JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[Bilal.]

When I did my MBA in business school Kellogg School of Management (Northwestern University) in the U.S. BECO was used as a case study in one of the management courses, that's when I 1st had exposure to this company and it's eventual demise due to Bhutto.

The class was about organizational development and operations and BECO was held as a prime example for a developing nation.

This tells you even in the U.S. they had a close eye and study companies that perform well and teach those management skills which are then passed out to national/international companies. We had a gem in Pakistan, but completely ruined it.

There is the tangible impact of industrial base that happened due to nationalization and then there was much more devastating intangible impact of our businessmen becoming risk averse rent seekers. We can’t even begin to quantify the loss due to this gimmick!

As for why US business school had and eye on BECO (one of many promising companies utterly destroyed by nationalization) you can see below. Just look at the number of head of state level visits to it:

Impact Of Nationalization On BECO And Pakistan Economic Development

There had been many times in Pakistan’s history when stupid decisions were taken by the government. Nationalization in Bhutto’s era was one of those decisions. 22 Families lost everythi…

anikakhan.wordpress.com

I can understand nationalization for natural resources. That's all natural stuff that no one 'made' and that the state is probably best equipped to extract, refine and sell them. In turn, the profits belong to the public, so we should have a mechanism that lets the public have a say in how to spend the proceeds. Otherwise, you'll end up selling the rights to the resources out to a foreign company and miss out on most of the benefits.

But this idea of nationalizing industrial SMEs (which is what ZAB did) was a malicious strike. It was simply a calculated hit disguised as a policy. Since then, we've built a culture of down-streaming the work of business to party workers and other 'stakeholders' who don't deserve anything. And we've completely deflated/killed domestic investor confidence (out of fear of a ZAB 2.0).

Exactly, like I said in my reply to PakFactor. We can’t even quantify the intangible impact of nationalization, i.e., the killing of our entrepreneurial spirit and turning our business folks into risk averse rent seekers.

 

[War Historian]

Thank to zinda bhutto. Who hunt down the BECO from engineering designing and innovation, they were looking to manufacture automobile in near future. And bhutto convert the company from BECO to PECO manufacturing cycles. What an achievement.

When I did my MBA in business school Kellogg School of Management (Northwestern University) in the U.S. BECO was used as a case study in one of the management courses, that's when I 1st had exposure to this company and it's eventual demise due to Bhutto.

The class was about organizational development and operations and BECO was held as a prime example for a developing nation.

This tells you even in the U.S. they had a close eye and study companies that perform well and teach those management skills which are then passed out to national/international companies. We had a gem in Pakistan, but completely ruined it.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

There is the tangible impact of industrial base that happened due to nationalization and then there was much more devastating intangible impact of our businessmen becoming risk averse rent seekers. We can’t even begin to quantify the loss due to this gimmick!

As for why US business school had and eye on BECO (one of many promising companies utterly destroyed by nationalization) you can see below. Just look at the number of head of state level visits to it:

Impact Of Nationalization On BECO And Pakistan Economic Development

There had been many times in Pakistan’s history when stupid decisions were taken by the government. Nationalization in Bhutto’s era was one of those decisions. 22 Families lost everythi…

anikakhan.wordpress.com

Pakistan was on track to the industrial development of East Asia. Combined with East Pakistan, the dominion was broadly on the way up.

On top of that, the Bengali speaking community had a positive impact on the rest of us too, and I think that 'blend' of industriousness and ambition was working out (until ZAB and Gen Yahya Khan decided to end it in the worst way possible).

Today, you see the industriousness in Bangladesh, but it's not connected to a sharp foreign policy position. Likewise, in Pakistan, you get the bluster of a sharp position, but no industriousness to back it up.

Woh humsafar tha couldn't have been truer to those really understood. @Bilal9 @UKBengali

 

[Bilal.]

Pakistan was on track to the industrial development of East Asia. Combined with East Pakistan, the dominion was broadly on the way up.

Relatively speaking, the Bengali speaking community had a positive impact on the rest of us too, and I think that 'blend' of industriousness and ambition was working out (until ZAB and Gen Yahya Khan decided to end it in the worst way possible).

Today, you see the industriousness in Bangladesh, but it's not connected to a sharp foreign policy position. Likewise, in Pakistan, you get the bluster of a sharp position, but no industriousness to back it up.

Woh humsafar tha couldn't have been truer to those really understood. @Bilal9 @UKBengali

Well. If you see many of the industrial groups were of the people from current Pakistan. For instance, BECO’s founder was of Punjabi origin. Many others were Punjabi and Urdu speaking background (Adamjee, Habib, Saigol, Valaika, etc.). What happened I believe was post-ZAB they simply lost the will to enterprise. When they bounced back a bit, they faced the kleptocracy of 1990s.

It’s a deep scare and trauma that hopefully will heal with the new generation that has no memory of all that taking control of the businesses.

 

[SQ8]

Free market capitalism destroyed, and continues to destroy, Pakistan. It is a death sentence for small economies. Competition is needed only amidst moral decadence. Cultures that aim for excellence, Japan, Germany and Scandinavia for instance, do not look outwards for improvement. They set their own benchmarks.

