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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

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Even right now. JF-17 can be modified to have 9 external hard points. The question is about payload which is not very sufficient with the current powerplant.

Can we configure perhaps a squadron of JF-17s as, what a layman like myself could call, a BVR Bomb Truck where those you know 3 or 4 missile carrying racks per hardpoints are attached & the Jf-17 stays well in our air space & uses the enormous amounts of BVR at her disposal to pick-off any intruder that ventures into Pakistan while it is protected by 2-3 nimble Jf-17s primed for dog-fighting in case the enemy ventures too close !

Or even use the same configuration to fire off 'stand-off' weapons at Indian FOBs from within out territory ?

A special Jf-17 with structurally reinforcement & the sort to carry more...much more whilst sacrificing on agility amongst other things because the role assigned to it isn't close-on engagement but as a stand-off platform to fire off salvos of stand-off weapons from a safe distance behind a screen of more nimble Interceptors or Dog-fighters ?

Or am I trash talking again ? :cray:
 
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Can we configure perhaps a squadron of JF-17s as, what a layman like myself could call, a BVR Bomb Truck where those you know 3 or 4 missile carrying racks per hardpoints are attached & the Jf-17 stays well in our air space & uses the enormous amounts of BVR at her disposal to pick-off any intruder that ventures into Pakistan while it is protected by 2-3 nimble Jf-17s primed for dog-fighting in case the enemy ventures too close !

Or even use the same configuration to fire off 'stand-off' weapons at Indian FOBs from within out territory ?

A special Jf-17 with structurally reinforcement & the sort to carry more...much more whilst sacrificing on agility amongst other things because the role assigned to it isn't close-on engagement but as a stand-off platform to fire off salvos of stand-off weapons from a safe distance behind a screen of more nimble Interceptors or Dog-fighters ?

Or am I trash talking again ? :cray:


Trash Talk !

such objectives are set for artillery formations and too in locations where infantry is ready to take charge of that land
 
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Bhai muuunh paaar hiii kai diyaaa....bandaa dil hii rukhhh leitaaa haiii ! :cray:

Dual carriage is possible (NOT 3-4 BVR-AAMs though per hardpoint) based on hardpoint load capacities and NO that's not how the JFT will operate. In a combo with the AEW&C platform it'll be a good platform for defending the airspace while on a CAP.
 
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Bhai muuunh paaar hiii kai diyaaa....bandaa dil hii rukhhh leitaaa haiii ! :cray:

What is the use ?

an air force is far too expensive a force to raise and keep than Artillery.

Consider your self an air craft flying at 20,000 Ft.
The world is too big and you are too small !

Lastly, so many planes loaded like that, will attract radar from mars !
 
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@Armstrong The JFs have done some dual carries for bombs-

twinrackbombsjf172ll.jpg
 
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Some points need to be considered here

* For how long in foreseeable future STEALTH will be a game changer? Before 2020 you will see comprehensive antidote for stealth. Even now Stealth is only to get really close enough to the target but it is not 100% invincible.
* At any stage how many Stealth aircraft will PAF need in their inventory?
* What is PAF doctrine regarding heavy multirole fighters vs-.a-vis medium/light ones?
* What is your opinion regarding sizable investment (human/financial) PAF has made in JF-17? Do you think PAF will just wind up the assembly line after 250 thunders induction and start from scratch building J-31?

Will try and respond point vise.
Stealth will remain pertinent in the sub continental arena and you wont see much in the way of stealth till 2020 and fully integrated before 2025.I suspect we will certainly see stealth fighters till 2040 if not longer.
PAF will want at least 2_3 squadrons of stealth planes.I doubt whether we will have much more.
PAF has avoided heavier planes as we dont have an offensive doctrine. HOWEVER nothing is ever permanent and things can change.PAF has had tbe F5 do it is not impossible for it to have J31
Am unaware of the exact doctine regarding twin engined planes but suppose cost and defensive strategy may be the reasons.
Iam making the precise point that one should not try to fix that which is not broken. JFT in its current state fully satisfies the criteria set by PAF for it. It toom the US 30 + yrs to build the F22 and the F 35. We neither have the time nor the money so make incremental changes which keep the platform stable and the costs down and wait for better times. We will eventually have to move on from JFT but lets do it in an economically sound manner rather than insanely.
Araz
 
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For those questioning why there is no dual carriage for BVR, look at the scenario that will be faced by the JFT, then decide.
In that, include time to enemy contact from base or CAP and time taken to close into WVR.
 
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I agree with need to induct a stealth platform and that it should be manufactured in-house.

