JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[My-Analogous]

if you really want to know how capable F-16s are and why even MM alam on his first flight on falcon fell in love with , then enter NDU . You will be given lessons on its greatness.. our pilots are addicted to F-16s . It is the most agile aircraft in the world. So far all of war history of F-16s , and red flag and other exercises results are proof of greatness of F-16 . It even locked F-35A. Wha5 else do you dream to have ? i still wish we buy more block 52+(block 60 preferred ) and raise total number to at least 112. There is no point on inducting J-10B now coz the engine facility , new trainers , a decade of training for experience (by which this aircraft will start losing its touch in modern warfare) , new platform costs and all expenses. The best option i would suggest is Get 5th Gen for air superiority (J-20 preferred ; Dont cry about no export. You will get it if you will pay plus interests in pak that china has ) and some more block 52 and possible thunder strength to 200

Yes you are right and for next 200 years we will use F16 and nothing else. Even US must learn from us how to fly f16 and let it go F35 and F22 programs. F16 can do all the jobs

 

[WarFariX]

Yes you are right and for next 200 years we will use F16 and nothing else. Even US must learn from us how to fly f16 and let it go F35 and F22 programs. F16 can do all the jobs

my request to you me fellow brother , please do try to meet some PAF F-16 pilots and interview them . Offcourse you like any other pakistani including me wants to see some really new capable platforms which is restriction free however if you for a moment think as an ACM , believe me you will get headache , even PAF is stuck on F-16s because they know that getting f16 was somewhere bad decision due to unfair sanctions and no upgrades . If PAF goes back 30 years , then they wouldnt repeat the mistake and rather go for J-10 . I would only tell you one small sentence which would be enuogh for your thirst " If PAF knew that J-10 with scheduled upgrades program had been there even before thunder program and if they knew how much capable it was then they wouldnt have initiated the thunder project and would have rather scraped the f16s till they had lasted. " Current focus as all of us think is on 5th gen i know PAF would get platforms this time with no previous mistakes of bad selection..aap sirf kuch saal ruk jaao .J-10 , J-11D , SU-35 , EFT sab kuch ko ap kachra kahoge

 

[My-Analogous]

my request to you me fellow brother , please do try to meet some PAF F-16 pilots and interview them . Offcourse you like any other pakistani including me wants to see some really new capable platforms which is restriction free however if you for a moment think as an ACM , believe me you will get headache , even PAF is stuck on F-16s because they know that getting f16 was somewhere bad decision due to unfair sanctions and no upgrades . If PAF goes back 30 years , then they wouldnt repeat the mistake and rather go for J-10 . I would only tell you one small sentence which would be enuogh for your thirst " If PAF knew that J-10 with scheduled upgrades program had been there even before thunder program and if they knew how much capable it was then they wouldnt have initiated the thunder project and would have rather scraped the f16s till they had lasted. " Current focus as all of us think is on 5th gen i know PAF would get platforms this time with no previous mistakes of bad selection..aap sirf kuch saal ruk jaao .J-10 , J-11D , SU-35 , EFT sab kuch ko ap kachra kahoge

Still we have plenty of solutions to rectify the problem.

1. We can sell this complete F16 birds with service contract (given us good money) and buy J10 from China. For that we send our pilots to China for 6 months to 1 year training program and then ask China to give us at least two squadron before start selling F16 and we order 150 jets and may be have to pay only 3 to 5 billions and all brand new fighter we will have have for next 25 years. When it reach 5 Squadron then we return them 1 squadron each year back the 2 squadron used one.
   
2. If US sells F16 to India then we go to China for J10 and replace 76 F16 with 150 J10. Since it is only big things US give us in last 60 years.

 

[lovepakaramy]

I already mentioned we cannot sustain a conventional arms race with India.
As for the calculations are, I don't speak for the ACM- but I do have confidence in the air staff who have decades of air forces experience and years of air warfare studies and analysis education.

Then you are repeating the same question on the money when I have already outlined we are short of despite all conspiracy claims here- tell me something, did you know the exact figure of how much interest you have been charged for the Erieye Awacs or fhe loans for tr JF-16 project?
I can bet you don't but you are phrasing your statements as if you were the one who signed off on the budget.
I can understand your frustration but at this time you are sounding like certain seculars who rant on the Quran being a violent book when they haven't even bothered to read more than one ayat of it.

