JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[salman-1]

As far as the number game 150 of Jf17 will have 144 single seat making 8 squadron of 18 each as per standard sqdrn size and 6 will be double seat making 150 total. As per new specs arriving for 3Axis fly by wire, these twin seaters will serve all blocks 1,2 n 3 as later 3 out of 6 will have Aesa radars same as block 3.

 

[Arsalan]

As far as the number game 150 of Jf17 will have 144 single seat making 8 squadron of 18 each as per standard sqdrn size and 6 will be double seat making 150 total. As per new specs arriving for 3Axis fly by wire, these twin seaters will serve all blocks 1,2 n 3 as later 3 out of 6 will have Aesa radars same as block 3.

I am not sure if we will be developing a whole new variant just to make 6 planes. Even if you do consider export options. It looks like at later stages more twin seat variants will be build to add to the 150 planes planned in three blocks. Anyway, we will have to wait and see. However if we are going through this whole process to make 6 planes i can just do not see the logic behind it at all (again, EVEN if we consider export possibilities)

 

[ghazi768]

Don't forget F-16 also saw an (more powerful) engine change.

Maximum take off weight is the limit on the total weight of the package regardless of what is contributing factor be it air frame, fuel, equipment or armament.

maximum take off weight is a calculated value, do not misguide users here by stating that payload has to be reduced.
An engine with more thrust is better for many reasons but does not means that F-16s with older engines became un-flyable.

 

[salman-1]

PAF will make more twin seat with block 3 production but I know as I read some where that 144 would be single seat for sure to make up full sqd strength of 8 sqdrns

 

[WarFariX]

It is definitely RD93MA because now we have overhaul facilities of RD engines

no RD-93MA bro..only MK

Thank you for a very comprehensive post. I fully agree that prior to the 5th generation venture we will possubly try out the te hnologies we want to incorporate into our 5th generation venture. With advancing technologies it may be that prior to building the 5th generation plane in house if the demand is there we will prosuce a 4++ generation figther incorporating some of the emerging technologies. This can subsequently evolve into a true 5th/6th generation fighter. In prder to do so PAF will have to collaborate with possibly China/Turkey on a project for 5th generation fighter to gain access to the relevant technologies.
The real point to follow is how the Bl.3 fulfills the need of PAF. Icant see PAF stopping the JFT programme at 150 planes so there will be a block 4./ possibly 5. Now whetjer thos is entirely for export or for home ise as well will depend entirely on how well the NG fighter programme progresses in PAC and indeed in China. I think we need to watch and wait as there does not at the moment

Think tank brother How can you see PAF pursuing Block 4 or 5 and possibly another 50 order after 50 block 3 .I dont see it happening . please explain in detail . Do include the requirements of PAF in this

 

[Chak Bamu]

I recall that around 2-3 years ago, when the government asked PAC to push for export of JF-17, there was a lot of hue and cry. Now seeing that there is definitely going to be a production gap between block-II and block-III, it is understandable how and why the decision to push for export was arrived at.

 

[araz]

no RD-93MA bro..only MK


Think tank brother How can you see PAF pursuing Block 4 or 5 and possibly another 50 order after 50 block 3 .I dont see it happening . please explain in detail . Do include the requirements of PAF in this

I dont think there will be a follow up order of 50 post block 3. There will be a progressive increase in capabilities of the thunder to Block 4 depending on what capabilities become available. By this time the PGs and the ROSE M3/5s will be going and Therefore there will be a need to find replacement for them which in my view could well be that. That would give us 250 JFTs and 86 16s. I dont envisage PAF being able to secure more 16s at least in the near future and what seems likely is the current strength of 16s. If things change these plans may yet change however it is a hypothesis.
As a matter of Principle, I would prefer a home grown solution anytime over a foreign second hand platform.However I fully recognize the need for interim arrangements for capability and parity maintenance.
I dont see a fifth generation platform arriving in PAF till 2023-25.
This is my analysis and could well be totally wrong.
Regards
A

 

[Arsalan]

I dont think there will be a follow up order of 50 post block 3. There will be a progressive increase in capabilities of the thunder to Block 4 depending on what capabilities become available. By this time hte PGs and the ROSE M3/5s will be going and Therefore there will be a need to find replacement for them which in my view could well be that. That would give us 2150 JFTs and 86 16s. I dont envisage PAF being able to secure more 16s at least in the near future and what seems likely is the current strength of 16s. If things change these plans may yet change however it is a hypothesis.
As a matter of Principle, I would prefer a home grown solution anytime over a foreign second hand platform.
I dont see a fifth generation platform arriving in PAF till 2023-25.
This is my analysis and could well be totally wrong.
Regards
A

Fully agreed with sir. Just to mention it again, we have to keep in mind the possible number of 5th gen. planes that we may go for. That is not going to be near enough to fill in the numerical gap. A home grown solution using the excellent base we have in shape of JF17 and the lessons we learn from operating and procurement of fifth generation MUST be translated into a platform that gives us 4.5 gen plane and balance out those numbers as well.

 

[araz]

Fully agreed with sir. Just to mention it again, we have to keep in mind the possible number of 5th gen. planes that we may go for. That is not going to be near enough to fill in the numerical gap. A home grown solution using the excellent base we have in shape of JF17 and the lessons we learn from operating and procurement of fifth generation MUST be translated into a platform that gives us 4.5 gen plane and balance out those numbers as well.

I dont see more than 40 5th generation platforms as their cost and maintenance will be prohibitive unless we go down the home grown route. One of the problems with predicting things is you dont even know what is going to happen tomorrow rather than 5-10 yrs down the line.Most of us are arm chair Generals and all that we say is guess work at the best. The people in the know often do not say much( and we are fully understanding of their predicament as well).Even for them the prediction of future events can become difficult due to various variables that can affect your analysis.
A

I recall that around 2-3 years ago, when the government asked PAC to push for export of JF-17, there was a lot of hue and cry. Now seeing that there is definitely going to be a production gap between block-II and block-III, it is understandable how and why the decision to push for export was arrived at.

