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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

My analysis is as follows, but note of caution: there are too many variables so take this with a grain of salt

It makes logical sense that the design of Block 3 will not be finalized until the first Rafale has landed in India and intelligence becomes available on the capabilities. I do expect prototypes to fly before then.

Once intel is available, the design will be frozen to provide max advantage possible against Indian capabilities. After that, the question of filling the gap will come. Depending on cost/benefit analysis, a third fighter may be procured, or status quo maintained.

Azm is a 5th gen project, per ACM Sohail Aman. This is an authentic source, but I do have reservations about jumping straight into a 5th gen design without any previous, independent, and successful effort. It simply doesn't make any sense, except if some Pakistani engineers have been receiving training in some corner of China.

I really cannot say what Azm will look like, but it makes sense to utilize what we have today as a base, and build on top of it. Putting LO features on Thunder, especially diamond nose, high sweep angle tail etc makes sense from the point of gaining valuable experience. The design should be taken through a few test and validation loops so our designers start to get a sense for the niceties of stealth design. This would be the logical path if indigenous capability is sought. And the thing is, PAC has been manufacturing for a decade now. That is a long time for some of the above to have been accomplished already. It is not necessary that things are put into motion only after the announcement.

In any case, there is also the chance of a bigger Chinese - and even Turkish! - input. Personally, I do not like this because I want PAC to develop indigenous capability.

In terms of requirements, it is clear that India is targeting 5th gen. Whether in the form of Russian or American fighter, or even a mixture of both, they have set their sights. It is natural that PAF will be looking for the counter.

It is difficult to ascertain PAF's 5th gen philosophy. Currently, there are a few competing ones in the world: Russians favoring manoeuverability and speed, Americans having a mix of stealth and performance, and the Chinese in the process of formulating their philosopgy but it looks like they are leaning towards the American option.

My ideal is to have both in inventory: pure performance (Su-57) and stealth + performance (F-22) Of course that is just fantasy.

Here are my controversial views. Stealth is 90s technology. As sensors keep getting better, stealth will be beaten. The future is meta materials which are still being researched. Performance and agility can be used to break radar locks - move so randomly that radar cannot track you. Beat the opponent's BVR advantage and close the gap to WVR where speed and agility rule. Breaking the BVR advantage can and will also involve EW. Passive radars and AEWACs will be extremely crucial.

That's my two cents. I am looking to see what the PAF commanders think.
 
Here is my controversial idea. Let India purchase a follow up order to the 32 Rafales they have bought and then go ahead and place an order for 18 or so yourself. French will have no reason not to sell additional aircraft to us as India would have already ordered their jets and wont have any real leverage over the French not to sell us the same aircraft. After all, what could in the IAF do? Stop buying spares for their fleet? But in turn we would be able to know everything there is to know about the top of line Indian fighter as well, except we would only have a squadron worth while they would have sunk in a lot more in their fleet
 
Here is my controversial idea. Let India purchase a follow up order to the 32 Rafales they have bought and then go ahead and place an order for 18 or so yourself. French will have no reason not to sell additional aircraft to us as India would have already ordered their jets and wont have any real leverage over the French not to sell us the same aircraft. After all, what could in the IAF do? Stop buying spares for their fleet? But in turn we would be able to know everything there is to know about the top of line Indian fighter as well, except we would only have a squadron worth while they would have sunk in a lot more in their fleet

We need only 3. In any case in envisage a long luxurious exercise with Qatar once they get their hands on them.
 
My analysis is as follows, but note of caution: there are too many variables so take this with a grain of salt

It makes logical sense that the design of Block 3 will not be finalized until the first Rafale has landed in India and intelligence becomes available on the capabilities. I do expect prototypes to fly before then.

Once intel is available, the design will be frozen to provide max advantage possible against Indian capabilities. After that, the question of filling the gap will come. Depending on cost/benefit analysis, a third fighter may be procured, or status quo maintained.

Azm is a 5th gen project, per ACM Sohail Aman. This is an authentic source, but I do have reservations about jumping straight into a 5th gen design without any previous, independent, and successful effort. It simply doesn't make any sense, except if some Pakistani engineers have been receiving training in some corner of China.

I really cannot say what Azm will look like, but it makes sense to utilize what we have today as a base, and build on top of it. Putting LO features on Thunder, especially diamond nose, high sweep angle tail etc makes sense from the point of gaining valuable experience. The design should be taken through a few test and validation loops so our designers start to get a sense for the niceties of stealth design. This would be the logical path if indigenous capability is sought. And the thing is, PAC has been manufacturing for a decade now. That is a long time for some of the above to have been accomplished already. It is not necessary that things are put into motion only after the announcement.

In any case, there is also the chance of a bigger Chinese - and even Turkish! - input. Personally, I do not like this because I want PAC to develop indigenous capability.

In terms of requirements, it is clear that India is targeting 5th gen. Whether in the form of Russian or American fighter, or even a mixture of both, they have set their sights. It is natural that PAF will be looking for the counter.