You asked a very ascerbic question on the forces being focused on retirement, from where and how did you gauge that statement? Do you have a source? An article, a survey?
Ask the folks who die in Siachen, Waziristan or died when a bird struck their aircraft on takeoff or their base was attacked.

There are good and bad apples everywhere but to give blanket statements because some idiotic seniors do it to get attention is not a good way to start.

There are those that engage in corruption within the armed forces and those that fight them. It is impossible to negate the human nature without a change in society, and the people who make up Pakistan military are no different than their counterparts in the streets. Most are honest, some are not.


You are needlessly degrading the F-16 because someone has put in your mind that it is an inferior asset. If you have researched its capabilities and knowing exactly what they are you have concluded that it does not hve any chance, then we can discuss further- but if you are basing it on someone's personal and technically lacking opinions- then I can't change your mind.

Hi,
Sir i never mentioned anywhere that F16 is inferior, yes its awesome jet but what we have are that really that good to fight? my question and problem is only with old junks as our ACM and is looking for, old F16.
why they don't ask for new F16 Block 52 or 60 (V) class?
we can't cry always for money.. this is what i meant.

Yes we have best pilots in world and they always proved that they are best, but with what? old f16? which is upgraded to level 40/45 thats it?

Sir you are very senior member here and i never meant to argue with you by any mean as you have great knowledge of Mil forces which i don't have. i would say not a 1% .

thanks.

if you really want to know how capable F-16s are and why even MM alam on his first flight on falcon fell in love with , then enter NDU . You will be given lessons on its greatness.. our pilots are addicted to F-16s . It is the most agile aircraft in the world. So far all of war history of F-16s , and red flag and other exercises results are proof of greatness of F-16 . It even locked F-35A. Wha5 else do you dream to have ? i still wish we buy more block 52+(block 60 preferred ) and raise total number to at least 112. There is no point on inducting J-10B now coz the engine facility , new trainers , a decade of training for experience (by which this aircraft will start losing its touch in modern warfare) , new platform costs and all expenses. The best option i would suggest is Get 5th Gen for air superiority (J-20 preferred ; Dont cry about no export. You will get it if you will pay plus interests in pak that china has ) and some more block 52 and possible thunder strength to 200

Dear, i never attached or got personal with anyone here, i just said simple thing what you just have written in your above post.. we should by some potent blocks. i don't have any issue with f16 but old f16 crap is simply useless...

and don't forget what we can face after getting more f16 during war.... Uncle sam is not easy to deal with.
they can put sanction any moment during war.. so trust them is BIG NO..
and like you said j10b.. engine and all.. don't forget china is dependent on that jet for now just like US depend on F16.
China inducting this jet on big numbers.. so why can't we go with this jet... J20 is out of question here as its not yet ready if i am not mistaken and Most importantly Its not for export... atleast not before china induct this jet to fill their requirements. than maybe we can request/ask them for J20.

Thanks.

 

[WarFariX]

Still we have plenty of solutions to rectify the problem.

1. We can sell this complete F16 birds with service contract (given us good money) and buy J10 from China. For that we send our pilots to China for 6 months to 1 year training program and then ask China to give us at least two squadron before start selling F16 and we order 150 jets and may be have to pay only 3 to 5 billions and all brand new fighter we will have have for next 25 years. When it reach 5 Squadron then we return them 1 squadron each year back the 2 squadron used one.
   