However, I would stress the need to reduce JF-17's RCS as much as possible while keeping the expense within certain limits. Every little bit helps, and it does not matter what RCS is contributed by missiles attached to JF-17. Lowering RCS is important for its own sake and the argument about aircraft attachments contributing to RCS is not decisive in my opinion. How much does a single SD-10 contribute? What difference would be made by two BVR and two WVR missiles? Anything beyond that should be eliminated as much as possible. If JF-17's small size counts as a strength, then we might as well make it matter by lowering RCS as much as possible without going broke.
RCS control on an existing platform, especially when the platform never had any RCS control measures to start, is highly problematic, in terms of technical hurdles to overcome and if accomplished, tactical usage of the modified platform.

airliner_rcs_02.jpg


The above example is how any radar PERCEIVE any target, from a human being to a building to an aircraft. Each voltage spike came from a structure, of which itself is most likely made up of many smaller structures. A jet engine is a clear example of this. All of these contribute to a total RCS value. So in essence, each structure, from the cockpit seat to the pilot himself to the wings to the UHF antenna and so on, is a contributor to final RCS value. This understanding is extremely important in the concept of RCS and its control methodologies and tactics of those methods on a complex body.

The three items are distinct:

- The radar cross section (RCS)
- RCS control methods
- Tactics on how to deploy and use the many methods

Tactics is where it is problematic on an existing platform. A change to lower the contribution -- contributorship -- of a structure may aerodynamically damage the platform beyond flight capability, at least on paper anyway.

But let us be generous and assume that most of the contributorships (voltage spikes) have been lowered to below the graph and effectively into the 'stealthy' region, and yet there are still a few that could not be lowered, such as the single vertical stabilator that together with the horizontal stabilators formed the dreaded corner reflector from the side perspective.

body_corner_reflector_ex.jpg


In RCS control tactics, the corner reflector is a huge no-no. From major reflector like the stabilators to smaller reflectors created by the four fins on bombs and missiles. In terms of reflectivity or radiation output, the corner is about 90% as that of the flat plate facing the radar. But what make the corner worse than the plate is that it has an effective electromagnetic aperture of 60 deg from any direction, in other words, with the plate, as you move from perpendicular, radiation RECEIVED BY YOU drops dramatically while with the corner reflector, you would have to move beyond 60 deg view in order to experience the same dramatic decline.

So let us say that you reduced the JF-17's many contributors into the 'stealthy' region except for a few major ones without compromising aerodynamic stability. Now you start attaching weapons to your modified fighter.

A clean F-16, meaning no externals except for two Sideweiners...I mean...Sidewinders serves as the official unofficial standards for borderline 'stealth'. Except for the side perspective where its single vertical stab forms that dreaded corner reflector.

How much does those two missiles contribute?

What the missile do is make the aircraft LESS AMBIGUOUS from background radiation to the seeking radar. Very important that you understand ambiguity because that is the foundation of data processing to extract a target out of background.

When our clean F-16 hovers around or descends below 1000 ft altitude, its ambiguity factor goes high and the aircraft effectively went 'stealthy' despite the fact that it was still in our radar view. Ambiguity is about certainty, or the lack thereof. Basically, the radar computer says: 'I see something but not sure what it is.' Ambiguity is about (un)certainty WHILE THE TARGET IS INSIDE RADAR VIEW.

If we add on other externals like bombs, larger missiles, and sensor pods, our F-16's ambiguity factor will be lowered to match the doo-dads that we added on. So at the same altitude, the wings may be 'invisible' to the seeking radar, but the externals will stand out like how those voltage spikes are in the graph. They do not need to be huge like that major spike from the airliner's tail section contributorship. They just need to be enough to rise above the built-in ambiguity threshold for the radar computer to say: 'Gotcha...!!!'

So if you want to make any use of this modded JF-17 without compromising its new lowered RCS value, at least from the frontal aspect anyway, you will have to devise new air doctrines and tactics to use a platform that for the sake of 'stealth' is now severely limited in warfighting capability.

That is not new, actually. Look at the US F-117 and see how limited are its deployment.

Remember, we are being very generous here in assuming that many of the JF-17's existing contributors can be 'worked on', so to speak. We are also generous in assuming that Pakistan have measurement facilities, indoor and out, to perform the crucial steps of:

- Prediction
- Modeling
- Measurement

You cannot avoid this process. Even we did not when we created the new F-18.
 
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@gambit thank you very much for your detailed response. I believe you posted something like this a few months back when the issue of JF-17 RCS was discussed.

I appreciate the technical points elucidated by you. It is so easy to think of RCS as only a number and not something that is more complicated as you have shown. This is the down side of trying to learn 'facts' from online forums. I can gather a few points from your post.

1. RCS reduction measures are best done at design stage. But still I think that RCS reduction measures should be employed as upgrades. Differences in JF-17 prototype 1 & 4 being a good example. I am specifically pointing to DSI, which is not only effective in weight reduction, but also improves RCS by removing splitter plates, and thus removing four corners and also blocking possible irradiation of engine blades. So perhaps some other such steps can be taken relating to antennae, sensors, & materials, and other avenues. The point of it all being improvement of RCS as upgradation continues for the next few years.