It is difficult to ascertain PAF's 5th gen philosophy. Currently, there are a few competing ones in the world: Russians favoring manoeuverability and speed, Americans having a mix of stealth and performance, and the Chinese in the process of formulating their philosopgy but it looks like they are leaning towards the American option.

My ideal is to have both in inventory: pure performance (Su-57) and stealth + performance (F-22) Of course that is just fantasy.

Here are my controversial views. Stealth is 90s technology. As sensors keep getting better, stealth will be beaten. The future is meta materials which are still being researched. Performance and agility can be used to break radar locks - move so randomly that radar cannot track you. Beat the opponent's BVR advantage and close the gap to WVR where speed and agility rule. Breaking the BVR advantage can and will also involve EW. Passive radars and AEWACs will be extremely crucial.

That's my two cents. I am looking to see what the PAF commanders think.


I think Project Azm most likey will be collaboration With Turkey because when it started there were news that Turkey inviting Pakistan to join the 5th gen project.PAF right now no way near to produce indigenous designs but Studies are happening in kamra complex and scientist did went to china for JF-17 design it will going to take time. So I think 6th gen or 7th gen will PAF indigenous designs not 5th gen.Let's hope for the best.

yes Stealth is 90s technology but point is less visibility on radar. S400 can detect and kill F-22 or F-35 but point is to make it harder for them.

I don't think PAF need to gather information on Rafale because Some of it's pilots already flown Rafale. As for JF-17 Block 3 is concerned it going to be landing before Rafale is given to India because I think PAF going to bulid JF-17 block 4 too and there is one more indicator here

33522430_1516474641813562_1043087701810610176_n.jpg

On May 28 2010, Pakistan successfully launched production of avionics and other important gadgets for JF-17 Thunder fighter jets at Pakistan Aeronautical Complex #PAC #Kamra, #Pakistan.
#JF17 Thunder is developed by #Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation under a JV btw Pakistan and#China
 
My analysis is as follows, but note of caution: there are too many variables so take this with a grain of salt

It makes logical sense that the design of Block 3 will not be finalized until the first Rafale has landed in India and intelligence becomes available on the capabilities. I do expect prototypes to fly before then.

Once intel is available, the design will be frozen to provide max advantage possible against Indian capabilities. After that, the question of filling the gap will come. Depending on cost/benefit analysis, a third fighter may be procured, or status quo maintained.

Azm is a 5th gen project, per ACM Sohail Aman. This is an authentic source, but I do have reservations about jumping straight into a 5th gen design without any previous, independent, and successful effort. It simply doesn't make any sense, except if some Pakistani engineers have been receiving training in some corner of China.

I really cannot say what Azm will look like, but it makes sense to utilize what we have today as a base, and build on top of it. Putting LO features on Thunder, especially diamond nose, high sweep angle tail etc makes sense from the point of gaining valuable experience. The design should be taken through a few test and validation loops so our designers start to get a sense for the niceties of stealth design. This would be the logical path if indigenous capability is sought. And the thing is, PAC has been manufacturing for a decade now. That is a long time for some of the above to have been accomplished already. It is not necessary that things are put into motion only after the announcement.

In any case, there is also the chance of a bigger Chinese - and even Turkish! - input. Personally, I do not like this because I want PAC to develop indigenous capability.

In terms of requirements, it is clear that India is targeting 5th gen. Whether in the form of Russian or American fighter, or even a mixture of both, they have set their sights. It is natural that PAF will be looking for the counter.

It is difficult to ascertain PAF's 5th gen philosophy. Currently, there are a few competing ones in the world: Russians favoring manoeuverability and speed, Americans having a mix of stealth and performance, and the Chinese in the process of formulating their philosopgy but it looks like they are leaning towards the American option.

My ideal is to have both in inventory: pure performance (Su-57) and stealth + performance (F-22) Of course that is just fantasy.

Here are my controversial views. Stealth is 90s technology. As sensors keep getting better, stealth will be beaten. The future is meta materials which are still being researched. Performance and agility can be used to break radar locks - move so randomly that radar cannot track you. Beat the opponent's BVR advantage and close the gap to WVR where speed and agility rule. Breaking the BVR advantage can and will also involve EW. Passive radars and AEWACs will be extremely crucial.

That's my two cents. I am looking to see what the PAF commanders think.
One of the core reasons I am skeptical on steath in next decade; i see this present advantage being nullified given the progress being made in the field of AI/ANN/CNN - wont be surprised if there is already research being done how to leverage this for signal analysis.
 
One of the core reasons I am skeptical on steath in next decade; i see this present advantage being nullified given the progress being made in the field of AI/ANN/CNN - wont be surprised if there is already research being done how to leverage this for signal analysis.
There is a rule of thumb in weaponology, "Countermeasures are always Easy"
 
Interesting CGI and fan art ?

