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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

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A blog from mid-1990's

New Acquisitions
With the F-16 option blocked out, Pakistan Air Force has evaluated aircraft from France and Russia, but it seems almost certain that Pakistan would have to rely on its old friend China to seek the future procurement's. Pakistan is curently taking delivery of the F-7MG but desperately needs to fill the gap left by the embargoed F-16. This could result in two options from china. Pakistan has long standing interest in the FC-1 super seven aircraft being developed in China by Chengdu Aircraft Corporation. There are indications that Chengdu may not proceed with this project and have instead offered Pakistan the F-7FM fighter

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F7-FM This could be the future of PAF

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FC-1 Super Seven

Finally Pakistan joined the CAC's Super-7 program in 1999, almost 20years after the start of the program..
 
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@Imran Khan: In Block-II which radar will PAF choose??? Again they will go for KLJ-5 or some other??? which options have PAF??? I heard that PAC Kamra is working on radar research with Itaian Selex Galalio!!! @fatman17 @nuclearpak
 
News from July 1999

China and Pakistan agree on Super-7 fighter development work
Source: 00:00 14 Jul 1999

China and Pakistan have signed an agreement on the joint development and pro

China and Pakistan have signed an agreement on the joint development and production of theChengdu FC-1/Super 7 fighter, firming up a memorandum of understanding (MoU) signed two years ago.

According to Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Group (CAC), the agreement was signed at the end of June during a visit to Beijing by Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. It was co-signed by Chinese premier Zhu Rongji. The details of the contract are not being released. CAC says the workshare packages remain to be worked out.

The aircraft is to fly in 2001 and should be in service by 2005, says CAC. It is being developed in a 50-50 partnership between the two countries, to meet a Pakistani light fighter requirement believed to number 150 aircraft. Agreement was delayed by Pakistan's financial difficulties. Pakistan also made it a pre-condition that the Chinese air force commit to the aircraft. (Interesting to note that FC-1 is still not in operation in PLAAF)

Avionics may be supplied by either Fiar or Thomson-CSF, after Marconi Electronic Systems, which had been pushing to enter the programme, failed to submit a tender (Flight International, 7-13 July). The winner will have to share development costs with China and Pakistan, recouping its expenditure from the production phase. (All FC-1 avionics are Chinese at present)

Fiar has proposed an avionics and sensor suite based around the Grifo S7 radar being developed for the Super 7, while Thomson-CSF is proposing a system built around the RC400 radar (All FC-1 RADARs are Chinese at present)
 
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[quote="VCheng, post: 5206248, membedissatisfied withInteresting thougJFT.Iere, butoI have said what I have said all along pretty consistently. I do appreciate the help though unneeded. :D

Back to the topic, I can see the progress being made. With the IFR in place,platformdo youengine aceuel is not as much of an issue. With long range missiles and avionics giving better BVR capabilities, the less than ideal T:W ratio or WVR agility is not as important.

I think the PAF is clearly on the right track with the project despite mounting financial constraints, but to claim that it is leading the pack with the JF-17 is simply incorrect.[/quote]
But kind Sir
I have responded only to your objections regarding the sale of JFT.I jave never claimed JFT to be a super duper machine fit for the most advanced aliens to flyinstead of their space ship. JFT fulfills the needs of the PAF to have an affordable BVR carrying platform which is sanction free.Its capabilities given its price plus thslack pf strongs Iis what makes it a viable platform just like the F7series. A lot of the buyers have meagre pockets but need the arms the of 21st century at affordable price. That rather than it being a super duper machine is its selling point.
secondly the engine that you are so dissatisfied with gives the plane a ratio of 0.96.which is not bad by any stretch of imaginations.
Thirdly WS13 which you have enquired about is in advanced stages of trial and we may see it on FC1 in numbers by 2015. Whether it makes it to the JFT or the red bear offers us an uprated 100 kt machine is something to be seen. You dont want toloose business to the newbie do you??
araz
 
