JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

[SQ8]

Hi,

It is good to be nationalistic---but when poster start lying on matters of defence---that is being deceptive to the nation.

Munir----your post as always is full of bluster and BS----SU 30 has been flying in indian colors for 13 + years---with a full load of BVR missiles.

JF 17 still does not have a fully operational aircraft with a fully operational and deployed SD10's.

So in other words, you are not calling a member here, but the Deputy Project Director a Liar? You are more qualified than he to talk on the subject with authority?

Please refer to this interview here
JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5] | Page 180

And specifically where it states that the aircraft is fully qualified for Quick Reaction Alert Missions with the SD-10.

 

[Arsalan]

Leadership for the forces or leadership for the whole country?

For the whole country indeed. Leadership that can bring economy back on track, is serious and sensible with there foreign policy and how they shape up the image of Pakistan in international community!

Regarding the JF-17 and its future role, with whatever little funds we have available, this project must be our top priority. Unless we can get hands on to some F-16 funded by US (highly unlikely) i do not see PAF investing a dime more in F-16, specially with JF-17 available as an alternative.
Provided this goes as per plan, i do not see FC-20 is PAF colors, with or without Rafale deal going through!
The funds are most wisely utilized in upgrading JF-17 to next level, IFR, FLIR, extended load capacity, latter on, more powerful engine and thus better radar (AESA most probably). Inputs coming in from Chinese 5th generation projects and also even FC-20 itself. This should be, in my view, the way forward.It will nullify the requirement of FC-20 and PAF can jump to 5th generation in a decade or so (that is when the region will start arming itself with 5th generation planes)

 

[khail007]

Ah... MK sb, but we will get it regardless of the difficulties.

One day you would (grudgingly) admit that JF-17 has been a game changer for Pakistan and that it was a good decision.

@Chak Bamu

Not grudgingly; but we wish him (unbiasedly presented righteous opinions about JF17) to accept whole heartedly. Mr MK is a knowledgeable and respected member of the forum, but his opinion about JF17 not matching with ours and he logically presented the case with reasons. We enthusiastically matching the JF17 with some proven and potent state of the art war machines, the miss-understanding starts from that point. We all love JF17, but still it has a long way to go. In its own class, it seems to have a potential. In my opinion, usually we are comparing e.g. feather weight or bantam weight fighter with a heavy weight champions.

 

[VCheng]

For the whole country indeed. Leadership that can bring economy back on track, is serious and sensible with there foreign policy and how they shape up the image of Pakistan in international community!

Regarding the JF-17 and its future role, with whatever little funds we have available, this project must be our top priority. Unless we can get hands on to some F-16 funded by US (highly unlikely) i do not see PAF investing a dime more in F-16, specially with JF-17 available as an alternative.
Provided this goes as per plan, i do not see FC-20 is PAF colors, with or without Rafale deal going through!
The funds are most wisely utilized in upgrading JF-17 to next level, IFR, FLIR, extended load capacity, latter on, more powerful engine and thus better radar (AESA most probably). Inputs coming in from Chinese 5th generation projects and also even FC-20 itself. This should be, in my view, the way forward.It will nullify the requirement of FC-20 and PAF can jump to 5th generation in a decade or so (that is when the region will start arming itself with 5th generation planes)

I agree that the health of the economy going forward will make the biggest impact on PAF's future acquisitions, but with funds likely to remain short or tight, the JF-17 does offer the biggest bang for the buck with its development as you have highlighted. A better engine would be an important part, but perhaps unaffordably costly.

 

[Chak Bamu]

@Chak Bamu

Not grudgingly; but we wish him (unbiasedly presented righteous opinions about JF17) to accept whole heartedly. Mr MK is a knowledgeable and respected member of the forum, but his opinion about JF17 not matching with ours and he logically presented the case with reasons. We enthusiastically matching the JF17 with some proven and potent state of the art war machines, the miss-understanding starts from that point. We all love JF17, but still it has a long way to go. In its own class, it seems to have a potential. In my opinion, usually we are comparing e.g. feather weight or bantam weight fighter with a heavy weight champions.

1. I have been reading @MastanKhan sb's posts on this and other forums for many years. I do not think you really need to tell me how, where, & whys of what he says and means.