2. If US sells F16 to India then we go to China for J10 and replace 76 F16 with 150 J10. Since it is only big things US give us in last 60 years.

khareede ga kon f16..itna asaan kam nai jitna ap samajh rahe ho .dunya 5th gen par jarahi hai mere bhai , aur ap abhi 4+ gen khareedne ko kehrahe ho . remember one thing , we are PAKISTAN and we are one of the weak economy country . We are not USA , RUSSIA , CHINA , INDIA , JAPAN . We cant afford easily as much as they can...we must divert our funds towards 5th gen as soon as possible which is happening i think so..this is the best step
INDIA will never ever buy F-16s , it needs local production line which trump wont give coz he needs jobs for his own people so IF even india gets serious for more MRCA then gripen is what they will go gripen no doubt...gripen needs customers and they will readily give license production

Hi,
Sir i never mentioned anywhere that F16 is inferior, yes its awesome jet but what we have are that really that good to fight? my question and problem is only with old junks as our ACM and is looking for, old F16.
why they don't ask for new F16 Block 52 or 60 (V) class?
we can't cry always for money.. this is what i meant.

Yes we have best pilots in world and they always proved that they are best, but with what? old f16? which is upgraded to level 40/45 thats it?

Sir you are very senior member here and i never meant to argue with you by any mean as you have great knowledge of Mil forces which i don't have. i would say not a 1% .

thanks.


Dear, i never attached or got personal with anyone here, i just said simple thing what you just have written in your above post.. we should by some potent blocks. i don't have any issue with f16 but old f16 crap is simply useless...

and don't forget what we can face after getting more f16 during war.... Uncle sam is not easy to deal with.
they can put sanction any moment during war.. so trust them is BIG NO..
and like you said j10b.. engine and all.. don't forget china is dependent on that jet for now just like US depend on F16.
China inducting this jet on big numbers.. so why can't we go with this jet... J20 is out of question here as its not yet ready if i am not mistaken and Most importantly Its not for export... atleast not before china induct this jet to fill their requirements. than maybe we can request/ask them for J20.

Thanks.

"Pakistan is to China what Israel is to USA but even more" , J-20 if good diplomatics is done then we could get hand on some of them , off course we cant afford to keep a large fleet . Then focus on building our own 5+ or possible 6th gen jet to replace f16s and eventually thunders by 2035-2045....PAF is not in a mood to invest more on existing F-16s due to the last indian lobby in congress that didnt allow subsidy for 8 falcons. if turkey succesfully upgrades its block 40/45 f16s to ozgur standard then its worth to get that upgrade on our block 52s and the later MLU models...F-16V is out of question . we wont get them and even if we , then we will be stuck with many other stupid US interests agreements. Aur haan , mein ne kab kaha ke aap personal hoe . you are good person

 

[ziaulislam]

We even brought thunders on loan. This says how much we are broke. We need to focus on economy. As for PAF the way forward is more potent thunders and used f-16. The issue is it cant even get these two things done due to financial reasons. I doubt USA has objections to used f-16s i think the reason is more cost/finances. Increasing thunder production may involve startingan additional line. Again a finance issue

 

[WarFariX]

We even brought thunders on loan. This says how much we are broke. We need to focus on economy. As for PAF the way forward is more potent thunders and used f-16. The issue is it cant even get these two things done due to financial reasons. I doubt USA has objections to used f-16s i think the reason is more cost/finances. Increasing thunder production may involve startingan additional line. Again a finance issue

KIA time tha wo 1950-1968 tak , we were perfect financially to buy weapons..ab to manhoosiat chaa gai hai

 

[ziaulislam]

KIA time tha wo 1950-1968 tak , we were perfect financially to buy weapons..ab to manhoosiat chaa gai hai

Spend 300 billion rupees /yr on steel mills.DESCOs.and PIA .
What will u expect ?
We r lucky that we got rid of PTCL !

 

[SQ8]

Hi,
Sir i never mentioned anywhere that F16 is inferior, yes its awesome jet but what we have are that really that good to fight? my question and problem is only with old junks as our ACM and is looking for, old F16.
why they don't ask for new F16 Block 52 or 60 (V) class?
we can't cry always for money.. this is what i meant.

Yes we have best pilots in world and they always proved that they are best, but with what? old f16? which is upgraded to level 40/45 thats it?

Sir you are very senior member here and i never meant to argue with you by any mean as you have great knowledge of Mil forces which i don't have. i would say not a 1% .

thanks.