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But kind Sir
I have responded only to your objections regarding the sale of JFT.I jave never claimed JFT to be a super duper machine fit for the most advanced aliens to flyinstead of their space ship. JFT fulfills the needs of the PAF to have an affordable BVR carrying platform which is sanction free.Its capabilities given its price plus thslack pf strongs Iis what makes it a viable platform just like the F7series. A lot of the buyers have meagre pockets but need the arms the of 21st century at affordable price. That rather than it being a super duper machine is its selling point.
secondly the engine that you are so dissatisfied with gives the plane a ratio of 0.96.which is not bad by any stretch of imaginations.
Thirdly WS13 which you have enquired about is in advanced stages of trial and we may see it on FC1 in numbers by 2015. Whether it makes it to the JFT or the red bear offers us an uprated 100 kt machine is something to be seen. You dont want toloose business to the newbie do you??
araz

Yes, the JF-17 is well suited to the needs of the PAF. However, it will take a wee bit more than being a great Suzuki Mehran of the skies to register sales successes abroad. But what's the rush, eh? Let the production go to replenishing PAF's fleet first.

Your fervent sales pitch will seem more credible once a sale actually happens. I will be among the first to congratulate you then. :D
 
Blog from 1999

PAC Super 7/ Chengdu FC-1 fighter

Development
In 1990 China's CATIC was looking for new partners for its Super 7 fighter programme to replace Grumman, whose involvement was put on ice by the US Government in the wake of last year's Tiananmen Square massacre in Beijing.
In June of 1995, Chengdu Aircraft (CAC) had teamed with Mikoyan MAPO to design and produce a single-engined fighter to replace China's then defunct Super 7 project. The cancellation of the project was the result of US sanctions and withdrawal of support. In a bid to find another country to co-develop the fighter with, CAC teamed up with Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and China National Aero-Technology Import and Export (CATIC). The result of the new project was the FC-1, a private venture funded by the fore mentioned companies. Pakistan and China have a 50% each share in the program.

The development of FC-1 began in 1991 and by the mid-90s it was in a detailed design phase. By that time two partial forward and rear fuselage mockups had been completed. Plans for a two seat version were also in progress. Design help had come in shape of Mikoyan who also provided a team of engineers to CAC. The new plane therefore has a resemblance to the canceled Mig-33, a design developed in the early 1980s for a lightweight dog-fight aircraft. The FC-1 however, differs from the original Mig-33 in its adaptation of twin side-mounted air intakes.

FC-1 has been designed around the 81.4kN (18, 300lb)- thrust Klimov RD-93 turbofan possibly to be licence-built by Liyang Machinery (LMC). The engine is an improved modular development if the RD-33 engine that powers the Mig 29 series if aircraft and was also intended to power the Mig-33. It also has mid-mounted delta wings that will have two under-wing and one wing-tip pylons for weapon carrying each.

The aircraft is primarily aimed for the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) which has a stated requirement for at least 150 aircraft. CATIC is pushing for support from the Aviation Industries of China (AVIC) and is confident of selling the lightweight fighter to China's PLA air force. However, there have been no public feedback from the Chinese air force on the matter. CATIC says Pakistan industry's involvement in manufacturing the aircraft is not yet decided, but it is likely to produce the wings and fin.

The FC-1 project was initially supposed to have the maiden flight in 1997 with production in 1999. However, these dates have slipped forward repeatedly and now the first flight is supposed to take place in 2001 and the planned induction into service by 2005 according to the CAC officials. The delays are partially due to non-availability of funding from Pakistan due to its financial constraints and reluctance of China to buy this fighter because of its development if the new generation F-10 fighter program.

Avionics/Sensor Suite
Another reason for delay has been the decision of an avionics suite that will go into the PAF purchased fighters. As early as 1995 Pakistan was looking towards a number of European manufacturers to select a radar, avionics suite and a system integrator. That decision has still to be taken.

Pakistan's requirements are for a complete range of avionics, including multi-mode pulse-Doppler radar, stores management system, inertial-navigation system and radar altimeter, head-up display and multi-function displays. The terms of the FC-1 contract require that the successful contender be willing to invest as a risk sharing partner and recover its outlay over four years of production. The contenders are GEC-Marconi, Thompson CSF, FIAR and Phazotron.