I think the situation for export will clarify post the unveiling of the twin seater. It was technically a folly on the part of PAF to not have gone for one ealrier and I think it has impacted the exports so far. The block 2 that we have now is what I feel was envisaged as the complete Block 1 although our need for platforms was so dire we got things moving and initiated pilot training and induction/infrastructure build up while developing block 2 and 3.
Once the orders start flowing in we can initiate a new assembly line either in PAC or in China for production of extra units as well as ramp up production to 24 units per year.
A

PAF will make more twin seat with block 3 production but I know as I read some where that 144 would be single seat for sure to make up full sqd strength of 8 sqdrns

What is the need in each squadron for a twin seater? Are you seeing a SEAD DEAD platform in each squadron or do you see a twin seater as a lead fighter for training and evaluation. If the former then we wont need more than 40 for the 18- 20 squadrons plus 4-6 for CCS. The real value in my view will be for sales and demonstration.
A

 

[My-Analogous]

no RD-93MA bro..only MK


Think tank brother How can you see PAF pursuing Block 4 or 5 and possibly another 50 order after 50 block 3 .I dont see it happening . please explain in detail . Do include the requirements of PAF in this

I think 93MA (9.3 tons) is more powerful compare to RD33MK (9 tons) and RD33MK is also in use of India and don't think it is easily digest other side of border. If we use RD33MK then we have to redesign aircraft because of gearbox location.

 

[lovepakaramy]

The current PAF force structure includes F-16s, JF-17s, Mirages and F-7s.
Each of these aircraft has a specific role.
Please go through this as it answers most of your questions
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-17-thunder-made-for-the-paf.398270/

My objection is not to challenging statements and ideas, but rather that these come from information and research; not just because you heard from one person's opinion.

If you find something incoherent in that write up- ask, criticise & correct- but do it eith the background knowledge on hand and logic.

--

Hi,
Sir are you still count Mirage and F7 in our force structure?
i wana repeat my question to you and my senior Member, if possible please clear my doubt here.

we have 18 x F-16C/D (Block 52+). rest our 45 x F-16AM/BM MLU.
Do you think these MLU'd jets will able to fight with highly upgraded Su's, MiG and mirage?

Sir this is what i was trying to say that - yes we have good force but not to that par where we can fight wish our enemy.
with just Jf17 and few f-soola we can't win the war... rest mirage and f7 are just junks, we just can put our pilots life in danger with these junks.

on the other hand, lets say if rafale land in india in 2018 - do we have counter plan? or Men behind the machine funda will work there?

my last but not least point. i am not sleeping nor our Nation. actually our high commands and our government are sleeping and making us fool. simply.

 

[SQ8]

--

Hi,
Sir are you still count Mirage and F7 in our force structure?
i wana repeat my question to you and my senior Member, if possible please clear my doubt here.

we have 18 x F-16C/D (Block 52+). rest our 45 x F-16AM/BM MLU.
Do you think these MLU'd jets will able to fight with highly upgraded Su's, MiG and mirage?

Sir this is what i was trying to say that - yes we have good force but not to that par where we can fight wish our enemy.
with just Jf17 and few f-soola we can't win the war... rest mirage and f7 are just junks, we just can put our pilots life in danger with these junks.

on the other hand, lets say if rafale land in india in 2018 - do we have counter plan? or Men behind the machine funda will work there?

my last but not least point. i am not sleeping nor our Nation. actually our high commands and our government are sleeping and making us fool. simply.

Both the MLU and block-52 are able to and are serious air threats to ANY IAF fighter. Are you aware of what exact equipment fit they have?
Suggest you look into it.

As for numbers of aircraft, they are sufficient for any engagement beyond a full scale war.

Now
PAKISTAN Will lose a full scale war

PAKISTAN will lose a full scale war

Hopefully stating it twice should make it clear.
But in any scenario where we are losing, the nuclear weapons will come out.

Before the usual absurdity of "traitor PAF" and other unintelligent statements come out from certain quarters, please ask yourself on the budget of Pakistan Air force(if you know the EXACT figures versus IAF) , the economy of Pakistan (Versus India) and how much tax do you or your family pay, who do you vote and elect and so on.

All of these factor into what force structure you end up with at the end of the day. The rest is opinions which are 90% uninformed.

What the PAF has today and will have is the best it could get with the handicaps both external and internal.

 

[messiach]

When you say improved engine performance at the low, what does that mean?Are you still referring to RD-93 and not the improved version RD-93MA?

improved engine performance @ lower end speed. Lower compressed air temperature @ inlet, more is the oxygen available for combustion providing increased efficiency with reduced outlet temperatures. This is substantial decline in outlet temperatures. Still RD93.

 

[Hell hound]

improved engine performance @ lower end speed. Lower compressed air temperature @ inlet, more is the oxygen available for combustion providing increased efficiency with reduced outlet temperatures. This is substantial decline in outlet temperatures. Still RD93.

wanted to ask you one more thing can a block 2 be upgraded to block 3 in future or structural changes wont permit it.

 

[saracen]

Thunder will continue developing, and possibly morph into next generation aircraft in fullness of time, so no upper limit numbers on lifetime Thunder acquisition can safely be predicted at the moment, but a minimum of 250 Thunders in Pak service is a safe bet.
Work on the post block 3 has already started in earnest. Whereas we'll acquire 5th gen through one channel or the other, there is need for indigenous next gen aircraft with our own AESA, and efforts are underway to this end, as these are the targets that our air chief was recently alluding to.