Dear, i never attached or got personal with anyone here, i just said simple thing what you just have written in your above post.. we should by some potent blocks. i don't have any issue with f16 but old f16 crap is simply useless...

and don't forget what we can face after getting more f16 during war.... Uncle sam is not easy to deal with.
they can put sanction any moment during war.. so trust them is BIG NO..
and like you said j10b.. engine and all.. don't forget china is dependent on that jet for now just like US depend on F16.
China inducting this jet on big numbers.. so why can't we go with this jet... J20 is out of question here as its not yet ready if i am not mistaken and Most importantly Its not for export... atleast not before china induct this jet to fill their requirements. than maybe we can request/ask them for J20.

Thanks.

The idea I am trying to make you understand is that how are you judging the F-16 configuration we have as old and crap? Based on what?

The block-60 is specific to the UAE- the F-16V is priced much higher and to the PAF the truly beneficial upgrade is the AESA radar over the capability its existing fleet has.

Our block-15 is as advanced with its upgrades as the USAF block-52 with CCIP which they intend to field till 2023, then they will either have enough F-35 or replace with or upgrade these to F-16V standard avionics.
In fact, the block 52 is more advanced in avionics than current USAF F-16s with CCIP.

So Ill ask again, what research did you do before coming to your conclusions and deciding on these statements?

 

[The Accountant]

Yes we should
But
Can we afford it?
That is the question. Regardless of all tall claims made, actual records including government and non government publications indicate that Pakistan does not have the budgetary capability to achieve this.

The rest is wishful thinking and not reality. Reality is right now there is a PAF tender where the incharge is insisting on a piece of equipment and not accepting alternative and not giving any reason for it-
You tell me, what is the reason for someone telling you they only want A and not telling you why?

Sir by way of logic and realistic view you are absolutely right but let me put some historical facts to you ...

1. By which realistic view you think Pakistan not only created but get stabilised ?
2. by which logic country which had no industrial base in 1950 happen to make nuclear bomb in 1980s
3. By which logic a country which do not even have one proper steel industry keeping special purpose steel and composite happen to make IRBM and MIRV capable missiles ..

Sir sorry to say but from realistic point of view i should have become another bangladesh and should have accepted the supermacy of india as my realistic and logical mind tells me that i can never beat 5 times powerful enemy which will never agree to peaceful mutually respectful equal co.existence ...
5th

Spend 300 billion rupees /yr on steel mills.DESCOs.and PIA .
What will u expect ?
We r lucky that we got rid of PTCL !

Thanks to economic blunders of Zilfikar Ali Bhutto ...

Wakai bhutto abb bhi zinda ha ... or hm sherminda han

 

[WarFariX]

The idea I am trying to make you understand is that how are you judging the F-16 configuration we have as old and crap? Based on what?

The block-60 is specific to the UAE- the F-16V is priced much higher and to the PAF the truly beneficial upgrade is the AESA radar over the capability its existing fleet has.

Our block-15 is as advanced with its upgrades as the USAF block-52 with CCIP which they intend to field till 2023, then they will either have enough F-35 or replace with or upgrade these to F-16V standard avionics.
In fact, the block 52 is more advanced in avionics than current USAF F-16s with CCIP.

So Ill ask again, what research did you do before coming to your conclusions and deciding on these statements?

Off topic , BTW CCIP includes JHMCS , do we have it ?

 

[SQ8]

Off topic , BTW CCIP includes JHMCS , do we have it ?

Yes- both the block-52 and block-15M have it.

Sir by way of logic and realistic view you are absolutely right but let me put some historical facts to you ...

1. By which realistic view you think Pakistan not only created but get stabilised ?
2. by which logic country which had no industrial base in 1950 happen to make nuclear bomb in 1980s
3. By which logic a country which do not even have one proper steel industry keeping special purpose steel and composite happen to make IRBM and MIRV capable missiles ..

Sir sorry to say but from realistic point of view i should have become another bangladesh and should have accepted the supermacy of india as my realistic and logical mind tells me that i can never beat 5 times powerful enemy which will never agree to peaceful mutually respectful equal co.existence ...
5th

Thanks to economic blunders of Zilfikar Ali Bhutto ...