GEC-Marconi is offering an avionics package featuring the light weight Blue Hawk multi-mode radar and integrated sensor suite. The first prototype of the GEC Ferranti Blue Hawk pulse-Doppler fighter radar underwent extensive system proving at the company's Milton Keynes site in the UK in 1992. Aimed at the light combat aircraft and retrofit market, the dual-mode air-to-air and air-to-ground radar is a new development based on the use of existing technologies. The company sees the Blue Hawk as a competitor to systems such as Westinghouse's APG-66, GE Aerospace's APG-67, ESCO's APG-69, as well as FIAR's Grifo and Elta's EL/M 2035.

GEC Ferranti's director of military marketing, AVM George Black, says: "Blue Hawk is designed for those nations seeking a cost-effective way to move into all-weather day and night-fighter operations. Whether the objective is met with new or retrofitted aircraft, they will require a modern pulse-Doppler radar."

Potential launch customers for the Blue Hawk, expected to be ready for service-entry around 1995, include operators of British Aerospace's Hawk 200; Chengdu Aircraft's Super 7 development of the F-7M Airguard (potential customers include Pakistan and China), and Shenyang Aircraft's J-8 II Finback B - if China decides to go ahead with an upgrade.

GEC Ferranti says the system features high, medium and low pulse- repetition frequency waveforms and automation to reduce workload. Full power is available in all modes of operation.

CATIC and CAC were expected to choose GEC-Marconi as its preferred radar and cockpit-avionics supplier by the end of 1996. The final decision, however, will need the end user's approval. In October 1996 PAF asked China to forward its recommendations for a supplier. The move is intended to speed up the program, which was than running more than a year behind its latest revised schedule.

Chinese industry sources said that familiarity with existing GEC-Marconi systems makes it China's preferred supplier. The UK company has already supplied the head-up display (HUD) and Skyranger radar for the CAC F-7M and multi-mode Super Skyranger for the follow-on F-7MG fighter.

CATIC has unveiled a mock-up of the FC-1 cockpit, fitted with a GEC- Marconi raster-compatible HUD, with 25o field of view, and twin multi- function head-down displays. There will also be a stores-management system, an inertial-navigation system, with an embedded global- positioning system (GPS), and an air-data computer.

French Thompson-CSF is proposing its RC 400 radar with an avionics package from Sextant Avionique. The Radars & Contre-Mesures (RCM) division of Thompson-CSF launched the series of a new airborne fire-control radar, RC 400 in July 1997. It is aimed to fill the gap in the current market between the company's lightweight RCD and the current RYD radar of the Mirage 2000.

The RC 400 is designed for lightweight fighter and trainer aircraft. It is of modular construction. The 287-lb (130kg) radar has a power consumption of 3.6kVA and is in the 55nm (102km)- range class in air-to-air mode. The RC 400 consists of a monopulse, flat, slotted-array (eliptical or circular) antenna unit with IFF transponder; an air-cooled X-band transmitter; a two-channel exciter/receiver with a wide dynamic range; and a signal/data processing unit of one G flop capacity. Flight testing of the radar began in 1998.

Italy's FIAR's Grifo radar is understood to be the favorite for the FC-1 for PAF. Pakistan already had selected the Grifo M and Grifo 7 versions respectively for its Mirage III and F-7 fleet upgrades. FIAR is proposing a Sagem avionics package allied with the Grifo S7 radar, similar to Grifo 7. It is a fire control radar with range-while-search, velocity search, track with scan, single target track situation awareness and air combat modes. FIAR has supplied 100 Grifo 7 and 65 Grifo M radars to Pakistan to date.

Russia's Phazotron has proposed fitting the FC-1 with its multi-mode Super Komar radar, based on the Kopyo radar offered on the upgraded Mig-21-93. The Super Komar equipment incorporates a new digital signal and data processor. This however will be an unlikely choice for Pakistan since the Kopyo radar also forms the basis of the Indian Air Force upgrade of its Mig-21 fleet.

The indigenous pulse Doppler radar, the JL-10A, being pursued by the Chinese electronics specialist CLETRI uses the planar antenna from Phazotron radar as its transmitter.

Weapons
FC-1 is supposed to carry short and medium-range missiles on seven weapon stations in roughly the same class as the US F-16., along with a 23 mm gun. The main armament for the Pakistani planes will be Sidewinder class IR seeking missiles as well as BVR missiles from yet an undecided source. According to Pakistan's cheif of air staff Air Cheif Marshal Parvaiz Mehdi Qureshi PAF is looking at French (Matra-BAe) Mica, the Russian AA-12, South Africa's Denel Darter series and the Chinese PL-10 as possible options.

