JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[SQ8]

With the JF-17's ground clearance, I think the issue is more that we lack appropriately sized munitions than anything to do with the JF-17 itself. The Ra'ad v1, for example, was designed for the Mirage III/5, and we did not take the JF-17 into account as, at that time, the JF-17 was not a near-term factor. Ditto for H2/H4.

However, with the Ra'ad 2, it seems like Pakistan is investing more in developing its SOW stack. There is a chance that the JF-17 may be able to carry it. The PAF can continue investing along these lines, e.g., look at a 'Ra'ad Lite' (similar to Turkey's SOM), new-gen glide bombs to replace H2/H4, and other ideas too (e.g., a SPEAR-like ALCM can help too if we can economize it). @JamD @SQ8

If the Americans allow the integration of the SOM with the vipers, the J-10’s may just be focused purely on Air Superiority.

Pakistan made a huge mistake(among many many others) by not capitalizing on the exodus from the cadre of ATLAS and Denel.

It made(kes) another mistake - having a few local preferred suppliers which continue to “win” contracts as there are few opportunities or incentives for new entrants in the market. Essentially, just like the Indian procurement system is suffers from a disease albeit different in nature.

I don’t think the PAF intends to equip the JF-17 with a longer range SOW as a priority and may be focused on the J-10CE and AZM platforms.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

If the Americans allow the integration of the SOM with the vipers, the J-10’s may just be focused purely on Air Superiority.

Pakistan made a huge mistake(among many many others) by not capitalizing on the exodus from the cadre of ATLAS and Denel.

It made(kes) another mistake - having a few local preferred suppliers which continue to “win” contracts as there are few opportunities or incentives for new entrants in the market. Essentially, just like the Indian procurement system is suffers from a disease albeit different in nature.

I don’t think the PAF intends to equip the JF-17 with a longer range SOW as a priority and may be focused on the J-10CE and AZM platforms.

We're on the verge of another similar exodus in Ukraine, e.g., Motor Sich et.al. Fortunately, it seems Turkey may end up netting a lot or most of them, so we could benefit (albeit as customers).

 

[PakFactor]

We're on the verge of another similar exodus in Ukraine, e.g., Motor Sich et.al. Fortunately, it seems Turkey may end up netting a lot or most of them, so we could benefit (albeit as customers).

The Chinese have taken an active role rolling out investment funds. I just don’t think Pakistan has the ability for this unless we offer an economic incentive to established a R&D Zone and Tax Free Package, and conditional or hiring and training Pakistanis.

 

[The Raven]

With the JF-17's ground clearance, I think the issue is more that we lack appropriately sized munitions than anything to do with the JF-17 itself. The Ra'ad v1, for example, was designed for the Mirage III/5, and we did not take the JF-17 into account as, at that time, the JF-17 was not a near-term factor. Ditto for H2/H4.

However, with the Ra'ad 2, it seems like Pakistan is investing more in developing its SOW stack. There is a chance that the JF-17 may be able to carry it. The PAF can continue investing along these lines, e.g., look at a 'Ra'ad Lite' (similar to Turkey's SOM), new-gen glide bombs to replace H2/H4, and other ideas too (e.g., a SPEAR-like ALCM can help too if we can economize it). @JamD @SQ8 @kursed

That said, for the PAF, the JF-17 is an MVP (Minimally Viable Product) in design and role. You'll notice that its precision-attack, anti-ship, long-range air-to-air, and so on are just enough to fight in our region. Now, as the region got more sophisticated, the PAF added more features to the JF-17 so as to maintain the MVP status (e.g., AESA radar, HMD/S, ECM, etc).

This situation is likely due to a lack of funds more than anything. If the PAF could "go ham" on the JF-17 by loading it up with bells and whistles, it would. In fact, when the fiscal situation was relatively better in the 2000s, the PAF spoke to Thales and MBDA for the RDY3, MICA and TopOwl.