Ok - what inwards looking best practices have Pakistanis brought and can implement?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Ok - what inwards looking best practices have Pakistanis brought and can implement?

the hope of the century

 

[SQ8]

I'd say the issue with embracing Capitalism is that it's a total package. There's the economic side, but also the social and political side. If you give the latter two elements to Pakistanis, then I assure you, we'll run with it to the logical conclusion (i.e., we'll break Pakistan up into dozens of micro-states).

Whether our nature or culture, we are very selfish. In fact, a lot of the times it isn't even intentional, but it's just subconscious or a fact of life. We are generally entitled and think we deserve everything, and we'll do whatever it takes (within the rules provided to us) to get it, even if it means hurting ourselves, others, or the country.

In contrast, the Japanese, Chinese and Koreans are disciplined. They will not step out of line and will follow the rules both to the letter and, for bonus points (literally), in spirit. In the U.S., there's a culture of patriotism and collective killer instinct where folks want America to win, so they work together. There are similar strands in Sweden, France, Germany, etc.

In Pakistan, it's basically, "I need to be happy, but this guy needs to be sad that I'm happy, otherwise, I'm not happy." Or, "how do I get in on this scene?" and so on. Everyone's entitled to the maximum without giving up a thing (if possible). What happens to others is not their problem. So, things like courtesy, collective goals, etc don't click with us as much.

There needs to be a 'control' aspect to keep folks in check and hammer these values over 2-3 generations.

I'd say the model for us a natural market economy. Let folks trade, start and grow businesses, compete, and all that, but under a framework of rules that ensures liquidity keeps moving in the economy. That's the point -- we want the money to flow in the economy just as blood flows in the body. Right now, the money either flows out of the country or into land, and neither of the two help the domestic economy in the long-run.

Apply that to the rumor mill that raiwind wanted to produce F-16s and the overall mindset emerges. If one development house whose expertise really lies in radios for instance is able to get into a contract for a standoff weapons dispenser then how effective will they really be?

Yes, as an engineer Ive worked on a variety of different projects but everytime the team leader or another team member was a SME. Not someone handing you a publication for a guidance system and asking you to master it. No matter how brilliant you are - that first attempt might make you a SME by the end of the project, but the output of that project will not be a class leading product.

 

[SQ8]

the hope of the century

View attachment 758187

They’ve done it when part of multinationals and working outside of the cultural cancer. Within the same mindsets and closed loop system they have not achieved anything of repute in product development process or overall industry strategy either - and before we get the positive brigade in - there isn’t going to be change because those that profiting from this system have already closed their ends to keep the business within their circles. They do it by delivering a working(not a good) product and having their champions(on payroll) on the decision boards.

Does this not happen in corporate North America or government north America? Heck yes it does and Ive experienced it myself - but the checks and balances along with system supported assistance for small and medium enterprises ensures that such under the table dealing and oligarchies don’t survive for long.

 

[Bilal9]

Pakistan was on track to the industrial development of East Asia. Combined with East Pakistan, the dominion was broadly on the way up.

On top of that, the Bengali speaking community had a positive impact on the rest of us too, and I think that 'blend' of industriousness and ambition was working out (until ZAB and Gen Yahya Khan decided to end it in the worst way possible).

Today, you see the industriousness in Bangladesh, but it's not connected to a sharp foreign policy position. Likewise, in Pakistan, you get the bluster of a sharp position, but no industriousness to back it up.

Woh humsafar tha couldn't have been truer to those really understood. @Bilal9 @UKBengali

Wise words brother, agree 100%.

if ZAB and Yahya Khan had chosen to 'handle' the situation with the Sheikh, instead of giving in to other impulses and less than optimal ways then chosen, things would have been different and Pakistan would have been a worthy contender to India in all spheres, just not in a military sense. Indian saajish could have been halted.

But all that is water under the bridge, reality in subcontinent will again present itself with new opportunities, it will be up to all nations to rise and respond to those new challenges and opportunities, of friendship, of a path to development.

Only those nations who choose wisely, will be rewarded with a better future for their populace.

For the future - for Bangladesh (and dare I say Pakistan as well) there is no substitute to export-led growth.

I have seen old BECO bikes in Bangladesh. Bicycle Industry (also motorcycles) are one of the first industrial sectors that any developing country like Bangladesh or Pakistan needs to develop to provide export jobs to their populace.

East Pakistan saw many entrepreneurs come in from the West to invest such as Adamjees, Ispahanis. Ispahanis are still here and head a major conglomerate, tea export is one of their main businesses.

In Bangladesh there have been bicycle manufacture since Pakistan times. Nowadays, that industry has moved a bit upmarket, where they manufacture bikes with (for example) Chromoly alloy lightweight frames (also soon, fibreglass frames) for different styles such as Mountain, hybrid and Road-racing bikes.

There are half a dozen companies involved in this sector and maybe 30% or so of the output is exported. As volume of exports go up, local manufacture of derailleurs, brake components and gearsets will also come in.

