JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[ziaulislam]

I think the interesting part to see is how much thunders will PAF induct 150 or 250
whether PAF is going to down size to 250-270 aircraft or whether it is going to maintain 20 front line squadrons and total of 360~

the whole point of thunder was to get the numbers up, more numbers less cost, to make it doesn't make sense to stop at 150, PAF would have better off tried J-10 if they wanted to stick around 150

Right now PAF isnt getting enough funds to even get it numbers to 250.

 

[Tempest II]

Can you plz tell the edition .... as I also have screenshot of relevant section from 2013 edition but mostly contain old info
View attachment 390326 View attachment 390328

I think it is the same one. I must joined the images into one big one.

 

[lovepakaramy]

Yes we should
But
Can we afford it?
That is the question. Regardless of all tall claims made, actual records including government and non government publications indicate that Pakistan does not have the budgetary capability to achieve this.

The rest is wishful thinking and not reality. Reality is right now there is a PAF tender where the incharge is insisting on a piece of equipment and not accepting alternative and not giving any reason for it-
You tell me, what is the reason for someone telling you they only want A and not telling you why?

Hi,
Sir this is what actually i wanted to say that Nuclear is not the only solution... as you just said we do not have funds. or can we afford it... this is what our forces has to ask this sh*t governments. where are all money going?

i am still stick to my point that how we will defense our Airspace with current fleet?
our ACM just has one to tell on media all the time.. WE ARE FULLY CAPABLE TO FACE ANY THREAT AND GIVEN MATHEMATICAL EXAMPLE.... bla bla bla... ask him what are his calculations when IAF will come to our airspace with full power... Rafale, Su, mig and mirage...????
how he will calculate to face this threat? does he has any solution for that..

if we talk about financial problem. sir where are all money which is granting every year? Again i will ask .. is that really true that our forces are more focused on their retirement plans instead focusing for their Country?

I have nothing to say after all this discussing as we all know its not gonna end..

thanks.

So dear sir , what are your views on ACM saheb , As always claimed by Sir Mastan Khan before that all of these chiefs need to secur3 green cards and all. Is this true or you disagree with it?

This is what i am repeating to our seniors on this foram..

Hi,

You are 110% correct---.

Conventional strength makes a monster out of pakistan---.

Nuclear strength---makes it a weakling---.

Look at Israel---no one knows about it nuc program---but look at its conventional strength---more than enough to smash thru all its enemies at one go---.

The question muslim pakistanis need to ask---why is the Yid so consumed by conventional strength---when it has enough resource to demolish all the middle east and more---.

The next question to be asked is---are the Yids following the Golda Meir's actions of following the example of Prophet Mohammad PBUH?

Pakistan and Paf has been resting on its laurels---and the U S has been digging deeper and deeper into where Paks nuc assets lay---.

They believe that out of 13 places / locations---the U S knows about 4 of them---that was 2 years + ago---.

But my information says that the U S knows between 7-9 locations by now.

Once all the sites are known---with its quick deployment force in GCC and those 10000 visas given---it thinks that within 30-60 minutes---once the word go is given---those sites would all be neutralized---.

Maybe a site or two be able to launch the first missiles---and that would be all---and these missile could be intercepted thru anti missile missile batteries---.

The thing is---that in order for your INSURANCE to work right---you ought to have a GUARANTEE---and that Guarantee is air superiority and heavy strike platforms---.

You know a very interesting thing---al the pakistan air force personal and some of theor cohorts on this board have not moved an inch from their beliefs that the Paf may have committed a folly----or there maybe error in assessment somewhere---.

Each one of those members is 100% solid convinced of the Paf's stand---and those members have not moved an inch from the stand they took for the last 10 years that I have talked to them---.

And that is extremely worrisome---. You have to look at it this way---an organization that bought a sanction prone aircraft---an organization that lived in sanction for 10 + years---an organization that has not bought single high performance aircraft in the last 15 1/2 years---how can that prganizations word be trusted---.

The more important issue here is---what kind of people are we dealing with who still live with conviction of what the Paf does---. That issue is the most intriguing---.

