JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

[MastanKhan]

I believe Sir @MastanKhan Will start admiring JF-17 when in a possible next skirmish with Indian air force,He would have shot down a couples of mig 29 and MKI

Hi,

JF17 is going to be an awesome aircraft and it is going to take on everything in iaf's arsenal except for the su30.

SU 30 is a massive aircraft---it has a massive radar---it can carry a massive number of BVR missile and it can carry a massive jammer.

What I have been saying is---and many cannot understand----"When you send your near and dear---the sons of the soil---your warriors to fight your battles---in all fairness---you have to equip them with weapons capable to inflict equal harm on the enemy and come back in one piece.

 

[Chak Bamu]

With that sort of thinking, we shouldn't import any sort of weapon system.

The fact is that the US won't give up it's military secrets to anyone, even to India. The US realizes that it can't partner with India or control it like it can the Pakistani gov. It also realizes that long after the Afghan war is over, Pakistan will still remain it's only real Asian ally in all of Central and South Asia. We may make fun of the US, but one thing they're not is stupid. They're planning long term goals, and those goals include a friendly Pakistan.

It is plausible, but we can not bank on it. Had US considered Pakistan as part of its long-term plans, we would not have seen sanctions and their effects on PAF to the extent that we have seen.

Thing is that US thinks it has figured out how to make Pakistan do its bidding through $$ and used weapons. What Pakistan is doing is exactly the right thing to get out of the hole in which we have fallen. We can not depend on USA. That is the lesson of '90s and we must never ever forget it.

Apart from diversification of our weapon's supplies, we must shun belligerence and improve ties with India to an extent that we may be able to suppress RAW & KHAD activities in Pakistan and focus on improving our economy. That would change the nature of our relation with USA too. Normality would be good for us, our region, and USA too.

JF-17 is a key program in this strategy and this is its value for us. It allows us a measure of independence and a lot of confidence in pursuing our goals.

 

[Sinnerman108]

In addition to what @MastanKhan is saying,
One may find out exactly what proportion of Tungsten, Aluminum, Barium etc are required to make the wing ribs.
Fine and dandy .....
but that still does not imply the same alloy can be replicated, since the manufacturing process is even more complex.

It is not all about melting and mixing everything up..

 

[MastanKhan]

In addition to what @MastanKhan is saying,
One may find out exactly what proportion of Tungsten, Aluminum, Barium etc are required to make the wing ribs.
Fine and dandy .....
but that still does not imply the same alloy can be replicated, since the manufacturing process is even more complex.

It is not all about melting and mixing everything up..

Hi,

That is where industrial grade sabotage comes in as well---you let the opponent steal your infromation which you have deliberately manipulated---everything shows that it is the real mcoy----but after 200 hours of testing---the compressors blades develop a fracture----Ws 10----or ws 13---1000's of engineer hours have gone into it---100's of millions of dollars investment at stake now---you cannot drop the program---you keep building on it--- a tremendous loss of time---.

In the end you take care of the problem---but it cost you an arm and a leg---now you are going to think twice to steal technology and be more appreciative.

 

[Chak Bamu]

"Do you think that Aluminum, rubber, and silicone act differently when used for making AIM-120 than when used in SD-10? Do materials & materials science have nationality issues? Do you consider SD-10 series missiles to be of comparable quality to the children's toys? Do you think that quoting figures like 105 degrees (F), 50,000 ft, etc... impresses an engineer like Oscar, or Munir, or even me to accept your flawed analysis?"


Chak bamu,

Funny man you are---. Off course---material sciences have nationality issues---didn't you know that----.

Atoms, molecules carry little flags, and crystals sing national anthems.

Why do you think there are problems with the compressor blades on that ws engine---the chinese can't figure out the right proportion of alloys---.

Nothing time, money, and effort would not fix. I do not think Chinese are going to give up anytime soon.

Ever heard of damascus steel----they still talk about its nationality---and can't duplicate it.

Heard of it, but I doubt anyone would agree to your usage for Material nationality issues problem. What should they have called it back in the middle ages? Muslim steel (for religiously inclined) or Semitic steel (for those who would rather connect material science with race), or do the obvious thing by branding it with the place name connected with its trade?

I doubt if anyone would want to waste resources duplicating Damascus steel when far more practical problem of high temperature tolerance single crystal engine blades beckons - as you aptly pointed out in your post.

If nationality was the crucial issue, technological rankings would never change. Japanese would never match European standards, Koreans would still be third world, and there would be no hope for us South Asians. I hope you see the absurdity of your claim.

Why do you think the americans wanted to steal the MIG 25 for---it was all about trying to find out about the materials and their composition.

Everybody loves shortcuts. And everybody would like to know what their enemies and competitors are up to. BTW are you saying that USSR's materials were better than US or European materials? Did the change of flags impact the quality of Russian materials?