2. You analogy of bantam weight (I was that 25 yrs ago) vs heavy weight fighter is flawed. In all martial arts, the power of hit from a lighter weight fighter doe not usually equal that of the heavier weight fighter. Though a well placed hit delivered with good technique and full-bodied commitment can knock out a heavy fighter, aircraft trade BVR missiles, SRAAMs, and guns. So in this case the 'hit' is fairly independent of fighter's size. One could say something about size of gun, and bullets (23mm vs. 30 mm. etc...), but that would be quibbling.

Scalability issues can not be ignored either, smaller fighter has a smaller radar, but also smaller RCS. Smaller fighter carries less and might have a smaller TWR, but their smaller size makes them hard to spot and track. Smaller fighters can typically roll faster and JF-17 is an excellent example in this case.

Where the differences do matter is in endurance. That is where smaller fighters are at a disadvantage; range and # of missiles.

So I hope you can see that your analogy does not quite fit here.

3. Appreciation for JF-17 should be independent of its or observer's nationality. It has to exist, equip, and fight on its merits, not blind nationalist sentiments.

 

[MastanKhan]

I
The F16A did nice job against Russians but we had to learn to master it (and the AIM9!).

Munir,

Here is another one of your lies---. The F 16 A flew sorties against obsolete russian aircraft that were no match to the F 16's and that also inside pakistani soil being directed by the ground radar controller who was not under any threat.

Those russian aircraft had radars that could not lead a blind man thru a lit alley. PAF should not set their sights so low for victories---. It is like pakistani cricket team beating teams like Kenya and canada---not even zimbabwe.

 

[MastanKhan]

Oscar,

I read that interview. The bottomline is that it is at the same stage when the JF17 first came out and all the pakistani entourage was claiming as if the aircraft has conquered the known skies.

SD 10 is in the integration stage---. Once they declare that there is full fledged deployment of SD 10's for all the sdrn aircrafts---. There is nothing of that sort at this time.

As for the ACM---he may talk whatever he wants to----the mechanics don't tell the truth.

You are an engineer----you know when what is being said does not match what is on the table.

I am not taking the word of the ACM----paf has lied to pakistanis for a long time---actually they have fooled pakistanis for the longest.

 

[Informant]

Oscar,

I read that interview. The bottomline is that it is at the same stage when the JF17 first came out and all the pakistani entourage was claiming as if the aircraft has conquered the known skies.

SD 10 is in the integration stage---. Once they declare that there is full fledged deployment of SD 10's for all the sdrn aircrafts---. There is nothing of that sort at this time.

As for the ACM---he may talk whatever he wants to----the mechanics don't tell the truth.

You are an engineer----you know when what is being said does not match what is on the table.

I am not taking the word of the ACM----paf has lied to pakistanis for a long time---actually they have fooled pakistanis for the longest.

How about the original team member/engineer ( systems engineer ) attached to JF-17 program since inception. His words aren't good enough when SD-10's have been tested with exceptional results. These testings conducted in Gobi desert over 2 years now.

And yes they are operational. Choose what you want to believe.

 

[MastanKhan]

And yes they are operational. Choose what you want to believe.

Hi,

Thank you for the post---. The thing is that when you are the underdog---you just can't believe everything that is being said.

PAF has put all its eggs in one basket----this basket already had its handle broken and the eggs spilled and broken on the concrete when the french scraped the radar and weapons package for JF17.

Okay---so it was tested in Gobi desert for 2 years---have all the tests that are needed to be done before full deployment in pakistan have been done in pakistan.

So---then the question is what version of the sd 10 was made operational on the JF 17. Have the rules of engagement been established and hi and low points determined.

And the most important thing of all---how can one tell what will the missile do in actual deployment and full combat excercises.

Now as for the F16's and Aim 120----we already know what it will do when you pick it of the rack from that air conditioned room---put it on a dolly---load it on the aircraft in blistering summer heat---the aircaft takes off and flies to freezing temps ate 50000 ft elevation----rain---sleet---ice----then it comes down in two hours and there is an instant thaw at temps rising to 105 deg---.