Hi Sir,

i respect you and your experience a lot.

actually i am arguing for the same thing that why we running after this Jet about which we are sure at the time of war there's 100% chance of sanctions.?

We have china with best options - so why only this jet? i am keep asking where are the money gone and why still crying for the same since a decade?

Sir any comment about our ACM last interview special on getting more F16? as he clearly mentioned that they are in talk for more F-soolaa.

Thanks

 

[SQ8]

Hi,
Sir this is what actually i wanted to say that Nuclear is not the only solution... as you just said we do not have funds. or can we afford it... this is what our forces has to ask this sh*t governments. where are all money going?

i am still stick to my point that how we will defense our Airspace with current fleet?
our ACM just has one to tell on media all the time.. WE ARE FULLY CAPABLE TO FACE ANY THREAT AND GIVEN MATHEMATICAL EXAMPLE.... bla bla bla... ask him what are his calculations when IAF will come to our airspace with full power... Rafale, Su, mig and mirage...????
how he will calculate to face this threat? does he has any solution for that..

if we talk about financial problem. sir where are all money which is granting every year? Again i will ask .. is that really true that our forces are more focused on their retirement plans instead focusing for their Country?

I have nothing to say after all this discussing as we all know its not gonna end..

thanks.



This is what i am repeating to our seniors on this foram..

I already mentioned we cannot sustain a conventional arms race with India.
As for the calculations are, I don't speak for the ACM- but I do have confidence in the air staff who have decades of air forces experience and years of air warfare studies and analysis education.

Then you are repeating the same question on the money when I have already outlined we are short of despite all conspiracy claims here- tell me something, did you know the exact figure of how much interest you have been charged for the Erieye Awacs or fhe loans for tr JF-16 project?
I can bet you don't but you are phrasing your statements as if you were the one who signed off on the budget.
I can understand your frustration but at this time you are sounding like certain seculars who rant on the Quran being a violent book when they haven't even bothered to read more than one ayat of it.

You asked a very ascerbic question on the forces being focused on retirement, from where and how did you gauge that statement? Do you have a source? An article, a survey?
Ask the folks who die in Siachen, Waziristan or died when a bird struck their aircraft on takeoff or their base was attacked.

There are good and bad apples everywhere but to give blanket statements because some idiotic seniors do it to get attention is not a good way to start.

There are those that engage in corruption within the armed forces and those that fight them. It is impossible to negate the human nature without a change in society, and the people who make up Pakistan military are no different than their counterparts in the streets. Most are honest, some are not.


You are needlessly degrading the F-16 because someone has put in your mind that it is an inferior asset. If you have researched its capabilities and knowing exactly what they are you have concluded that it does not hve any chance, then we can discuss further- but if you are basing it on someone's personal and technically lacking opinions- then I can't change your mind.

 

[WarFariX]

Hi,
Sir this is what actually i wanted to say that Nuclear is not the only solution... as you just said we do not have funds. or can we afford it... this is what our forces has to ask this sh*t governments. where are all money going?

i am still stick to my point that how we will defense our Airspace with current fleet?
our ACM just has one to tell on media all the time.. WE ARE FULLY CAPABLE TO FACE ANY THREAT AND GIVEN MATHEMATICAL EXAMPLE.... bla bla bla... ask him what are his calculations when IAF will come to our airspace with full power... Rafale, Su, mig and mirage...????
how he will calculate to face this threat? does he has any solution for that..

if we talk about financial problem. sir where are all money which is granting every year? Again i will ask .. is that really true that our forces are more focused on their retirement plans instead focusing for their Country?

I have nothing to say after all this discussing as we all know its not gonna end..

thanks.



This is what i am repeating to our seniors on this foram..




Hi Sir,

i respect you and your experience a lot.

actually i am arguing for the same thing that why we running after this Jet about which we are sure at the time of war there's 100% chance of sanctions.?

We have china with best options - so why only this jet? i am keep asking where are the money gone and why still crying for the same since a decade?

Sir any comment about our ACM last interview special on getting more F16? as he clearly mentioned that they are in talk for more F-soolaa.

