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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

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Wasn't the replacement supposed to be the Chinese WS-13?

WS-13 is under flight tests since 2009, expected date 2016 subject to performance. RD-93MA with 10kn thrust upgrade is readily available and can be integrated without major structural modifications, Russia is willing to sell so why not?

With 10kn upgrade JF-17's TWR will be around 1:06 (with current weight assuming that composite materials won't be used in further blocks nor a full FBEWCS be introduced.) which would mean similar flight performance to that of Gripen or F-16.
 
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WS-13 is under flight tests since 2009, expected date 2016 subject to performance. RD-93MA with 10kn thrust upgrade is readily available and can be integrated without major structural modifications, Russia is willing to sell so why not?

With 10kn upgrade JF-17's TWR will be around 1:06 (with current weight assuming that composite materials won't be used in further blocks nor a full FBEWCS be introduced.) which would mean similar flight performance to that of Gripen or F-16.

I agree that the RD-93MA would be a better choice performance-wise. However, I mentioned the WS-13 only because it is Chinese and therefore a transfer of technology to Pakistan is more likely. That would be the more important advance for Pakistan.
 
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I agree that the RD-93MA would be a better choice performance-wise. However, I mentioned the WS-13 only because it is Chinese and therefore a transfer of technology to Pakistan is more likely. That would be the more important advance for Pakistan.

PAF won't compromise on performance, we both know that. WS-13 will only see service with PAF if it satisfies all performance parameters. You have a point in regards to TOT. WS-13 would bring a huge boost to our aviation industry but only when its ready.
 
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PAF won't compromise on performance, we both know that. WS-13 will only see service with PAF if it satisfies all performance parameters. You have a point in regards to TOT. WS-13 would bring a huge boost to our aviation industry but only when its ready.

"Any aircraft is a set of compromises flying in close proximity." - Kelly Johnson.
 
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"Any aircraft is a set of compromises flying in close proximity." - Kelly Johnson.

True but you cannot compromise on engines. If we had a good budget, my ideal JFT would have an increased thrust EJ-200, composite materials airframe, VIXEN-1000 AESA radar, retractable IFR, IRST and conformal fuel tanks. Current JFT costs less than a high end BAE HAWK !

Its all about resources and money.
 
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WS-13 is under flight tests since 2009, expected date 2016 subject to performance. RD-93MA with 10kn thrust upgrade is readily available and can be integrated without major structural modifications, Russia is willing to sell so why not?

With 10kn upgrade JF-17's TWR will be around 1:06 (with current weight assuming that composite materials won't be used in further blocks nor a full FBEWCS be introduced.) which would mean similar flight performance to that of Gripen or F-16.

Hi,

Paf should go for the RD 93 ma----that would like a mini coupe----. It is just like going searching for gold & finding a diamond en-route on the way. The prudent thing would be to pickup the diamond & utilize it.

In a strategy for war---there should be nothing set in stone---same must hold true for weapons for war.

If this engine RD 93 ma has the required output of the WS 13---then my prefered engine of choice would be RD 93 ma----becuase it comes out of a proven & well tested lineage---even if it is more expensive.
 
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@MastanKhan, the success of a good car lies in its engine... Same goes for fighterjets. The reason that it is said specific items means that there is no other nation nor a standard export sofar. And when buzzing through my info it is pretty obvious that RD93MA is now ready and linked with block 3. Besides that we will get maintenance facility cause 150-200 planes (PAF) and contract with other nations to do their maintenance (no definite confirmation but kind of lease construction is possible) is a logical requirement. You can all look for when RD93MA development was announced (to a certain nation haha) and we can be certain that now even a better RD33 is inside a Mig29 the RD93MA is ready to be delivered in bigger numbers (the selling of mig29 is lower then expected and one has to sell something).

It is not the only item that is destined for PAF. To lift a curtain a little bit. We will get optical system from Russia. So we will have 360 degrees fully automated optical tracking a la JSF (but less in certain aspects). And Russian weapons will be part of JSF block 3. Just like an aesa radar if a customer wants... So specific items are indeed specific.
 
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It may aswell look like this. @Windjammer

View attachment 35842
Anticipation is all, we should remember how the JFT project was kick started even without an avionics package in place our man decided to go ahead knowing well that once the ball sets rolling all the neccesary requirements can be added and adopted during the production process and hey presto we have a competent platform in our hands. PAF will not push along for further development of this aircraft without knowing that all the gadgets will be available.
 
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Anticipation is all, we should remember how the JFT project was kick started even without an avionics package in place our man decided to go ahead knowing well that once the ball sets rolling all the neccesary requirements can be added and adopted during the production process and hey presto we have a competent platform in our hands. PAF will not push along for further development of this aircraft without knowing that all the gadgets will be available.