Someone on the forum did mention that intakes will be enlarged and changes on the rear fuselage will occur. So very plausible resemblance on what we could expect, but with single stabilizer.

So a enlarged Thunder with more thrust looks very possible.

images

Computer%2Bgenerated%2Bimages%2Bof%2Bstealth%2Bversion%2Bof%2BSino-Pak%2BJF-17%2Bfighter%2B6.jpg

Computer%2Bgenerated%2Bimages%2Bof%2Bstealth%2Bversion%2Bof%2BSino-Pak%2BJF-17%2Bfighter%2B4.jpg

Computer%2Bgenerated%2Bimages%2Bof%2Bstealth%2Bversion%2Bof%2BSino-Pak%2BJF-17%2Bfighter%2B1.jpg
24o7gc7.jpg



Also a Chinese poster stated on Quora that Russian and Chinese are both working together on WS-13E development to be ready in 2019 and it's a two way transfer of expertise as some of the R&D going back into the RD-33 series. Will have greater thrust and reduced weight as well as longer service life and time between overhauls. Coincidentally RD-93MA/RD-33MKM/RD-33MKP also expected to complete development in 2019. Both powerplant options becoming available in 2019 is probably why the Blk-3 is slated for 2019 as well. Seems PAF will have two engine suppliers offering similar products.

https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?133324-RuAF-News-and-development-Thread-part-14/page9
4894edde07ec.jpg
 
Last edited:
Interesting CGI and fan art ?

Someone on the forum did mention that intakes will be enlarged and changes on the rear fuselage will occur. So very plausible resemblance on what we could expect, but with single stabilizer.

So a enlarged Thunder with more thrust looks very possible.

images

Computer%2Bgenerated%2Bimages%2Bof%2Bstealth%2Bversion%2Bof%2BSino-Pak%2BJF-17%2Bfighter%2B6.jpg

Computer%2Bgenerated%2Bimages%2Bof%2Bstealth%2Bversion%2Bof%2BSino-Pak%2BJF-17%2Bfighter%2B4.jpg

Computer%2Bgenerated%2Bimages%2Bof%2Bstealth%2Bversion%2Bof%2BSino-Pak%2BJF-17%2Bfighter%2B1.jpg
24o7gc7.jpg



Also a Chinese poster stated on Quora that Russian and Chinese are both working together on WS-13E development to be ready in 2019 and it's a two way transfer of expertise as some of the R&D going back into the RD-33 series. Will have greater thrust and reduced weight as well as longer service life and time between overhauls. Coincidentally RD-93MA/RD-33MKM/RD-33MKP also expected to complete development in 2019. Both powerplant options becoming available in 2019 is probably why the Blk-3 is slated for 2019 as well. Seems PAF will have two engine suppliers offering similar products.

https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?133324-RuAF-News-and-development-Thread-part-14/page9
4894edde07ec.jpg

Always love reading your posts, what excellent finds. Just a small note: I thought the changes were supposed to be on the front fuselage not the rear. However, the clipped wings and semi-recessed AAMs look great. At first blow I thought this is the Azm...
 
Always love reading your posts, what excellent finds. Just a small note: I thought the changes were supposed to be on the front fuselage not the rear. However, the clipped wings and semi-recessed AAMs look great. At first blow I thought this is the Azm...
If you look at Jf 17 B, then alot of changes were done to the rear (swept back stabiliser and fully composite tail) and wings (larger).
The idea of a stealthy JF 17 is not too far fetched considering that the US once considered a similar development of the F15:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_F-15SE_Silent_Eagle
 
Interesting CGI and fan art ?

Someone on the forum did mention that intakes will be enlarged and changes on the rear fuselage will occur. So very plausible resemblance on what we could expect, but with single stabilizer.

So a enlarged Thunder with more thrust looks very possible.

images

Computer%2Bgenerated%2Bimages%2Bof%2Bstealth%2Bversion%2Bof%2BSino-Pak%2BJF-17%2Bfighter%2B6.jpg

Computer%2Bgenerated%2Bimages%2Bof%2Bstealth%2Bversion%2Bof%2BSino-Pak%2BJF-17%2Bfighter%2B4.jpg

Computer%2Bgenerated%2Bimages%2Bof%2Bstealth%2Bversion%2Bof%2BSino-Pak%2BJF-17%2Bfighter%2B1.jpg
24o7gc7.jpg



Also a Chinese poster stated on Quora that Russian and Chinese are both working together on WS-13E development to be ready in 2019 and it's a two way transfer of expertise as some of the R&D going back into the RD-33 series. Will have greater thrust and reduced weight as well as longer service life and time between overhauls. Coincidentally RD-93MA/RD-33MKM/RD-33MKP also expected to complete development in 2019. Both powerplant options becoming available in 2019 is probably why the Blk-3 is slated for 2019 as well. Seems PAF will have two engine suppliers offering similar products.

https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?133324-RuAF-News-and-development-Thread-part-14/page9
4894edde07ec.jpg
a small F35 look .... in more beautifull.
 
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