Early last year Denel offered Pakistan a package of air-to-air weaponry that included a proposed joint development of a datalink-equipped radar-guided BVR missile. Pakistan confirmed it is evaluating active-guided BVR missiles including the T-Darter developed by Denel's Kentron.

T-Darter is understood to be a further development of radar-equiped R-Darter now in low-rate production and ramjet-powered S-Darter or LRAAM. The missile would incoporate a datalink for mid-course guidance updates and effective target engagements at ranges in excess of 50km (27nm). Denel's proposal also includes the short-range A-Darter missile.

The UOMZ SH-3UMI helmet-mounted sight, used on the Mig-29, may also be integrated into the FC-1.

Current status
In March 1998 China and Pakistan signed a letter of intent (LOI) covering joint development and production of the FC-1, breaking a long hiatus in the program's progress. It also firmed up a memorandum of understanding (MoU) signed an year earlier.

In July of 1999 an agreement was finally signed during the visit of Pakistan's Prime Minister to Beijing with Chinese premier Zhu Rongji. The details of the contract have not been released and according to CAC the workshare package remains to be worked out. The plane will fly in 2001 and should be in service by 2005. Atleast three flying prototypes will be built along with two static frames already completed. Production is planned to start in 2003. However, according to some industry sources this might be too optimistic as is the proposed price of $15 million.
 
News from July 1999

China and Pakistan agree on Super-7 fighter development work
Source: 00:00 14 Jul 1999

The aircraft is to fly in 2001 and should be in service by 2005, says CAC.


The aircraft flew in 2003 and in service in 2010. Supposedly, the original cheap design was thrown out and a design second to none was developed in place. JF-17 serial production version has full glass cockpit, DSI, full fly by wire, features the original design lacked to cut cost.
 
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[quoteaccVCheng, post: 5206302, member: 32635"]Yes, the JF-17 is well suited to the needs of the PAF. However, it will take a wee bit more than being a great Suzuki Mehran of the skies to register sales successes abroad. But what's the rush, eh? Let the production go to replenishing PAF's fleet first.

Your fervent sales pitch will seem more credible once a sale actually happens. I will be among the first to congratulate you then. :D[/quote]
Iwill accept nothing less than a cull tokra of mithai from Amballa
Araz
 
Yes, the JF-17 is well suited to the needs of the PAF. However, it will take a wee bit more than being a great Suzuki Mehran of the skies to register sales successes abroad. But what's the rush, eh? Let the production go to replenishing PAF's fleet first.

Your fervent sales pitch will seem more credible once a sale actually happens. I will be among the first to congratulate you then. :D
when i joined this forum i drew the same analogy but unlike you i was taken down from the thread. :(
 
Sure, no problem.

Didn't Bangladesh just buy some Yak-24s? Sales successes for the JF-17 are going to be very hard to bring about due to the fierce nature of international competition for such military sales. The funny thing is the spin put on such things. Pakistan offers the JF-17 to Saudi Arabia, and the headlines claim they are interested in buying. One such planted story then gets quoted umpteen times. Good press, but the end result is still zero.

I think you should pay attention you are research & dev member you should know that currently the government in bangladesh is not in good terms with Pakistan and Chinese are wary to deal with them in providing something that is shared by both china and Pakistan. Settle down and stop jumping high again you have a poor assessment of the situation. You being a research analysis member should know deals are not like buying a few popsicles. F-16 is one example a success product to be sold and selling hot up till now since 35 years, give it a time FC-1/JF-17 shall have its success still there are mig-21/f-5/j-7 operators who are still cash strapped would go for such a platform. For you research atleast 15-17 nations are operating J-7/F-7 and 15-20 nations mig-21. Other than that you might be right in few point here and there but over all you need to do more research.

For F-22 with respect american know 0 about pak-fa/j-20 projects and have absolutely no data/info on these projects, Chinese atleast are not cash strapped by US/russians and currently sitting on huge pile of cash and i don't think their financial back would be broken easily. It is in itself an achievement to have stealth product however it may have some short coming related to avionics atelast we should appreciate Chinese who were living in an 50'/60's era with j-7/j-6/a-5s this is a huge plus for country like Pakistan that can we absorb information from them.
 
