JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[kursed]

RD-93MA and WS-13E share a lot of commonalities as well if I remember correctly. @Deino should know more about this.

 

[araz]

Next iteration of JF-17 with a more powerful engine may not be called Mark-IV, but it should be treated as such because that would be the pinnacle of JF-17 evolution.

I agree that J-10C acquisition has put a damper on the JF-17 project, but the planned milestones will not change.

I fully agree with you. If you look at the last article on JFT, why would we be evaluating the engine and be on the lookout for an IRST and placement if we were not planning a further block?
PAF has a history of exerting the maximum out of any programme, and given a Godsent opportunity like having a home grown programme which we can play around with a d develop at our own pace and not utilize it does not make any snese. We are in a region which remains volatile so there is a constant need to remain updated. We also have access to both Eastern and Western help to look at latest trendsand incorporate them. So I foresee progressive upgrades for the next 20 years and even after if nothing more we will replace our older versions with newer more capable versions of JFT.
A

 

[araz]

I would assume RD-93MA is still happening, it’s Probably just been delayed. Maybe once it’s ready they’ll start putting it on existing JF-17s (starting with block 3s?)
I’ve no doubt PAF will at least try to get a better engine for the JF-17 since that’s the biggest thing holding it back now, wether it’s the WS-13 or the RD-93 remains to be seen. But if the RD-93MA can be ready in time, it still may be the better option. Because it wouldn’t add another type of engine to the PAF considering it’s just an evolution Of the RD-93, otherwise the WS-13 is always an option.

Basically, it doesn’t matter what the better engine is, as long as it gets a better engine, I’d love to see a JF-17 do a Demo with that amount of thrust.

I want to go out on a limb and say that Imran Khan's latest visit to Russia, amongst other things, might be an ask for limited manufacturing of RD series in exchange for continuing to put it in the JFT. THE Chinese WS13 may be held as a bargaining chip to cajole the Russians into agreeing. Projecting another 2-300 engine contract is good business. 20-30% local manufacturing might put your foot into the engine manufacturing industry, so it can progress from there. Might help in refining the process with western input.
We already have local overhaul facilities but that might be the icing on the cake.
Just thought I might throw it out there to get a response.
A

PAF .. seemingly is betting heavily with Chinese systems across the board, given that view and the future of Sino-Pak ties, won't be surprised at all if they opt for WS-13 over 93MA.


Let's see, they're going big on Chinese systems across the board, older engines can always be replaced by WS-13 at the time of overhaul. Much like the F-16 program.

Sorry but can you explain your last sentnece. Are you talking about the uprating of the earlier block 15s or the new engines in 52s? Help appreciated.
Regards
A

 

[The Eagle]

While we talk about Engine upgrade for JF-17 Thunder, we need to remember that it is about NGF. Whatever comes as next engine for Thunder; we are going to benefit a lot for our NGF program. It is always about future & NGF. Pakistan is choosing wisey and has to play smart in this regard. In view of geopolitics and warming relations with new friends; we have embarked upon the journey. US has started to read it as well and I am not going into details. I will be thankful to a friend and then another new one to be taken into confidence hence, IK visit to Russia having lot of points to discuss. Has to wait for some words post visit.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[Ali_Baba]

As per the previous communication from a year or two ago, 30 Block-3As have been ordered. No further communication since then has come out.

As @Bilal Khan (Quwa) has mentioned a number of times on this forum that if Pakistan were to acquire the J-10s, then Block-3A order will be capped at 50. So in total, 188 will be produced for the PAF. Whether they'll produce Block-4 thereafter, remains to be seen.

Personally, in my humble opinion even 168-188 Thunders is a fairly large fleet for the PAF to maintain. Now if the ALCMs could be transferred from Mirages to J-10s, or if ALCMs could be made smaller to be carried by the JF-17s so there's no need for Mirages, then there's a chance that Mirages could be replaced by the Thunders. That could take the total JF-17 fleet strength with the PAF to 250+.

Here's the original forecast made by the ACM (I think) prior to the Block-3 acquisition:

Year​	Block​	Type​	Qty​	Block​	Type​	Qty​
2019​	2​	Bravo​	8​	​	​	​
2020​	2​	Bravo​	14​	3​	Alpha​	2​
2021​	2​	Bravo​	4​	3​	Alpha​	12​
2022​	​	​	​	3​	Alpha​	12​
2023​	​	​	​	3​	Alpha​	12​
2024​	​	​	​	3​	Alpha​	12​

The above forecast was made prior to the pandemic and the two JF-17 Thunders that crashed as follows:

Day	Date	Serial No.	Block	Type	State
Tuesday​	15 Sept 2020​	17-241​	2​	Alpha​	Crashed​
Friday​	6 Aug 2021​	Unknown​	2​	Bravo​	Crashed​

I cannot see the PAF winding down the fast jet manufacturing capabilities of PAC - esp given the uncertainty over what is "Azm" and the amount of effort required to set up fast jet manufacturing in the first place. The J10's do not come with TOT, they are off the shelf. Capping at Block III's at 50 means that manufacturing will run for another 18-24months - and to keep the lines open, there would have to be a significant uptick in export orders.