Wakai bhutto abb bhi zinda ha ... or hm sherminda han

1. There are people who work and persevere for Pakistan just as those who look to sell it out cheap- it is a constant struggle

2. Threat of existence- Bhutto needs credit for recognizing the need to counter India's bomb

3. Suggest you research steel making industry in Pakistan before that statement

We cannot beat India in a conventional war, but if we don't have leadership like Yahya or Niazi and others- we sure the hell can give them irreparable damage to their country even without nuclear weapons.

But since we have nuclear weapons, it is a zero sum game. Neither country will survive a nuclear exchange

KIA time tha wo 1950-1968 tak , we were perfect financially to buy weapons..ab to manhoosiat chaa gai hai

That is a myth- during that time- private individuals were wealthy, Pakistan was not.

The right time was the late 1980s during Zia, but he was too busy in corruption to properly use the AID and financial resources to upgrade Pakistan's military

 

[WarFariX]

Yes- both the block-52 and block-15M have it.

One more question , Although we wont go for Topowl neither Striker 2 , can PL-5 or PL-9C and chinese air to ground missiles get integrated with any of the mentioned HMD ?

 

[The Accountant]

Yes- both the block-52 and block-15M have it.


1. There are people who work and persevere for Pakistan just as those who look to sell it out cheap- it is a constant struggle

2. Threat of existence- Bhutto needs credit for recognizing the need to counter India's bomb

3. Suggest you research steel making industry in Pakistan before that statement

We cannot beat India in a conventional war, but if we don't have leadership like Yahya or Niazi and others- we sure the hell can give them irreparable damage to their country even without nuclear weapons.

But since we have nuclear weapons, it is a zero sum game. Neither country will survive a nuclear exchange


That is a myth- during that time- private individuals were wealthy, Pakistan was not.

The right time was the late 1980s during Zia, but he was too busy in corruption to properly use the AID and financial resources to upgrade Pakistan's military

Sir Oscar, I do not agree with you that we cannot beat India ... We cannot as of now but in future we should be able to ...

Look at the size of Israel and its resources and look at the Arab world and resources at their disposal ... even USA could not match the type of wealth Arab world has ... They just had to channelize the resources in right direction but failed to do so ... on the contrary, Israel played its cards well and now is one of the most powerful country ...

I agree that Zia and Niazi are the culprit but we have to rise again ... have to rise again to the level of 1965 ...

We should be able to retaliate without nukes as using nukes means destruction of everything ... and we dont want that ... we want an honorable Pakistan and that can never be achieved with Nukes provided that BJP remains in power as they will die but will not tolerate Pakistan to prosper ...

 

[araz]

I personally think... it would be alot more cost effective to go higher on numbers of jf 17 ... rather than soending money on another gen 4 fighter....

I too have issue with numbers and speed of induction... would be happier if they can get chinese ti make another 50 block 2 / 3 for us in next few years on top of our local production

I agree a d would further emphasise that that maybe the only way for us to go in our dire financial condition. Weapons procurement in my view is a zero sum game in the Indo Pak scenario. Most likely these weapons will pass their shelf lives wothout having seen action
On the other hand the trust deficit within the two countries is such that no one will wait for the other to start a Nuke exchange and as such probably at the first site of a missile or a CM it would be very hard to justify not retaliating with a like response. No one in their right mind will wait to find out whether 5he Missile/CM is nuke tipped or conventional. It seems logical to prepare for the worst while hoping for the best. The level of damage in the fallout will be such that it will remain irrelevant whether the other side had Rafale and we had 16s or JFT. This guessing game is precisely the reazon we have not had a fight between 2 nuke armed countries. However that too will not be the case ever.
Therefore the only way to look at the situation is to have minimal deterrance rather than a full one to one match.
As to the slow pace of JFT induction it has to do with the "F" word. The word all of us know but avoid speaking of---------finance of course.
The other factor to consider is infrastructure setup and pilot training. These in turn relate to the "F" word. There are also other factors like what happens if you employ X amount of men who churn out 6-8 aircrafts a month. You reach your target of 50 fighters in 8-9months but then you have to lay off work force as they dont have any work at hand
This os the problem with planning the speed at which ypu manufacture the product. Big producers always hacve laternate programmes which they can shift workforce to keep them occupied.