2. JF-17's High wing loading and the aircraft's use in a CAS role within own airspace would probably help in shielding it from enemy radar. Since Pakistan's doctrine is mainly defensive, it is an important consideration.

3. PAF's standard load out of JF-17 with 4 missiles (2 BVR and 2 WVR) makes sense when taking missile's contribution to RCS into account. I disagree with those who think that JF-17 ought to carry more BVR missiles using multi-missile racks / rails. With quick service-ability and short turn-around time, JF-17 can make more sorties and I would much rather have more aircraft in air than have fewer with same total number of Missiles.

Please correct me if I have made a glaring mistake or two, since I am no expert and I want to learn more.
 
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Can we configure perhaps a squadron of JF-17s as, what a layman like myself could call, a BVR Bomb Truck where those you know 3 or 4 missile carrying racks per hardpoints are attached & the Jf-17 stays well in our air space & uses the enormous amounts of BVR at her disposal to pick-off any intruder that ventures into Pakistan while it is protected by 2-3 nimble Jf-17s primed for dog-fighting in case the enemy ventures too close !

Or even use the same configuration to fire off 'stand-off' weapons at Indian FOBs from within out territory ?

A special Jf-17 with structurally reinforcement & the sort to carry more...much more whilst sacrificing on agility amongst other things because the role assigned to it isn't close-on engagement but as a stand-off platform to fire off salvos of stand-off weapons from a safe distance behind a screen of more nimble Interceptors or Dog-fighters ?

Or am I trash talking again ? :cray:

Lol not exactly trash talk but you need to consider some factors.

There are several roles which JF-17 will undertake whishlist carrying BVR's namely CAP, ADA.

In CAP (Combat Air Patrol), 2 short range and 2 BVR's suffice along with fuel tanks. Since CAPs are performed round the clock and putting on extra weight of BVR's will only burn more fuel.
Where as the jets on ADA (Air Defense Alert) can be equipped with more than 2 BVR's since they get airborne when patrolling jets engage enemy formations. Hence more than 2 BVR's will be required.

As for multiple ejector racks, the wing loading strength and MTOW of JF-17 should be considered first. The multiple AMRAAM ejector racks work fine with the Super Hornet due to its enormous wing strength.

As for stand off engagements, we have ICBMs for that. ;)
 
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...that RCS reduction measures should be employed as upgrades.
You can do so, provided that at least your Prediction and Modeling hinted that the RCS control methods will lower the aircraft a percentage that is worth the financial investment.

- Prediction
- Modeling
- Measurement

With today's computers, we can swap the order of Prediction and Modeling, but Measurement will always have the final word, especially measurement of a full scale model.

Before Pakistan can start on the modification, the country must have all the necessary resources readied. The human resource is composed of scientists and engineers at least properly educated, if not experienced, in the science of radar detection. They can learn on-the-fly if necessary, and all they learned will be added to the national institution memory for future generations, but they must be Pakistanis and not from somewhere else. The physical resource involves the hardware such as manufacturing factories, indoor and out measurement facilities, tooling, plans and planning, and even organizational layout. And all of this must be supported by a financial resource that should be as free from corruption and the political weather vane as much as possible. Not completely free because that is just simply impossible, even for US, but just clean enough that program managers and organization leaders can spend more time on the technical hurdles than on politicking for money. Both are inevitable. The question is which one is Pakistan willing to live with.

But even if Pakistan have gathered the necessary will to embark on this ambition, and it is a large technical ambition, that does not mean the JF-17 can be turned into a 'quasi-stealthy' fighter of any tactical value. At best -- Yes. At worst -- Pakistan have just engaged in a very expensive science project. Working on the DSI alone is like enclosing missiles and bombs into a pod but left the external fuel tanks as they are. Enclosed ordnance may statistically disappeared from the radar scope, but the external fuel tanks will give the fighter away just as well.

The bottom line is that EVERYTHING on the aircraft must be subjected to the three steps dictated by RCS control philosophy. You predict and model, then you physically verify. Little by little. You break the aircraft down into discrete sections and components, virtually and perhaps even physically, and assign teams to engage their charges into those three steps. That is how Boeing did it with the F-15 into the SE version and Pakistan must have the technical expertise of the likes of Boeing, as how it produced the F-15SE, in order to produce a JF-17S, so to speak.

The reality is that the F-15SE will be effective against 3rd and 2nd order radars, but not against ours. The American systems have undergone an unnoticed fundamental shift in data processing in terms of programming sophistication supported by equally progressive and modular hardware design to facilitate rapid changes precisely from what you are proposing to do on existing platforms. We are at least one step ahead in this game.
 
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We are at least one step ahead in this game.

Gambit,

Thank you for your post. You are being extremely considerate---. The U S could easily be ahead by 2 decades.

As for pakistan---I think that if they invest in a BVR missile that has a high kill ratio at the extreme end of its range---that would be a less expensive but extremely potent way to face the problem.

Build a smarter missile---it will be a force multiplier.
 
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