Given the fact that the JF-17 has the CM-400AKG, REK bombs, ALARMs, C-802/3 and a slew of other weapons already integrated (you only need to look at airshow static displays) and the MIL standard bus architecture for potential further integration, it seems more than adaptable for most mission profiles. The Ra'ad 2 is PAF specific and seems like it has the JF-17 in mind given the alterations vs Ra'ad 1.

 

[SQ8]

We're on the verge of another similar exodus in Ukraine, e.g., Motor Sich et.al. Fortunately, it seems Turkey may end up netting a lot or most of them, so we could benefit (albeit as customers).

There is a cabal that has essentially got procurement and projects in its pocket and the commissions are ground away.

Unfortunately, that culture isn’t going away anytime. There is no harm in monopolies like Aselsan or Lockmart emerging - but then they have to be worth their salt and not led by people with limited visions.
Free market Capitalism has its benefits since it breeds competition - not the oligarchy running Pakistan top to bottom.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

There is a cabal that has essentially got procurement and projects in its pocket and the commissions are ground away.

Unfortunately, that culture isn’t going away anytime. There is no harm in monopolies like Aselsan or Lockmart emerging - but then they have to be worth their salt and not led by people with limited visions.
Free market Capitalism has its benefits since it breeds competition - not the oligarchy running Pakistan top to bottom.

Thing about Aselsan and LM is that their supply chains are full of domestic SMEs. So, even if Aselsan (or for that matter TAI, Roketsan, etc) get all of the contracts, they inject the bulk of the money back into the local economy.

In turn, those SMEs grow and, eventually, become self-sustaining by either supporting the supply chains of other companies, or by designing and selling their own products (e.g., Bayraktar TB2).

If PAC insists on milling its own screws, then there's zero chance of that SME growth in Pakistan. However, it's those SMEs that are critical for steering economic growth. The giant corporations (e.g., LM) actually emerge because of those SMEs (via IPOs or M&As).

In Pakistan, there's a chronic disrespect for SMEs. It started with ZAB's nationalization scheme, but it continued since then via gov't ambivalence to SME needs, an import culture, and straight-up corruption. I get the Pakistani people have their issues (e.g., they're drivers of the import culture), but the corrupt actors need a stick up their rears sooner than later. There's quite a bit of 'dead capital' in Pakistan, but it won't enter the economy until we eliminate the corruption. We kill the corruption, we'll actually see many billions in sustained domestically driven investment (plus expatriate investment) each year.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Free market Capitalism has its benefits since it breeds competition - not the oligarchy running Pakistan top to bottom.

Free market capitalism destroyed, and continues to destroy, Pakistan. It is a death sentence for small economies. Competition is needed only amidst moral decadence. Cultures that aim for excellence, Japan, Germany and Scandinavia for instance, do not look outwards for improvement. They set their own benchmarks.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

View attachment 753845

PAF does not operate a "010" registered JF-17 Thunder. It's either 110 or 210.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Free market capitalism destroyed, and continues to destroy, Pakistan. It is a death sentence for small economies. Competition is needed only amidst moral decadence. Cultures that aim for excellence, Japan, Germany and Scandinavia for instance, do not look outwards for improvement. They set their own benchmarks.

I'd say the issue with embracing Capitalism is that it's a total package. There's the economic side, but also the social and political side. If you give the latter two elements to Pakistanis, then I assure you, we'll run with it to the logical conclusion (i.e., we'll break Pakistan up into dozens of micro-states).

Whether our nature or culture, we are very selfish. In fact, a lot of the times it isn't even intentional, but it's just subconscious or a fact of life. We are generally entitled and think we deserve everything, and we'll do whatever it takes (within the rules provided to us) to get it, even if it means hurting ourselves, others, or the country.

In contrast, the Japanese, Chinese and Koreans are disciplined. They will not step out of line and will follow the rules both to the letter and, for bonus points (literally), in spirit. In the U.S., there's a culture of patriotism and collective killer instinct where folks want America to win, so they work together. There are similar strands in Sweden, France, Germany, etc.