Hi,

When you build an aircraft with modular design----then it means that you have already made options to add the desired packages as needed becuase of the flexibility kept in the design.

@Munir

The position of pakistan has changed again from insignificant to significant & then very very important within the last few months.

We will see if it is the sign of changing times or what that russia & pakistan have better relationship.
 
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Anticipation is all, we should remember how the JFT project was kick started even without an avionics package in place our man decided to go ahead knowing well that once the ball sets rolling all the neccesary requirements can be added and adopted during the production process and hey presto we have a competent platform in our hands. PAF will not push along for further development of this aircraft without knowing that all the gadgets will be available.

That exactly my friend resulted in a "crash" for Mushaf Ali Mir. Trust me. There is a party not very happy that PAF pushed through to get JSF. Same happened with Zia and a very famous PAF F16 pilot Murad Khan. The latter was done by our "beloved" Zardari cause Murad did not agree with corrupted Mirage 2000 deal! I let you guess who was responsible for the first two "crashes".

Hi,

When you build an aircraft with modular design----then it means that you have already made options to add the desired packages as needed becuase of the flexibility kept in the design.

@Munir

The position of pakistan has changed again from insignificant to significant & then very very important within the last few months.

We will see if it is the sign of changing times or what that russia & pakistan have better relationship.

It is not suddenly but orchestrated in the last 5 years. These things never come suddenly but slowly low level meetings start. Plans are made. etc etc. There were some signs a lot earlier (the moment Afghanistan was bombed back to stone age the Russians changes mind. Then it was a matter of changing slowly without Indians going ballistic. And the Indians slowly moved towards USA and Israel and blamed Russia for Mig29, Makhi, Mig21, Brahmos, Ghorskov etc etc. So we do not see direct change but it is there for some years. I was waiting to get some deals like RD93 MA and S300. Read my lips. shhht. To prove my point. Do get google search and find those pictures that Pakistani army officers are checking Russian attack choppers. Why would they? Exactly.

I did not had the time top post for some time but there was somewhere a question about costs F16 versus JF17. It is less then 1/3. So the answer provided by a fellow poster is pretty accurate!

Another note. Why would PAF integrate Russian weapons? Well, many nations PAF is trying to sell will also have certain number of Russian weapons in stock. So they can just move on with the flying and not waste time in getting another type of weapon to get used with. And they can move on when they want cause JF17 has programmable bus.
 
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That exactly my friend resulted in a "crash" for Mushaf Ali Mir. Trust me. There is a party not very happy that PAF pushed through to get JSF. Same happened with Zia and a very famous PAF F16 pilot Murad Khan. The latter was done by our "beloved" Zardari cause Murad did not agree with corrupted Mirage 2000 deal! I let you guess who was responsible for the first two "crashes".
@Munir, One can understand and to an extent agree on the C-130 and F-27 crashes but the F-16 incident is bewildering at best, i mean who would have Zardari used to execute that accident.... surely not the Americans. !!
 
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JF-17 Developments Indicate Aircraft Is Still On Track

ISLAMABAD
— Contrary to speculation, development of the JF-17 aircraft continues apace with avionics and weapons carriage capability improvements, work ongoing on future variants, and impending establishment of the third squadron.

Chief Project Director of the JF-17 program, Air Vice Marshal Javed Ahmed, told Defense News the program was “as per schedule and there are no delays,” saying the current fleet had logged 10,000 hours and flown over 13,500 sorties.

He also revealed the third squadron would be raised after Exercise High Mark 2014 toward the end of the year.

Chief among these improvements are avionics, with Ahmed highlighting they are aimed at improving “situational awareness” and the “performance and lethality of the aircraft,” but still centered on the NRIET KLJ-7 radar which supports the SD-10 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile.

However, building on local capability, “integrating some additional smart and indigenously developed weapons” is underway, though Ahmed did not specify.

Short-range air-to-air armament, however, still consists of the PL-5E II, a recent variant of an aged weapon.

Nevertheless, analyst and former Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail says the Air Force is happy with Chinese missiles.

“Price per unit seems to be a likely factor, besides hooking them to the fire control computer for firing zone solutions, which would also cost a fortune,” he said.

Potential payload shortcomings have also been highlighted by analysts. The JF-17 is often seen with three large drop-tanks indicating low internal fuel capacity and/or high consumption by the Klimov RD-93 engine.

However, Ahmed says the three-tank configuration is for ferry flights or “extended operational training exercises/missions” with routine flights made “in clean or single-tank configuration.”

Therefore, for smaller nations and those conducting tactical missions, “it has the requisite reach to engage targets and can also provide required on-station time in an air defense role,” and aerial refueling “further augmented reach and endurance.”