Thanks

Hi,
I never get personal on pdf , your sentences of IAF coming over with all MKIs , Migs and mirages , u must know that MKIs are blunder for IAF and believe me in war situation , MKIs will be the most vulnerable to be hit in wars. There are many many factors that relate to my opinion. Whenever our jets encounter indian jets in our boundary , what happens there is remained between walls of AHQ .

 

[WarFariX]

Hi,
Sir this is what actually i wanted to say that Nuclear is not the only solution... as you just said we do not have funds. or can we afford it... this is what our forces has to ask this sh*t governments. where are all money going?

i am still stick to my point that how we will defense our Airspace with current fleet?
our ACM just has one to tell on media all the time.. WE ARE FULLY CAPABLE TO FACE ANY THREAT AND GIVEN MATHEMATICAL EXAMPLE.... bla bla bla... ask him what are his calculations when IAF will come to our airspace with full power... Rafale, Su, mig and mirage...????
how he will calculate to face this threat? does he has any solution for that..

if we talk about financial problem. sir where are all money which is granting every year? Again i will ask .. is that really true that our forces are more focused on their retirement plans instead focusing for their Country?

I have nothing to say after all this discussing as we all know its not gonna end..

thanks.



This is what i am repeating to our seniors on this foram..




Hi Sir,

i respect you and your experience a lot.

actually i am arguing for the same thing that why we running after this Jet about which we are sure at the time of war there's 100% chance of sanctions.?

We have china with best options - so why only this jet? i am keep asking where are the money gone and why still crying for the same since a decade?

Sir any comment about our ACM last interview special on getting more F16? as he clearly mentioned that they are in talk for more F-soolaa.

Thanks

if you really want to know how capable F-16s are and why even MM alam on his first flight on falcon fell in love with , then enter NDU . You will be given lessons on its greatness.. our pilots are addicted to F-16s . It is the most agile aircraft in the world. So far all of war history of F-16s , and red flag and other exercises results are proof of greatness of F-16 . It even locked F-35A. Wha5 else do you dream to have ? i still wish we buy more block 52+(block 60 preferred ) and raise total number to at least 112. There is no point on inducting J-10B now coz the engine facility , new trainers , a decade of training for experience (by which this aircraft will start losing its touch in modern warfare) , new platform costs and all expenses. The best option i would suggest is Get 5th Gen for air superiority (J-20 preferred ; Dont cry about no export. You will get it if you will pay plus interests in pak that china has ) and some more block 52 and possible thunder strength to 200

 

[XDescendantX]

Can't we just build the parts for the block II for the block III that we know will remain the same; or upgrade all block I to block II status; or prepare most of the block I & II for block III upgrades.

Maybe even have the JFT engineers teach "helpers" to build basic parts so they can concentrate on the difficult parts to speed up block III production when ready?

 

[messiach]

Yes.

wanted to ask you one more thing can a block 2 be upgraded to block 3 in future or structural changes wont permit it.

 

[mrrehan]

Hi,
I never get personal on pdf , your sentences of IAF coming over with all MKIs , Migs and mirages , u must know that MKIs are blunder for IAF and believe me in war situation , MKIs will be the most vulnerable to be hit in wars. There are many many factors that relate to my opinion. Whenever our jets encounter indian jets in our boundary , what happens there is remained between walls of AHQ . I know just one scenerio from my friend (you would love to talk to him believe me) of An MKI entering some months ago and what happened was awesome.

Out of curiosity if you kindly let us know what was that MKI interception?

 

[krash]

maximum take off weight is a calculated value, do not misguide users here by stating that payload has to be reduced.
An engine with more thrust is better for many reasons but does not means that F-16s with older engines became un-flyable.