Well here is the thing----if you guys want to keep talking about the JF 17 with the TRUTH THAT YOU KNOW OF---then I am going of keep talking about the truth that I know of.

If Munir and Oscar are engineers----the what do you think my background is in---.

Our discourse evolves over time as JF-17 program evolves through its stages. You on the other hand are stuck on one point and keep going around that ad-nauseum, ad-infinitum, ad-Can-not-give-up-ium. Many many years ago you said that it would take JF-17 eight years to be of any value. It is about eight years now, what has changed is that responsible people are stating that JF-17 can do this or that with this or that operational weapon, but you are still repeating your mantra as if nothing happened in last seven years.

Just remember not all missiles are created equal---.

Sure! Some are American, some are European, some are Russians, some are Chinese. They all have flags painted on them and all fighter pilots really need to do is to show the adversary the nationality of the missiles they carry and everybody can declare winners and losers based on that, and that is how everybody can happily go home.

And one last thing---please let Munir fight his own battles---.

You are here to fight battles? Good for you. Just do not be too surprised if a trout takes your bait when you have obviously meant it for salmon.

 

[alimobin memon]

Hi,

JF17 is going to be an awesome aircraft and it is going to take on everything in iaf's arsenal except for the su30.

SU 30 is a massive aircraft---it has a massive radar---it can carry a massive number of BVR missile and it can carry a massive jammer.

What I have been saying is---and many cannot understand----"When you send your near and dear---the sons of the soil---your warriors to fight your battles---in all fairness---you have to equip them with weapons capable to inflict equal harm on the enemy and come back in one piece.

SU 30 Is massive and powerful fighter yet its not an f22 in front of jf17 there is still reasonable probability that Jf17 can have some score too.

 

[SQ8]

You are an engineer----you know when what is being said does not match what is on the table.

I am not taking the word of the ACM----paf has lied to pakistanis for a long time---actually they have fooled pakistanis for the longest.

Here I have to disagree. I have had an opportunity to see what was on the table back in 2011...and what he says right now matches what was on the table back then. As an engineer, with empirical evidence in front of me.. I cannot disagree with what the AVM says.

 

[graphican]

SU 30 Is massive and powerful fighter yet its not an f22 in front of jf17 there is still reasonable probability that Jf17 can have some score too.

It lower RCS and BVR capabilities will produce not "some" but favorable result Inshallah. There were calculations done by informed members that JF-17 will "see" MKIs and launch attack first. But its not just matter of one aircraft vs the other, factually two technologies will be against each other and I have confidence that we are going to do very well with what we have. But still, Allah knows the best.

 

[MastanKhan]

Atoms, molecules carry little flags, and crystals sing national anthems.



Nothing time, money, and effort would not fix. I do not think Chinese are going to give up anytime soon.



Heard of it, but I doubt anyone would agree to your usage for Material nationality issues problem. What should they have called it back in the middle ages? Muslim steel (for religiously inclined) or Semitic steel (for those who would rather connect material science with race), or do the obvious thing by branding it with the place name connected with its trade?

I doubt if anyone would want to waste resources duplicating Damascus steel when far more practical problem of high temperature tolerance single crystal engine blades beckons - as you aptly pointed out in your post.

If nationality was the crucial issue, technological rankings would never change. Japanese would never match European standards, Koreans would still be third world, and there would be no hope for us South Asians. I hope you see the absurdity of your claim.



Everybody loves shortcuts. And everybody would like to know what their enemies and competitors are up to. BTW are you saying that USSR's materials were better than US or European materials? Did the change of flags impact the quality of Russian materials?



Our discourse evolves over time as JF-17 program evolves through its stages. You on the other hand are stuck on one point and keep going around that ad-nauseum, ad-infinitum, ad-Can-not-give-up-ium. Many many years ago you said that it would take JF-17 eight years to be of any value. It is about eight years now, what has changed is that responsible people are stating that JF-17 can do this or that with this or that operational weapon, but you are still repeating your mantra as if nothing happened in last seven years.



Sure! Some are American, some are European, some are Russians, some are Chinese. They all have flags painted on them and all fighter pilots really need to do is to show the adversary the nationality of the missiles they carry and everybody can declare winners and losers based on that, and that is how everybody can happily go home.



You are here to fight battles? Good for you. Just do not be too surprised if a trout takes your bait when you have obviously meant it for salmon.

Hi,

This post of yours---now you are all talk---all smoke---. It is being silly----. You are a better poster. Don't act stupid now.

 

[That Guy]

It is plausible, but we can not bank on it. Had US considered Pakistan as part of its long-term plans, we would not have seen sanctions and their effects on PAF to the extent that we have seen.

