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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

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Chak yaar, We should not make huge point out of it. Look, a LIGHT fighter jet cannot have long range/endurance. 45 minutes clean is perfect. Let us look at Pakistani combat area... 6-20 minutes towards the border... If F7P can do it then JF17 is a lot better. People look at "we need mach 2"... By the time you get mach 1 you are probably above Amritsar... That goes for most of the planes. So do you need 1500 combat radius? Maybe above Indian Ocean (that is a hint for getting you know what I said...) but for the rest we have made the best plane we can get. Do remember Lavi... Was that a big plane? Why is J10 bigger? Cause China needs range. Israel does not need the range cause it is small. It needs air superiority. We need that. Surely Israeli need long range strikers to destroy arab nuclear sites etc but that is the same why we need something for the Indian Ocean.

So, I get furious (in a good way) when seniors write stuff that make no sense. If you have JF17 you probably have the cheapest almost the same quality as bock40-50 level (which is to me a medium weight fighterjet). So characteristics can be altered by adding IFR or netcentric warfare. I do not need people telling me that JF17 is not enough. These people are the ones that do no see potential but are good in see the negatives. Tufail got not promoted. Probably this is his payback.
 
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JF-17 Developments Indicate Aircraft Is Still On Track

ISLAMABAD — Contrary to speculation, development of the JF-17 aircraft continues apace with avionics and weapons carriage capability improvements, work ongoing on future variants, and impending establishment of the third squadron.

Chief Project Director of the JF-17 program, Air Vice Marshal Javed Ahmed, told Defense News the program was “as per schedule and there are no delays,” saying the current fleet had logged 10,000 hours and flown over 13,500 sorties.

He also revealed the third squadron would be raised after Exercise High Mark 2014 toward the end of the year.

Chief among these improvements are avionics, with Ahmed highlighting they are aimed at improving “situational awareness” and the “performance and lethality of the aircraft,” but still centered on the NRIET KLJ-7 radar which supports the SD-10 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile.

However, building on local capability, “integrating some additional smart and indigenously developed weapons” is underway, though Ahmed did not specify.

Short-range air-to-air armament, however, still consists of the PL-5E II, a recent variant of an aged weapon.

Nevertheless, analyst and former Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail says the Air Force is happy with Chinese missiles.

“Price per unit seems to be a likely factor, besides hooking them to the fire control computer for firing zone solutions, which would also cost a fortune,” he said.

Potential payload shortcomings have also been highlighted by analysts. The JF-17 is often seen with three large drop-tanks indicating low internal fuel capacity and/or high consumption by the Klimov RD-93 engine.

However, Ahmed says the three-tank configuration is for ferry flights or “extended operational training exercises/missions” with routine flights made “in clean or single-tank configuration.”

Therefore, for smaller nations and those conducting tactical missions, “it has the requisite reach to engage targets and can also provide required on-station time in an air defense role,” and aerial refueling “further augmented reach and endurance.”

Tufail is unconvinced, though, and highlights that 10,000 hours/13,500 sorties, equates to 45 minutes per sortie.

“Notwithstanding the aerial refueling capability [which has many operational and logistics limitations], the short sortie time may be a no-no for prospective buyers,” he said.

His most likely solution is not so straightforward, however.

“[Conformal fuel tanks] are absolutely essential to a multi-role JF-17, but these are not easy to install, since the aerodynamics of the aircraft is greatly altered and it would call for flight testing in all regimes, including certification of all stores anew.”

Ahmed says other solutions are being considered “based on customer requirements.”

“The dual rack ejector for bombs has already been integrated, flight tested and being flown in PAF. A similar concept of multimissile launcher is under evaluation for missiles,” he said.

Though largely operated by state-owned and Air Force-run Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Ahmed also highlighted progress on increasing private sector involvement.

“Several Pakistani vendors have been cultivated and brought up to the proficiency levels mandated by aviation programs. The nascent aviation industry in the private sector is taking root and is gradually enhancing its share in this program of national importance,” he said.

Though numerous analysts have commented on the lack of export sales despite well-publicized promotion and apparent interest from potential customers, Ahmed defends this apparent lack of success.

“Defense purchases, especially those of combat aircraft, are expensive undertakings and are therefore preceded by lengthy evaluations and detailed deliberations by the professional decision makers. The response that the aircraft is receiving is highly encouraging and the export orders may not be far off,” he said.