@VCheng, JF-17 can surely give Su-30MKI a good run for its money. There is nothing Su-30MKI has that JF-17 Block 2 does not.

Well, a second engine, for starters, the JF-17 does not have, and its maximum take off weight is only about a third of the bigger jet.

I think you should pay attention you are research & dev member you should know that currently the government in bangladesh is not in good terms with Pakistan and Chinese are wary to deal with them in providing something that is shared by both china and Pakistan. Settle down and stop jumping high again you have a poor assessment of the situation. You being a research analysis member should know deals are not like buying a few popsicles. F-16 is one example a success product to be sold and selling hot up till now since 35 years, give it a time FC-1/JF-17 shall have its success still there are mig-21/f-5/j-7 operators who are still cash strapped would go for such a platform. For you research atleast 15-17 nations are operating J-7/F-7 and 15-20 nations mig-21. Other than that you might be right in few point here and there but over all you need to do more research.

For F-22 with respect american know 0 about pak-fa/j-20 projects and have absolutely no data/info on these projects, Chinese atleast are not cash strapped by US/russians and currently sitting on huge pile of cash and i don't think their financial back would be broken easily. It is in itself an achievement to have stealth product however it may have some short coming related to avionics atelast we should appreciate Chinese who were living in an 50'/60's era with j-7/j-6/a-5s this is a huge plus for country like Pakistan that can we absorb information from them.

Quite the useless rant, but I intentionally gave the example of Bangladesh as an example of a cash-strapped airforce looking to replace its aging fleet, given all the complications of international relations, and going with other choices.
 
Well, a second engine, for starters, the JF-17 does not have, and its maximum take off weight is only about a third of the bigger jet.

Quite the useless rant, but I intentionally gave the example of Bangladesh as an example of a cash-strapped airforce looking to replace its aging fleet, given all the complications of international relations, and going with other choices.

I think you should quit the pointless rant, JFT is developed for PAF initially keeping in mind the specs Pakistan Air Force needed this should be more than enough for you whether Pak applies 80's 90's technologies or not leave it to them if it exceed the requirements more than other 3 Types in service that is huge boost for PAF with-in budget. Yeah right bangla example tried to play but failed. Second being an arm chair general you are in no position to declare this platform's sales of the future to be zero YOU DON'T KNOW zilch. Lastly the blocks that this aircraft is going to come in is meant to incrementally apply latest technologies keeping the costs in mind eventually this aircraft is going to be around $30m or so naturally affordable? of course! the economy is not going to be 1% nor is it. BACK TO Thread topic.
 
Block 2 JTF has AESA, IRST, wide angle holographic HUD from J-10B. Su-30MKI only has thrust vectoring advantage. Overall, Su-30MKI is not as advanced as Block 2 JFT.

Stop spreading misinformation. Block 2 doesn't have AESA,I RST or the holographic HUD

So, basically you don't have specific information on the capabilities of FC-1 Blk2 and everything is based on mere speculation. Still you contend FC-1 Blk2 is better than a proven platform like Su-30 MKI which is from a completely different category from that of FC-1.

JF-17 Block 2 would have static IFR, Improved avionics and ECM. Radar in Block 1 and 2 is KLJ(V)2. It's detection range for 5 m^2 target is 130-140 KM and for 3 m^2 it is 111 KM
 
Are you trying to build public opinion? :stop:
You will be more successful, if you pull such brilliance on forums trusted by Saudis. :sarcastic:

JF-17 has inspiration from best of a/c technologies, e.g. Gripen, F-35, F-16, F-18 etc. Its aerodynamics are second to non.
Metal construction means nothing, its a war plane not a luxury jet, that should be made out of fiber composites.
Mercedes have S class and G class, both have different design philosophy.

Tejas is shit design, its drag has even surprised its designer, it didn't had MFD until they saw JF-17's cockpit, there panel was a junk of wires, until they saw JF-17's plug and play design.
As we speak, Indians are considering copy JF-17's design and discarding Tejas.

If such post would had been made in any indian forum.I am sure by now your post would have atleast more than 10 thanks
 
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