That was before the Asia pivot and when Pakistan wasn't considered a strategic partner. With the rise of China and the US's interests growing in Asia, Pakistan is on the US's radar. In fact, every US analyst says that it would be the worst disaster possible for US's long term goals in Asia for it to ignore Pakistan, or push it further towards China.

It's why we're seeing reconciliatory language from both sides, and surprisingly especially from the US.

Thing is that US thinks it has figured out how to make Pakistan do its bidding through $$ and used weapons. What Pakistan is doing is exactly the right thing to get out of the hole in which we have fallen. We can not depend on USA. That is the lesson of '90s and we must never ever forget it.

While true for the most part, I do however have to question the notion that Pakistan has learned it's lesson. It has quite frankly not. Sure, Pakistan is more wary of US interests and no longer trusts it, but that doesn't mean Pakistan will just give up it's partnership with the US. If anything, Pakistani politicians and military officials are probably already trying to deepen the two's long term relations.

Apart from diversification of our weapon's supplies, we must shun belligerence and improve ties with India to an extent that we may be able to suppress RAW & KHAD activities in Pakistan and focus on improving our economy. That would change the nature of our relation with USA too. Normality would be good for us, our region, and USA too.

This I agree with.

JF-17 is a key program in this strategy and this is its value for us. It allows us a measure of independence and a lot of confidence in pursuing our goals.

True. The JF-17 was never meant to be a high tech solution to PAF's problems, it was meant as a stepping stone to independence. The JF-17 is going to be used as a basis for any future PAF domestic developments, whether that's developing the program further, or building a truly indigenous fighter without the help of China.

 

[alimobin memon]

It lower RCS and BVR capabilities will produce not "some" but favorable result Inshallah. There were calculations done by informed members that JF-17 will "see" MKIs and launch attack first. But its not just matter of one aircraft vs the other, factually two technologies will be against each other and I have confidence that we are going to do very well with what we have. But still, Allah knows the best.

I did gave one theory here in PDF and to my friends too why JF17 can beat mki in good scale.
Jf17 "was" mean't to be a replacement for Mirage and F7 but when it was rolled out since then it has become more than just the replacement for f7 Mirage.

 

[SQ8]

These arguments of what the JF-17 is and is not have been going on in the same routine for years now. The Naysayers find all possible things that can go wrong with it ....while wishful thinkers cant seem to accept it less than the best. But the reality is easily gleaned from available knowledge. Even if I disregard what I know, there are plenty of interviews of personell involved with the project that tell us where the JF-17 stands today. It is the low end mix of the new revised PAF. A revised PAF that has F-16 block-52s forming the main deep strike element along with the MLUs.. and the JF-17s taking the role of mainstay body punchers.

This is quite the change of what was expected of the JF-17.. all things considered it was to be the main interceptor and air defence fighter.. now its the air defence aircraft, the battlefield interdiction jet.. the anti-ship aircraft and the SEAD asset. Regardless of the sceptics.. ask any person who actually has spent time in an educational intuition that teaches air warfare.. whose profession is such day in and day out.. They will testify it as rather impressive.

The aircraft is flying, its forming part of the force.. and it does have our adversaries more worried than they were five years ago.

 

[Armstrong]

These arguments of what the JF-17 is and is not have been going on in the same routine for years now. The Naysayers find all possible things that can go wrong with it ....while wishful thinkers cant seem to accept it less than the best. But the reality is easily gleaned from available knowledge. Even if I disregard what I know, there are plenty of interviews of personell involved with the project that tell us where the JF-17 stands today. It is the low end mix of the new revised PAF. A revised PAF that has F-16 block-52s forming the main deep strike element along with the MLUs.. and the JF-17s taking the role of mainstay body punchers.

This is quite the change of what was expected of the JF-17.. all things considered it was to be the main interceptor and air defence fighter.. now its the air defence aircraft, the battlefield interdiction jet.. the anti-ship aircraft and the SEAD asset. Regardless of the sceptics.. ask any person who actually has spent time in an educational intuition that teaches air warfare.. whose profession is such day in and day out.. They will testify it as rather impressive.

The aircraft is flying, its forming part of the force.. and it does have our adversaries more worried than they were five years ago.

Whats the difference between Interception, Air Defense & Battlefield Interdiction ?

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Whats the difference between Interception, Air Defense & Battlefield Interdiction ?

i dont know the difference between interceptor and air defence but i think they are the same as for battlefield interdiction it means Deep Air Support e.g attacking ground targets like radars

 

[Armstrong]

i dont know the difference between interceptor and air defence but i think they are the same as for battlefield interdiction it means Deep Air Support e.g attacking ground targets like radars

Isn't that SEAD - Suppression of Enemy Air Defense !