He also stressed that the JF-17 was still a highly attractive option in an age of austerity as it “offers a highly cost effective solution with cutting edge capabilities,” and that “no other contemporary combat aircraft offers the same capabilities in comparable price range.”

Ahmed also highlighted customized “avionics and weapon packages according to the specific requirements of each customer” as well as training, maintenance and logistics packages, which includes “indigenously developed customized solutions, testers and simulators.”

Ahmed did not, however, shed any light on reports the JF-17 could be offered in a wider package including the Chinese ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft.

Looking forward, Ahmed confirmed aspects of the Block III avionics package, which would include the evaluation of an active electronically scanned array radar option along with other upgrades, and this process was also mindful of potential export customer requirements.

“At present, the Chinese and indigenous systems are performing well in JF-17 aircraft. However, there are different Western proposals and considerations for avionics systems of Block-III JF-17 aircraft which could also be an option for our customer countries,” he said.

Analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank is unsure this will occur, but believes a “domestically produced engine may in the end tilt the balance towards a Chinese purchase.”

“They certainly have lots of units to replace,” he says.

Nevertheless, Shabbir said everything laid out by Ahmed “shows a well thought out road map for future variants and the capability they would provide.” ■

Email: uansari@defensenews.com.

JF-17 Developments Indicate Aircraft Is Still On Track | Defense News | defensenews.com
 
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@Munir I agree with you on most things. But not on Kaiser Tufail - there is insufficient reason to make an allegation like that. I have already observed that his calculation is simplistic, if not actually flawed.

The day block III rolls out. A lot of people will be answered very effectively. But today, the situation is as it stands and no need to argue much. We have been watching, reading, debating, defending, anticipating for so many years. It is only 2 / 3 more years. I can wait.

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@ejaz007 , sir how many times are you going to share this article?
 
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@Munir I agree with you on most things. But not on Kaiser Tufail - there is insufficient reason to make an allegation like that. I have already observed that his calculation is simplistic, if not actually flawed.

The day block III rolls out. A lot of people will be answered very effectively. But today, the situation is as it stands and no need to argue much. We have been watching, reading, debating, defending, anticipating for so many years. It is only 2 / 3 more years. I can wait.

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@ejaz007 , sir how many times are you going to share this article?
Sir, Are there any pics of the block 2 yet? I kinda scanned through the thread and couldn't seem to find any? are they even any pics available yet?
 
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Sir, Are there any pics of the block 2 yet? I kinda scanned through the thread and couldn't seem to find any? are they even any pics available yet?

Wait a month and a half at least. If you can not wait, then just take a look at upgraded Block I. The IFR probe would be a little different perhaps, but generally no big surprises are expected. Apart from IFR, there are no visible external changes expected.

But still to be sure, just wait like the rest of us.
 
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@Munir I agree with you on most things. But not on Kaiser Tufail - there is insufficient reason to make an allegation like that. I have already observed that his calculation is simplistic, if not actually flawed.

The day block III rolls out. A lot of people will be answered very effectively. But today, the situation is as it stands and no need to argue much. We have been watching, reading, debating, defending, anticipating for so many years. It is only 2 / 3 more years. I can wait.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

@ejaz007 , sir how many times are you going to share this article?

"But if we start a mission with 4400-kg of fuel, start-up, taxy and take off takes 400-kg, we need to allow 1000-kg for diversion to an alternate airfield 50-nm away, and 500-kg for the engagement, including one minute in afterburner. That leaves 2500-kg. If we need 15 minutes on station at 420 kts that requires another 1000-kg, leaving 1500-kg for transit. At FL200 (20,000 ft) that gives us a radius of 150-nm, and at FL100 (10,000 ft) we have a radius of only 100-nm.

German remarks on their Mig-29.

Mig 29A max take off weight 20,000 kg
Jf-17 max take off weight 12000+ kg

Jf-17's fuel capacity is just over 2300 kg, thus 45 mins sortie time make sense.
 
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waiting bro

Wait a month and a half at least. If you can not wait, then just take a look at upgraded Block I. The IFR probe would be a little different perhaps, but generally no big surprises are expected. Apart from IFR, there are no visible external changes expected.

But still to be sure, just wait like the rest of us.
b
 
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Wait a month and a half at least. If you can not wait, then just take a look at upgraded Block I. The IFR probe would be a little different perhaps, but generally no big surprises are expected. Apart from IFR, there are no visible external changes expected.