Motorcycle sector is also as large as the bicycle sector, as most of the local buyers can afford more motorbikes rather than bikes. In any case, I won't bore folks any further.

 

[RAMPAGE]

Ok - what inwards looking best practices have Pakistanis brought and can implement?

If they had, I would have put Pakistan on that list. The absence of a virtue should elicit the aim to acquire it, not its abandonment. Substituting something so low and pernicious as free market capitalism, as a stick to beat out higher quality products and services, for culture-building measures is very far from what the country needs.

A much better solution would be to encourage the development of local SMEs, as Bilal always reminds us and I concur, and arrange exchanges and collaboration between SMEs from Japan and Germany for the purposes of culture transfer - mainly the culture of striving towards excellence. The government can also arrange competitions which judge and reward ingenuity and craftsmanship and which assuredly lead to greater public-sector orders from high-performing SMEs. We need culture transfers much more than we need technology transfers.

A good relationship with a country like Japan may just be more profitable for Pakistan than its current relationship with China.

 

[PakFactor]

Well. If you see many of the industrial groups were of the people from current Pakistan. For instance, BECO’s founder was of Punjabi origin. Many others were Punjabi and Urdu speaking background (Adamjee, Habib, Saigol, Valaika, etc.). What happened I believe was post-ZAB they simply lost the will to enterprise. When they bounced back a bit, they faced the kleptocracy of 1990s.

It’s a deep scare and trauma that hopefully will heal with the new generation that has no memory of all that taking control of the businesses.

If I remember correctly, I researched that Gen Zia offered Choudri Mohammed Latif his facilities back with additional funds to jump start his operations. Gen Zia agreed to give it back as the same way he gave back Ittefaq Industries to Nawaz Sharif father. Tragedy struck Gen Zia passed away and the promise went unfulfilled.

But as luck would have it we ended up with Nawaz and not CM Latif (sometimes I feel God purposely spits our face at time).

Download the BECO Book from the link below (very informative and good read Pages 201 shows before and after BECO/PECO asset and liability). It's free.

becopeco.com

 

[Bilal.]

If I remember correctly, I researched that Gen Zia offered Choudri Mohammed Latif his facilities back with additional funds to jump start his operations. Gen Zia agreed to give it back as the same way he gave back Ittefaq Industries to Nawaz Sharif father. Tragedy struck Gen Zia passed away and the promise went unfulfilled.

But as luck would have it we ended up with Nawaz and not CM Latif (sometimes I feel God purposely spits our face at time).

Download the BECO Book from the link below (very informative and good read Pages 201 shows before and after BECO/PECO asset and liability). It's free.

becopeco.com

Thank you, will go through it. Imagine they were doing diesel engines back in the 60s. Can’t even imagine what they would have accomplished by now.

 

[MAB]

View attachment 758115

The light nose looks so much better than the dark ones. The latter make it look dated.

 

[Falcon26]

There is the tangible impact of industrial base that happened due to nationalization and then there was much more devastating intangible impact of our businessmen becoming risk averse rent seekers. We can’t even begin to quantify the loss due to this gimmick!

As for why US business school had and eye on BECO (one of many promising companies utterly destroyed by nationalization) you can see below. Just look at the number of head of state level visits to it:

Impact Of Nationalization On BECO And Pakistan Economic Development

There had been many times in Pakistan’s history when stupid decisions were taken by the government. Nationalization in Bhutto’s era was one of those decisions. 22 Families lost everythi…

anikakhan.wordpress.com

Exactly, like I said in my reply to PakFactor. We can’t even quantify the intangible impact of nationalization, i.e., the killing of our entrepreneurial spirit and turning our business folks into risk averse rent seekers.

The astonishing thing is that a lot of these companies were run by families that left everything in India and believed in Jinnah’s vision. They were motivated by profit, obviously, but also by higher commitment to Pakistan and the ideal crafted by Jinnah.

The PPP’s destruction of these companies was simply a treasonous strike. The PPP destroyed Pakistan three times: 1) when it refused to accept Mujib u Rehman’s electoral victory and dragging of the military into a fight against its people, leading to the dismemberment of Pakistan, 2) when it nationalized, and destroyed, nascent companies that were propelling Pakistan’s rise as an Asian tiger, and 3) by gifting Pakistan Zardari and the man-child Bilawal.

 

[Bilal.]

The astonishing thing is that a lot of these companies were run by families that left everything in India and believed in Jinnah’s vision. They were motivated by profit, obviously, but also by higher commitment to Pakistan and the ideal crafted by Jinnah.

The PPP’s destruction of these companies was simply a treasonous strike. The PPP destroyed Pakistan three times: 1) when it refused to accept Mujib u Rehman’s electoral victory and dragging of the military into a fight against its people, leading to the dismemberment of Pakistan, 2) when it nationalized, and destroyed, nascent companies that were propelling Pakistan’s rise as an Asian tiger, and 3) by gifting Pakistan Zardari and the man-child Bilawal.

Sadly, Chaudary M Lateef mar gaya. Par Bhutto zinda hai