Now this missile is not a test missile---it will be taken off and be put back on the rack. How is humidity and icing and oxidation and rust play with it---only time can tell.

Can the time tell the same story for aim 120---absolutely----it has grown over the years to mature----now how about the russian bvr's for the su30---same thing---good or bad---the operator knows the kind of job they would do.

JF 17 is a pure speculation at this stage---. The air force is feeding what the followers want to listen to. Pakistani posters need to change that mentality---they are settling for less---they need to push the air force for better and higher standards.

If you people want to be honest with your country---you need to ask the paf for more---less is not satisfactory---small is not satisfactory---excuses are not satisfactory---sob stories are not acceptable---.

This is not disney movie---Little peanuts is not going to devouer the big monster---this is real life---.

There is no place for this aircraft in a defensive form---. If india had 50 su30 and you had a 100 JF17's---I would say okay---but with the current numbers withstanding---this plane has not much of a chance. For ground strike missions it will be very good---but not for air superiority that pak needs the most.

 

[Kompromat]

 

[Informant]

Hi,

Thank you for the post---. The thing is that when you are the underdog---you just can't believe everything that is being said.

PAF has put all its eggs in one basket----this basket already had its handle broken and the eggs spilled and broken on the concrete when the french scraped the radar and weapons package for JF17.

Okay---so it was tested in Gobi desert for 2 years---have all the tests that are needed to be done before full deployment in pakistan have been done in pakistan.

So---then the question is what version of the sd 10 was made operational on the JF 17. Have the rules of engagement been established and hi and low points determined.

And the most important thing of all---how can one tell what will the missile do in actual deployment and full combat excercises.

Now as for the F16's and Aim 120----we already know what it will do when you pick it of the rack from that air conditioned room---put it on a dolly---load it on the aircraft in blistering summer heat---the aircaft takes off and flies to freezing temps ate 50000 ft elevation----rain---sleet---ice----then it comes down in two hours and there is an instant thaw at temps rising to 105 deg---.

Now this missile is not a test missile---it will be taken off and be put back on the rack. How is humidity and icing and oxidation and rust play with it---only time can tell.

Can the time tell the same story for aim 120---absolutely----it has grown over the years to mature----now how about the russian bvr's for the su30---same thing---good or bad---the operator knows the kind of job they would do.

JF 17 is a pure speculation at this stage---. The air force is feeding what the followers want to listen to. Pakistani posters need to change that mentality---they are settling for less---they need to push the air force for better and higher standards.

If you people want to be honest with your country---you need to ask the paf for more---less is not satisfactory---small is not satisfactory---excuses are not satisfactory---sob stories are not acceptable---.

This is not disney movie---Little peanuts is not going to devouer the big monster---this is real life---.

There is no place for this aircraft in a defensive form---. If india had 50 su30 and you had a 100 JF17's---I would say okay---but with the current numbers withstanding---this plane has not much of a chance. For ground strike missions it will be very good---but not for air superiority that pak needs the most.

JF-17 isn't an Air Superiority fighter, we dont have any actually. It is for point defence, CAS and interceptor role. Which is the backbone of the Airforce. Now 120 took years to mature in tactics, 10 will take remarkably less time owing to indepth know how of the system.

No AF is 100% upto tasks as it takes time to mature with new systems and the ever evolving nature of military tactics.

 

[Chak Bamu]

@MastanKhan,

1. @Munir is not lying, he is telling the truth. You may wish to find fault with him, but what you high-lighted is not it. Your explanation of how and where you consider him wrong is flawed. He never said anything about Russian aircraft and their radars. He merely observed that PAF had gained experience with F-16 and AIM-9 over the years. Your reply assumes that he said something about how difficult it was to fight Russian aircraft. That is where your emotions dictated your analysis.

2. You are making a point about environmental factors affecting a weapon and raising doubts about SD-10 as opposed to AIM-120. You forget that SD-10 has gone through updates and has been in use for quite some years now. The scenario you depicted is routine, airliners go through that all the time. One would think that when it comes to an operational missile, the impact of environmental factors would be accounted for during design phase and that impact of such factors would be thoroughly evaluated during testing. After all, declaring a weapon to be operational is not child's play.