But still to be sure, just wait like the rest of us.
Thanks
 
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JF-17 Developments Indicate Aircraft Is Still On Track

ISLAMABAD — Contrary to speculation, development of the JF-17 aircraft continues apace with avionics and weapons carriage capability improvements, work ongoing on future variants, and impending establishment of the third squadron.

Chief Project Director of the JF-17 program, Air Vice Marshal Javed Ahmed, told Defense News the program was “as per schedule and there are no delays,” saying the current fleet had logged 10,000 hours and flown over 13,500 sorties.

He also revealed the third squadron would be raised after Exercise High Mark 2014 toward the end of the year.

Chief among these improvements are avionics, with Ahmed highlighting they are aimed at improving “situational awareness” and the “performance and lethality of the aircraft,” but still centered on the NRIET KLJ-7 radar which supports the SD-10 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile.

However, building on local capability, “integrating some additional smart and indigenously developed weapons” is underway, though Ahmed did not specify.

Short-range air-to-air armament, however, still consists of the PL-5E II, a recent variant of an aged weapon.

Nevertheless, analyst and former Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail says the Air Force is happy with Chinese missiles.

“Price per unit seems to be a likely factor, besides hooking them to the fire control computer for firing zone solutions, which would also cost a fortune,” he said.

Potential payload shortcomings have also been highlighted by analysts. The JF-17 is often seen with three large drop-tanks indicating low internal fuel capacity and/or high consumption by the Klimov RD-93 engine.

However, Ahmed says the three-tank configuration is for ferry flights or “extended operational training exercises/missions” with routine flights made “in clean or single-tank configuration.”

Therefore, for smaller nations and those conducting tactical missions, “it has the requisite reach to engage targets and can also provide required on-station time in an air defense role,” and aerial refueling “further augmented reach and endurance.”

Tufail is unconvinced, though, and highlights that 10,000 hours/13,500 sorties, equates to 45 minutes per sortie.

“Notwithstanding the aerial refueling capability [which has many operational and logistics limitations], the short sortie time may be a no-no for prospective buyers,” he said.

His most likely solution is not so straightforward, however.

“[Conformal fuel tanks] are absolutely essential to a multi-role JF-17, but these are not easy to install, since the aerodynamics of the aircraft is greatly altered and it would call for flight testing in all regimes, including certification of all stores anew.”

Ahmed says other solutions are being considered “based on customer requirements.”

“The dual rack ejector for bombs has already been integrated, flight tested and being flown in PAF. A similar concept of multimissile launcher is under evaluation for missiles,” he said.

Though largely operated by state-owned and Air Force-run Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Ahmed also highlighted progress on increasing private sector involvement.

“Several Pakistani vendors have been cultivated and brought up to the proficiency levels mandated by aviation programs. The nascent aviation industry in the private sector is taking root and is gradually enhancing its share in this program of national importance,” he said.

Though numerous analysts have commented on the lack of export sales despite well-publicized promotion and apparent interest from potential customers, Ahmed defends this apparent lack of success.

“Defense purchases, especially those of combat aircraft, are expensive undertakings and are therefore preceded by lengthy evaluations and detailed deliberations by the professional decision makers. The response that the aircraft is receiving is highly encouraging and the export orders may not be far off,” he said.

He also stressed that the JF-17 was still a highly attractive option in an age of austerity as it “offers a highly cost effective solution with cutting edge capabilities,” and that “no other contemporary combat aircraft offers the same capabilities in comparable price range.”

Ahmed also highlighted customized “avionics and weapon packages according to the specific requirements of each customer” as well as training, maintenance and logistics packages, which includes “indigenously developed customized solutions, testers and simulators.”

Ahmed did not, however, shed any light on reports the JF-17 could be offered in a wider package including the Chinese ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft.

Looking forward, Ahmed confirmed aspects of the Block III avionics package, which would include the evaluation of an active electronically scanned array radar option along with other upgrades, and this process was also mindful of potential export customer requirements.

“At present, the Chinese and indigenous systems are performing well in JF-17 aircraft. However, there are different Western proposals and considerations for avionics systems of Block-III JF-17 aircraft which could also be an option for our customer countries,” he said.

Analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank is unsure this will occur, but believes a “domestically produced engine may in the end tilt the balance towards a Chinese purchase.”