It cannot be just a calculated value. Aircraft are designed and built according to certain envisioned performance parameters, so is the JF-17. The increase in weight of an aircraft anywhere will absolutely have an effect on the operational parameters of the said aircraft. Whether the increase in weight would disallow the aircraft from taking off or not depends on the amount of increased weight and the availability of extra thrust (spare amount to keep the aircraft still within acceptable performance parameters). If the aircraft is already fitted with an engine powerful enough to allow weight increase while still keeping the aircraft within the required performance ranges then you do not need to decrease weight elsewhere in the aircraft when adding heavier load-outs. However, if the amount of weight increase goes beyond the capacity of the available thrust to keep the aircraft within the required performance parameters then you would need to shed weight elsewhere (wherever may that be) to keep the aircraft from falling below the required parameters, provided everything else is left as constant (the F-16's weight increase has come with a parallel increase in thrust). This is the reason why that with heavier load-outs aircraft at times only take on enough fuel to take off and then refuel again, according to the mission requirements, when in the air. Aren't the older F-16s said to be more agile exactly because they are lighter?

Or at least how I have understood it, in my very limited study on the matter.

 

[The Eagle]

Hi,

Please note that where a person has been employing car salesman like underhanded tactics and has collected a following around his toxic and accusatory stories, it is important to call out his profession because it becomes important.

I want to take this opportunity to register my utter amazement that retired and serving officers of upstanding character are labeled traitors and not once has a moderator intervened, yet the sentiments of a single user hiding behind an internet handle requires moderator notices?

This guy is responsible for sowing dejection and using despair to forward a certain agenda.. Mediocracy is a mentality, and if left to fester, becomes an ethos. What worries me is some youngster on boarding the message and then getting commission in PAF and rising in ranks with the wrong perceptions. If you guys csn do more to counter this toxic propaganda, I seriously have no wish to call out anyone's profession. Thank you.

If subject becomes the profession of the person, who knows in virtual world, then it is clear that how the one can be diverted from the real topic in hand. Discussing a thing which is not the subject or of importance, is like you gave it priority rather to the contents and worthy topic. Don't know where the single user came into subject yet message was not quoted to anyone nor you were part of the message at all. Who knows how he has been informed/noticed to avoid such post, as you say.

We can only counter the propaganda with facts and knowledge but mere discussion of someone's profession is not going to serve the purpose we expect. I do agree that mere claims to be countered and is necessary but that all can be done when I put forth much credible information, facts, worthy info and you will see the counter affect. Hope you understand that. Why to give a chance to others to say as one wrong wouldn't make you right. That post was for everyone including MastanKhan that no one is suppose to get personal with others and the same was not pointed at you but don't know how you get it alone. As soon as you become personal (quoting you for an example) that means, one lost the arguments so keep this thing aside and I would love to read the qualitative counter arguments. You see what happen here, one throws a divergent you picked it, gone off-road and see, lost the track though would like to avoid such fame that many lost interest to read such category posts by someone else, therefore, don't be like someone else.

 

[araz]

If subject becomes the profession of the person, who knows in virtual world, then it is clear that how the one can be diverted from the real topic in hand. Discussing a thing which is not the subject or of importance, is like you gave it priority rather to the contents and worthy topic. Don't know where the single user came into subject yet message was not quoted to anyone nor you were part of the message at all. Who knows how he has been informed/noticed to avoid such post, as you say.

We can only counter the propaganda with facts and knowledge but mere discussion of someone's profession is not going to serve the purpose we expect. I do agree that mere claims to be countered and is necessary but that all can be done when I put forth much credible information, facts, worthy info and you will see the counter affect. Hope you understand that. Why to give a chance to others to say as one wrong wouldn't make you right. That post was for everyone including MastanKhan that no one is suppose to get personal with others and the same was not pointed at you but don't know how you get it alone. As soon as you become personal (quoting you for an example) that means, one lost the arguments so keep this thing aside and I would love to read the qualitative counter arguments. You see what happen here, one throws a divergent you picked it, gone off-road and see, lost the track though would like to avoid such fame that many lost interest to read such category posts by someone else, therefore, don't be like someone else.

Agreed but by the same token accusing people of treason without substabtial proof is also slander and should be punishable. If you accuse people people will ask for yohr credentials for making such accusations. And if your credentials dont match the expertise you are claiming to have and basing accusatory judgements then the poster needs to be taken to task.
The attacks against such a poster although still not allowable but by the same token the said plster should also be chastened for accusing others. There has been far too much leniency that has been given to various posters jnspite of repeated calls from TT and other senior professionals to take them to task. I think this tendency should be curtailed.
I think rules should be applied equally and to all irrespective of their status.