One would also think that perhaps a person with your knowledge and experience would realize that components used in military system follow military specification in terms of range & spectrum of environmental factors encountered during usage. One would also think that you would appreciate the importance of simple and effective measures, such as use of high quality rubber seals to create barriers to isolate effects of temperature and humidity upon components. But alas, you are no better than those who consider nationality and origin to be most important determinants of quality. You may denigrate / censure a fanboy for assuming that JF-17 is the best aircraft in the skies. But do you realize that you are doing exactly the same, but in opposite direction; ie. assuming that Chinese do not know what they are doing when they entrust the defense of their nation to weapons like SD-10, even though SD-10 has gone through multiple design iterations? Do you think that they would use non-military spec components to save money? Do you think that they would compromise quality of materials used in manufacturing missiles to deliberately make defective weapons? Do you think that Aluminum, rubber, and silicone act differently when used for making AIM-120 than when used in SD-10? Do materials & materials science have nationality issues? Do you consider SD-10 series missiles to be of comparable quality to the children's toys? Do you think that quoting figures like 105 degrees (F), 50,000 ft, etc... impresses an engineer like Oscar, or Munir, or even me to accept your flawed analysis?

Sir, Oscar, Munir, and many others here are engineers and perhaps they understand the technical issues far better than you. Your logic, style of exposition, may impress a mere fanboy, but not us.

3. Sir, every other post of yours is about incompetence of PAF. You must have some logic and I understand some of it. But despite all that, PAF works for us. I do not see IAF jets frolicking in our airspace, like Israeli jets do in Lebanese airspace. I do not see that our armed forces have been beaten into submission by our enemies by their superior missiles and planes. I see that foreign armies and air forces send their cadets to be trained in Pakistan. Do they not know how horrible PA, PAF, etc are? I see that our personnel are deployed in friendly countries. Should they not be sent back because of supposed (by you) low standards of PAF, etc...?

Your constant complaining about PAF gets on nerves sometimes. Yeah, PDF members well know about your theories of how PAF messed up when they did not buy M2K, we also know how much of a failure is JF-17 with its non-European avionics & other systems, but can we please not repeat this ad-nauseum and actually move on?

 

[That Guy]

I think that those who fly the Block 52 know that is is a superb machine, yet they know the price and the risks. The F16A did nice job against Russians but we had to learn to master it (and the AIM9!). The C/D is a much better machine but how sure can we be if we know that we have sealed components like every other user and the opponent might get some codes or jamming signals... Can you really trust anyone?

With that sort of thinking, we shouldn't import any sort of weapon system.

The fact is that the US won't give up it's military secrets to anyone, even to India. The US realizes that it can't partner with India or control it like it can the Pakistani gov. It also realizes that long after the Afghan war is over, Pakistan will still remain it's only real Asian ally in all of Central and South Asia. We may make fun of the US, but one thing they're not is stupid. They're planning long term goals, and those goals include a friendly Pakistan.

 

[farhan_9909]

I believe Sir @MastanKhan Will start admiring JF-17 when in a possible next skirmish with Indian air force,He would have shot down a couples of mig 29 and MKI

 

[MastanKhan]

"Do you think that Aluminum, rubber, and silicone act differently when used for making AIM-120 than when used in SD-10? Do materials & materials science have nationality issues? Do you consider SD-10 series missiles to be of comparable quality to the children's toys? Do you think that quoting figures like 105 degrees (F), 50,000 ft, etc... impresses an engineer like Oscar, or Munir, or even me to accept your flawed analysis?"


Chak bamu,

Funny man you are---. Off course---material sciences have nationality issues---didn't you know that----.

Why do you think there are problems with the compressor blades on that ws engine---the chinese can't figure out the right proportion of alloys---.

Ever heard of damascus steel----they still talk about its nationality---and can't duplicate it.

Why do you think the americans wanted to steal the MIG 25 for---it was all about trying to find out about the materials and their composition.

Well here is the thing----if you guys want to keep talking about the JF 17 with the TRUTH THAT YOU KNOW OF---then I am going of keep talking about the truth that I know of.

If Munir and Oscar are engineers----the what do you think my background is in---.

Just remember not all missiles are created equal---.

And one last thing---please let Munir fight his own battles---.