“They certainly have lots of units to replace,” he says.

Nevertheless, Shabbir said everything laid out by Ahmed “shows a well thought out road map for future variants and the capability they would provide.” ■

Email: uansari@defensenews.com.

JF-17 Developments Indicate Aircraft Is Still On Track | Defense News | defensenews.com
plz check already posted
 
.
JF-17 Developments Indicate Aircraft Is Still On Track

ISLAMABAD — Contrary to speculation, development of the JF-17 aircraft continues apace with avionics and weapons carriage capability improvements, work ongoing on future variants, and impending establishment of the third squadron.

Chief Project Director of the JF-17 program, Air Vice Marshal Javed Ahmed, told Defense News the program was “as per schedule and there are no delays,” saying the current fleet had logged 10,000 hours and flown over 13,500 sorties.

He also revealed the third squadron would be raised after Exercise High Mark 2014 toward the end of the year.

Chief among these improvements are avionics, with Ahmed highlighting they are aimed at improving “situational awareness” and the “performance and lethality of the aircraft,” but still centered on the NRIET KLJ-7 radar which supports the SD-10 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile.

However, building on local capability, “integrating some additional smart and indigenously developed weapons” is underway, though Ahmed did not specify.

Short-range air-to-air armament, however, still consists of the PL-5E II, a recent variant of an aged weapon.

Nevertheless, analyst and former Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail says the Air Force is happy with Chinese missiles.

“Price per unit seems to be a likely factor, besides hooking them to the fire control computer for firing zone solutions, which would also cost a fortune,” he said.

Potential payload shortcomings have also been highlighted by analysts. The JF-17 is often seen with three large drop-tanks indicating low internal fuel capacity and/or high consumption by the Klimov RD-93 engine.

However, Ahmed says the three-tank configuration is for ferry flights or “extended operational training exercises/missions” with routine flights made “in clean or single-tank configuration.”

Therefore, for smaller nations and those conducting tactical missions, “it has the requisite reach to engage targets and can also provide required on-station time in an air defense role,” and aerial refueling “further augmented reach and endurance.”

Tufail is unconvinced, though, and highlights that 10,000 hours/13,500 sorties, equates to 45 minutes per sortie.

“Notwithstanding the aerial refueling capability [which has many operational and logistics limitations], the short sortie time may be a no-no for prospective buyers,” he said.

His most likely solution is not so straightforward, however.

“[Conformal fuel tanks] are absolutely essential to a multi-role JF-17, but these are not easy to install, since the aerodynamics of the aircraft is greatly altered and it would call for flight testing in all regimes, including certification of all stores anew.”

Ahmed says other solutions are being considered “based on customer requirements.”

“The dual rack ejector for bombs has already been integrated, flight tested and being flown in PAF. A similar concept of multimissile launcher is under evaluation for missiles,” he said.

Though largely operated by state-owned and Air Force-run Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Ahmed also highlighted progress on increasing private sector involvement.

“Several Pakistani vendors have been cultivated and brought up to the proficiency levels mandated by aviation programs. The nascent aviation industry in the private sector is taking root and is gradually enhancing its share in this program of national importance,” he said.

Though numerous analysts have commented on the lack of export sales despite well-publicized promotion and apparent interest from potential customers, Ahmed defends this apparent lack of success.

“Defense purchases, especially those of combat aircraft, are expensive undertakings and are therefore preceded by lengthy evaluations and detailed deliberations by the professional decision makers. The response that the aircraft is receiving is highly encouraging and the export orders may not be far off,” he said.

He also stressed that the JF-17 was still a highly attractive option in an age of austerity as it “offers a highly cost effective solution with cutting edge capabilities,” and that “no other contemporary combat aircraft offers the same capabilities in comparable price range.”

Ahmed also highlighted customized “avionics and weapon packages according to the specific requirements of each customer” as well as training, maintenance and logistics packages, which includes “indigenously developed customized solutions, testers and simulators.”

Ahmed did not, however, shed any light on reports the JF-17 could be offered in a wider package including the Chinese ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft.

Looking forward, Ahmed confirmed aspects of the Block III avionics package, which would include the evaluation of an active electronically scanned array radar option along with other upgrades, and this process was also mindful of potential export customer requirements.

“At present, the Chinese and indigenous systems are performing well in JF-17 aircraft. However, there are different Western proposals and considerations for avionics systems of Block-III JF-17 aircraft which could also be an option for our customer countries,” he said.

Analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank is unsure this will occur, but believes a “domestically produced engine may in the end tilt the balance towards a Chinese purchase.”

“They certainly have lots of units to replace,” he says.

Nevertheless, Shabbir said everything laid out by Ahmed “shows a well thought out road map for future variants and the capability they would provide.” ■

Email: uansari@defensenews.com.

JF-17 Developments Indicate Aircraft Is Still On Track | Defense News | defensenews.com
plz check already posted
 
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"But if we start a mission with 4400-kg of fuel, start-up, taxy and take off takes 400-kg, we need to allow 1000-kg for diversion to an alternate airfield 50-nm away, and 500-kg for the engagement, including one minute in afterburner. That leaves 2500-kg. If we need 15 minutes on station at 420 kts that requires another 1000-kg, leaving 1500-kg for transit. At FL200 (20,000 ft) that gives us a radius of 150-nm, and at FL100 (10,000 ft) we have a radius of only 100-nm.

German remarks on their Mig-29.

Mig 29A max take off weight 20,000 kg
Jf-17 max take off weight 12000+ kg

Jf-17's fuel capacity is just over 2300 kg, thus 45 mins sortie time make sense.

1. Legacy Mig 29 had two rather fuel-hungry old RD-33 engines. JF-17's RD-93 is upgraded and probably has better fuel consumption.

2. Mig 29 is draggy, heavy and is notorious for having short legs.

3. Any mission of JF-17 would at least entail 800L centerline drop tank. The fuel capacity would be in excess of 3000 Kg easily. 2300 Kg is clean configuration, in which the aircraft may have an A2G role within 300 Km or so for maximum ordnance delivery. This means fairly good on-station time given everything.

4. The figure of 45 minutes flight time is a rough calculation and in no way presents the likely scenario.

5. There are rumors that JF-17 fuel capacity had been enhanced. The figures from wikipedia are not necessarily right or correct.

6. When PAF says that they are happy with the aircraft, and AVM Javed Ahmed says that the aircraft possesses a required (read it as decent) on-station time, then that is what it is, IMV.
 
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Keen obsevations.

Block III avionics package, which would include the evaluation of an active electronically scanned array radar .

“there are different Western proposals and considerations for avionics systems of Block-III JF-17

You know what else comes to my mind? Russia......with Russians trying to make a strategic bond with the Pakistanis from a defense sales standpoint, I won't be surprised if they provide additional equipment outside of just the engine. I think I can see their BVR's coming into play as an additional option from a weapons diversity standpoint.
 
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1. Legacy Mig 29 had two rather fuel-hungry old RD-33 engines. JF-17's RD-93 is upgraded and probably has better fuel consumption.

The specific fuel consumption of any engine, including the RD-33 and all variants of the RD-93 are well known in units of lbs of thrust per lb of fuel per hour, and not significantly different for this family of engines.

5. There are rumors that JF-17 fuel capacity had been enhanced. The figures from wikipedia are not necessarily right or correct.

The initial planes had 4,000 lbs of internal fuel and the newer ones are closer to 5,000 lbs.
 
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You know what else comes to my mind? Russia......with Russians trying to make a strategic bond with the Pakistanis from a defense sales standpoint, I won't be surprised if they provide additional equipment outside of just the engine. I think I can see their BVR's coming into play as an additional option from a weapons diversity standpoint.

SD-10A is very close in performance to the AIM-120C series. We did try to buy R-77s from Ukraine but the PAF's tests on SD-10 came with much better results. As for Russian radar, i would not want one (personally). Russians are known for bullying and its better for us to stick with KLJ series as it comes with transfer of technology.
 
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SD-10A is very close in performance to the AIM-120C series. We did try to buy R-77s from Ukraine but the PAF's tests on SD-10 came with much better results. As for Russian radar, i would not want one (personally). Russians are known for bullying and its better for us to stick with KLJ series as it comes with transfer of technology.

I agree with both of your points. However, when you form strategic relationships...good products and services are offered...who knows some with TOT even? This doesn't have to be at the cost of Chinese. This could be an additional option or customer specific solution as JFT is highly customizable. Some countries that buy stuff from Russia may be very interested in buying the JFT if it comes with Russian radars and BVRs for them as a "customized solution" (and there are a lot of countries that operate Russian radars and missiles)
 
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