 

[The Eagle]

Agreed but by the same token accusing people of treason without substabtial proof is also slander and should be punishable. If you accuse people people will ask for yohr credentials for making such accusations. And if your credentials dont match the expertise you are claiming to have and basing accusatory judgements then the poster needs to be taken to task.
The attacks against such a poster although still not allowable but by the same token the said plster should also be chastened for accusing others. There has been far too much leniency that has been given to various posters jnspite of repeated calls from TT and other senior professionals to take them to task. I think this tendency should be curtailed.
I think rules should be applied equally and to all irrespective of their status.

Sir,

That is the reason as members have been requested to report such posts and move-on without quoting back
or doing so in return that gives a free pass to the instigator. We both agree that personal attacks/taunts or slanders, are not allowed and trust me, I don't see applying rules in partiality at all. For the same reason, a
soft reminder was posted so that whosoever is doing so, must avoid such attitude.

Furthermore, a soft reminder is must so that none should ever complain for direct action without any chance so also, as a courtesy for members. Title Holders are part of the Analysis/respective team and as per practice, I don't think that such reported matters are left without any attention. No disagreement w.r.t. applying rules for all hence, I quoted our above friend to adopt a proper and more effective practice for better results.

Best regards,

 

[Mrc]

I personally think... it would be alot more cost effective to go higher on numbers of jf 17 ... rather than soending money on another gen 4 fighter....

I too have issue with numbers and speed of induction... would be happier if they can get chinese ti make another 50 block 2 / 3 for us in next few years on top of our local production

 

[ghazi768]

It cannot be just a calculated value. Aircraft are designed and built according to certain envisioned performance parameters, so is the JF-17. The increase in weight of an aircraft anywhere will absolutely have an effect on the operational parameters of the said aircraft. Whether the increase in weight would disallow the aircraft from taking off or not depends on the amount of increased weight and the availability of extra thrust (spare amount to keep the aircraft still within acceptable performance parameters). If the aircraft is already fitted with an engine powerful enough to allow weight increase while still keeping the aircraft within the required performance ranges then you do not need to decrease weight elsewhere in the aircraft when adding heavier load-outs. However, if the amount of weight increase goes beyond the capacity of the available thrust to keep the aircraft within the required performance parameters then you would need to shed weight elsewhere (wherever may that be) to keep the aircraft from falling below the required parameters, provided everything else is left as constant (the F-16's weight increase has come with a parallel increase in thrust). This is the reason why that with heavier load-outs aircraft at times only take on enough fuel to take off and then refuel again, according to the mission requirements, when in the air. Aren't the older F-16s said to be more agile exactly because they are lighter?

Or at least how I have understood it, in my very limited study on the matter.

F-16 can fly with 42,000 lbs plus, and it has been demonstrated to fly with more. The reason for its being limited to this weight is its landing gear limit worked out by manufacturer. JF-17 mtow is roughly 28,000 lbs with roughly the same wing as F-16. If you know.. that should give you a good idea that lift is not any issue and neither the runway length should be..

If M2K with about 0.7 thrust to weight ratio is still a favourite for some users here and regarded as a top VWR fighter, Su-30 with 85,000 lb plus of mtow and a t/w of about 0.9 is still a super manoeuvrable fighter (usually a weight where if anyone says its a fighter than others who have experience will laugh themselves out) than adding a few thousand pounds to JF-17 even with the same thrust should not be an issue..

On land, take-off weight is not an issue unless you are not flying from a prepared airstrip.. usually the thing looked into more closely is landing weight especially with heavier ground ordinance. Take off weight is an issue when flying from air-craft carriers especially STOBARs resulting in most of the time flying with smaller amount of fuel.

The thing is it is ok to theorise what will be the effects of increase of weight etc. but you should not present it as a fact. This will end up misleading and misguiding normal users who do not know these things.