I am not discounting that the PAF/PAC will decide to wind down manufacturing - but if you look at how many Mushshaks they have made for PA/PN/PAF - ie far inexcess of what they would have - had they imported them - i really do see JF17 manufacturing ticking for while at a slower manufacturing rate(ie close some of the lines and keep others ticking over ).

 

[araz]

I cannot see the PAF winding down the fast jet manufacturing capabilities of PAC - esp given the uncertainty over what is "Azm" and the amount of effort required to set up fast jet manufacturing in the first place. The J10's do not come with TOT, they are off the shelf. Capping at Block III's at 50 means that manufacturing will run for another 18-24months - and to keep the lines open, there would have to be a significant uptick in export orders.

I am not discounting that the PAF/PAC will decide to wind down manufacturing - but if you look at how many Mushshaks they have made for PA/PN/PAF - ie far inexcess of what they would have - had they imported them - i really do see JF17 manufacturing ticking for while at a slower manufacturing rate(ie close some of the lines and keep others ticking over ).

Which is why the current output of 12/year makes sense.
A

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

I cannot see the PAF winding down the fast jet manufacturing capabilities of PAC - esp given the uncertainty over what is "Azm" and the amount of effort required to set up fast jet manufacturing in the first place. The J10's do not come with TOT, they are off the shelf. Capping at Block III's at 50 means that manufacturing will run for another 18-24months - and to keep the lines open, there would have to be a significant uptick in export orders.

I am not discounting that the PAF/PAC will decide to wind down manufacturing - but if you look at how many Mushshaks they have made for PA/PN/PAF - ie far inexcess of what they would have - had they imported them - i really do see JF17 manufacturing ticking for while at a slower manufacturing rate(ie close some of the lines and keep others ticking over ).

If they produce 12 this year as per the original forecast (like 11-13 produced over the previous 2-years in China/Pak), then I imagine PAF will induct at least 50 Block-3s.

Original order for Block-2As for PAF was also 50 but that was later enhanced to 62. Some say here, that was just to keep the production lines warm.

 

[Iron Shrappenel]

While we talk about Engine upgrade for JF-17 Thunder, we need to remember that it is about NGF. Whatever comes as next engine for Thunder; we are going to benefit a lot for our NGF program. It is always about future & NGF. Pakistan is choosing wisey and has to play smart in this regard. In view of geopolitics and warming relations with new friends; we have embarked upon the journey. US has started to read it as well and I am not going into details. I will be thankful to a friend and then another new one to be taken into confidence hence, IK visit to Russia having lot of points to discuss. Has to wait for some words post visit.

In light of recent developments of Pakistan joining TFX program... Do you think a Russian solution to the engine problem for both the JF-17 and TFX could be made ? What I'm trying to say is... RD-93MA for both B4 and PAK-TFX ( the turks wanted to coop with Ukraine in that matter) ?

Can anyone guide me to the relationship between super cruising and the engine of the aircraft ? .... I.e how much do the aerodynamics count if the engine is the necessity ? Can JF-17 have that ability in the long run ?

 

[princefaisal]

The thread " Russia would be developing upgraded engines (RD-93MA) for Pakistan's JF-17 fighters" started in July 2012 and after passing 10 years, this engine is not yet completed.

In July 2020, RD-93MA went through various tests (thermal chamber) in Russia but no news for its mass production commencement date.

 

[The Eagle]

In light of recent developments of Pakistan joining TFX program... Do you think a Russian solution to the engine problem for both the JF-17 and TFX could be made ? What I'm trying to say is... RD-93MA for both B4 and PAK-TFX ( the turks wanted to coop with Ukraine in that matter) ?

Can anyone guide me to the relationship between super cruising and the engine of the aircraft ? .... I.e how much do the aerodynamics count if the engine is the necessity ? Can JF-17 have that ability in the long run ?

Except for Thunder, I can't say about russian.emgines anymore. But let see as nothing is.clear as if yet.

 

[Big_bud]

In light of recent developments of Pakistan joining TFX program... Do you think a Russian solution to the engine problem for both the JF-17 and TFX could be made ? What I'm trying to say is... RD-93MA for both B4 and PAK-TFX ( the turks wanted to coop with Ukraine in that matter) ?

Can anyone guide me to the relationship between super cruising and the engine of the aircraft ? .... I.e how much do the aerodynamics count if the engine is the necessity ? Can JF-17 have that ability in the long run ?

RD 93MA might not cut it for TFX as dry thrust is not enough. I think an ideal engine would be with 70-75 dry and 120-125 KN wet thrust category.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Can three axis fly by wire make B3 more manureable than two axis fly by wire of B2?

 

[Trango Towers]

If you look at how many Mushshaks Pakistan has inducted - PAF will keep making them until it starts making something else so that it does not lose skill or experience. Dont be suprised if they end up hitting 300+.

And bring block 1 and 3 up to 3 standard

View attachment 813836

Oh man the smoke...as acombustion engineer this is really annoying. They can fix this. Not that difficult

 

[SABRE]

How many JF-17 is Pakistan planning in total? 200? 250?

At the least expect 188-200.