In Pakistan, it's basically, "I need to be happy, but this guy needs to be sad that I'm happy, otherwise, I'm not happy." Or, "how do I get in on this scene?" and so on. Everyone's entitled to the maximum without giving up a thing (if possible). What happens to others is not their problem. So, things like courtesy, collective goals, etc don't click with us as much.

There needs to be a 'control' aspect to keep folks in check and hammer these values over 2-3 generations.

I'd say the model for us a natural market economy. Let folks trade, start and grow businesses, compete, and all that, but under a framework of rules that ensures liquidity keeps moving in the economy. That's the point -- we want the money to flow in the economy just as blood flows in the body. Right now, the money either flows out of the country or into land, and neither of the two help the domestic economy in the long-run.

 

[ghazi52]

 

[Windjammer]

 

[ghazi52]

 

[Bilal.]

Thing about Aselsan and LM is that their supply chains are full of domestic SMEs. So, even if Aselsan (or for that matter TAI, Roketsan, etc) get all of the contracts, they inject the bulk of the money back into the local economy.

In turn, those SMEs grow and, eventually, become self-sustaining by either supporting the supply chains of other companies, or by designing and selling their own products (e.g., Bayraktar TB2).

If PAC insists on milling its own screws, then there's zero chance of that SME growth in Pakistan. However, it's those SMEs that are critical for steering economic growth. The giant corporations (e.g., LM) actually emerge because of those SMEs (via IPOs or M&As).

In Pakistan, there's a chronic disrespect for SMEs. It started with ZAB's nationalization scheme, but it continued since then via gov't ambivalence to SME needs, an import culture, and straight-up corruption. I get the Pakistani people have their issues (e.g., they're drivers of the import culture), but the corrupt actors need a stick up their rears sooner than later. There's quite a bit of 'dead capital' in Pakistan, but it won't enter the economy until we eliminate the corruption. We kill the corruption, we'll actually see many billions in sustained domestically driven investment (plus expatriate investment) each year.

Nationalization is at the root of many evils in our economy and technological capability. I cannot even imagine what companies like BECO would be producing by now had the damn nationalization not killed them off. They would have given Samsung, Hanwha and the likes a run for their money…

 

[PakFactor]

Nationalization is at the root of many evils in our economy and technological capability. I cannot even imagine what companies like BECO would be producing by now had the damn nationalization not killed them off. They would have given Samsung, Hanwha and the likes a run for their money…

When I did my MBA in business school Kellogg School of Management (Northwestern University) in the U.S. BECO was used as a case study in one of the management courses, that's when I 1st had exposure to this company and it's eventual demise due to Bhutto.

The class was about organizational development and operations and BECO was held as a prime example for a developing nation.

This tells you even in the U.S. they had a close eye and study companies that perform well and teach those management skills which are then passed out to national/international companies. We had a gem in Pakistan, but completely ruined it.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Nationalization is at the root of many evils in our economy and technological capability. I cannot even imagine what companies like BECO would be producing by now had the damn nationalization not killed them off. They would have given Samsung, Hanwha and the likes a run for their money…

I can understand nationalization for natural resources. That's all natural stuff that no one 'made' and that the state is probably best equipped to extract, refine and sell them. In turn, the profits belong to the public, so we should have a mechanism that lets the public have a say in how to spend the proceeds. Otherwise, you'll end up selling the rights to the resources out to a foreign company and miss out on most of the benefits.

But this idea of nationalizing industrial SMEs (which is what ZAB did) was a malicious strike. It was simply a calculated hit disguised as a policy. Since then, we've built a culture of down-streaming the work of business to party workers and other 'stakeholders' who don't deserve anything. And we've completely deflated/killed domestic investor confidence (out of fear of a ZAB 2.0).

Another by-product of ZAB's "nationalization" scheme is the creation of opportunist politician "businessmen" like Nawaz Sharif. IMO, had Ittefaq Industries not been nationalized, then the likes of Nawaz Sharif wouldn't have entered politics or been a cog in our establishment. However, if you lose trust in the vitality of your economy, you're going to make ends meet in other ways, e.g., politics, bureaucracy, armed forces, etc.