Tufail is unconvinced, though, and highlights that 10,000 hours/13,500 sorties, equates to 45 minutes per sortie.

“Notwithstanding the aerial refueling capability [which has many operational and logistics limitations], the short sortie time may be a no-no for prospective buyers,” he said.

His most likely solution is not so straightforward, however.

“[Conformal fuel tanks] are absolutely essential to a multi-role JF-17, but these are not easy to install, since the aerodynamics of the aircraft is greatly altered and it would call for flight testing in all regimes, including certification of all stores anew.”

Ahmed says other solutions are being considered “based on customer requirements.”

“The dual rack ejector for bombs has already been integrated, flight tested and being flown in PAF. A similar concept of multimissile launcher is under evaluation for missiles,” he said.

Though largely operated by state-owned and Air Force-run Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Ahmed also highlighted progress on increasing private sector involvement.

“Several Pakistani vendors have been cultivated and brought up to the proficiency levels mandated by aviation programs. The nascent aviation industry in the private sector is taking root and is gradually enhancing its share in this program of national importance,” he said.

Though numerous analysts have commented on the lack of export sales despite well-publicized promotion and apparent interest from potential customers, Ahmed defends this apparent lack of success.

“Defense purchases, especially those of combat aircraft, are expensive undertakings and are therefore preceded by lengthy evaluations and detailed deliberations by the professional decision makers. The response that the aircraft is receiving is highly encouraging and the export orders may not be far off,” he said.

He also stressed that the JF-17 was still a highly attractive option in an age of austerity as it “offers a highly cost effective solution with cutting edge capabilities,” and that “no other contemporary combat aircraft offers the same capabilities in comparable price range.”

Ahmed also highlighted customized “avionics and weapon packages according to the specific requirements of each customer” as well as training, maintenance and logistics packages, which includes “indigenously developed customized solutions, testers and simulators.”

Ahmed did not, however, shed any light on reports the JF-17 could be offered in a wider package including the Chinese ZDK-03 AEW&C aircraft.

Looking forward, Ahmed confirmed aspects of the Block III avionics package, which would include the evaluation of an active electronically scanned array radar option along with other upgrades, and this process was also mindful of potential export customer requirements.

“At present, the Chinese and indigenous systems are performing well in JF-17 aircraft. However, there are different Western proposals and considerations for avionics systems of Block-III JF-17 aircraft which could also be an option for our customer countries,” he said.

Analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank is unsure this will occur, but believes a “domestically produced engine may in the end tilt the balance towards a Chinese purchase.”

“They certainly have lots of units to replace,” he says.

Nevertheless, Shabbir said everything laid out by Ahmed “shows a well thought out road map for future variants and the capability they would provide.”
JF-17 Developments Indicate Aircraft Is Still On Track | Defense News | defensenews.com
 
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1. About Sir Kaiser Tufail's observation of 10,000 hrs and 13,500 sorties to calculate 45 min flight time for JF-17: There must be some spread in the distribution of flight times. Without knowing other statistical parameters, it is pretty difficult to base a guess upon simply the average. I can guess that some of those flights could be no more than half an hour. Conversely some flights might be more than an hour. It is fairly hard to tell exactly how long the plane could sustain itself in clean configuration and in one external fuel tank configuration. Another unknown would be the number of sorties with three external fuel tanks and the resulting skewing of the average, but AVM Javed Ahmad has said that most of the sorties have taken place in clean configuration or with just one external tank. I would like to think that AVM is correct in saying that it has enough fuel for tactical missions and required on-station time.

2. About AESA, we have always had a pretty strong guess that Block III would have AESA. It is good to get a confirmation about the plan.

3. Can someone say which locally produced weapons are being integrated on JF-17?

4. Conformal fuel tanks would impact the agility and maneuverability as well as increase drag. Perhaps it would be pertinent to have some planes adopt this and not have all of them go through an upgrade.

5. I have found nothing about a possible increase of hard points. Perhaps PAF does not wish to disclose any such plans. It is good to know that dual ejector racks for missiles are under evaluation. My guess is that having extra hard points is more important than conformal fuel tanks, since, in conjunction with a higher thrust engine, we can have both range and payload.

6. Third squadron is again delayed til the later towards the end of the year. It would likely have aircraft with Block II specifications (both new builds and upgraded Block Is).
 
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It is fairly hard to tell exactly how long the plane could sustain itself in clean configuration and in one external fuel tank configuration.

The internal fuel capacity is 5,000 lbs and external fuel tanks are 800 liters (1400 lbs) in the center and 800 or 1100 liters (2000 lbs) on the inner wing pylons. The range for any mission can be easily calculated given the load for any configuration of internal and external fuel load. Sometimes planes take off with very little fuel to get the ordnance airborne and then fill up in the air for maximum advantage.
 
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