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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

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Don't know if posted before...




1. JF-17s will not have CFTs
(Conformal Fuel Tanks).
2. The present batch of JF-17s has
certain non-Chinese subsystems.
3. Air to Air missile tests for both
WVR and BVR are complete.
4. PAF is impressed with the
performance of SD-10s and confirms
that the missile is comparable to the
AMRAAM-Cs.
5. An improved SD-10s, designated
here as SD-10Bs with improved
range, seeker, new motor and better
seeker has been tested in China on
the FC-1. These missiles are
marginally lighter than the first
generation and are in the same
standard as the best Western BVR
AAMs.
The weight of the SD-10Bs still
remains slightly greater than the
AMRAAM Cs but this is not an issue
anymore because the performance is
equal or superior. The missiles
displayed in Zhuhai were not the new
generation SD-10Bs but the earlier
model.
PAF order for the SD-10Bs will be
fulfilled before PLAAF. Previous
models will be upgraded to the new
SD-10B standard. [Author’s note: this
may suggest that PAF have provided
critical input for the SD-10Bs]
6. PAF will standardize to this
SD-10Bs. First 50 will have PL-9Cs as
standard WVR missiles.
7. A new radar will possibly be used
in the Block II JF-17s and the first
block will be upgraded. These are
likely to be AESA radars with a swash-
plate, similar to the Gripen NG.
8. JF-17 radars are designed to be
fully multirole.
9. Various new guided munitions are
being tested in China. These include
SDBs (Small Diameter Bombs) ideal
for the light fighter class.
10. PAF’s second squadron of JF-17s
is almost ready and flight trials are
earmarked for early next year.
11. China is confirmed (yet again and
without any doubt whatsoever) to
buy the FC-1s. Consequently,
production is being expanded in
Pakistan’s production facilities,
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC),
to meet the demand. These facilities
are located in Kamra.
12. Close cooperation on the J-10B is
taking place. The level of cooperation
has been significantly expanded since
2009. The size of the cooperation is
described as literally a small city-like
facility to accommodate PAF and
Pakistani civilian engineers. Hannan
confirmed that civilian engineers from
PAC are also part of the cooperation
in China.
13. The J-10B will have Chinese radar
and western subsystems will allow it
to be integrated with Erieye and
Chinese AWACS. This is not an
assumption and Eagle Hannan, who is
a telecom engineer himself, confirms
that this is not a technical problem
and reconfirms from PAF. There is no
problem as long as the protocol
messages and handshake procedures
are known. He found out that PAF
has a solution in terms of the
middleware.
14. The middleware will not only be
via a C4I but also direct
communication middleware. Some of
these are being developed in-house
and some are being imported.
15. Whether JF-17s can data link with
Erieye has not been confirmed due to
diplomatic/political reasons.
However, Hannan notes that from his
discussions, it is implicitly obvious
that they definitely can.
16. IFR (In-Flight Refueling) will be
installed in later batches. These will
be fixed IFRs and not retractable.
[Author’s note: radar signature and
aerodynamics penalty paid for
simplicity of construction, cost and
maintenance]. The JF-17s were
designed from the ground-up to have
IFRs installed.
17. Next block of JF-17s will have
IRST (Infra-Red Search & Track)
similar to those installed on the
J-10B.
18. Pakistani ALCM Raad and H2/H4
ASM will be integrated and was a
major reason why Pakistan has
chosen to go with Chinese radars for
Block 2 JF-17s.
19. Advanced composites have been
tested for use on the Block 2 JF-17s.
Present JF-17s also use some
composites. J-10B/FC-20 is designed
from inception from new advanced
composites. FC-20s in PAF service
will form the top tier in the PAF
(above the F-16 Block 52+).
20. PAF denied any collaboration in
Chinese 5th generation fighter
program as this is a capability they
are not familiar with. PAF senior
officials stated that:
We cannot help develop a capability
we don’t know. Like we don’t know
what kind of sensor suite is in F-22
other than what we find from open-
source. Such capability/requirement
generation is not Air Force job but
such technology information is
brought in by other means [Hannan
notes: espionage or intelligence I
think this is what he meant]. We all
know F-22 is stealth but what else it
can do is what we don’t know. JF-17s
are developed because we knew
what we wanted from a 4th
generation fighter as we already had
an experience with capability, either
by existing systems or by our
collaboration with other air forces.
Even US Air force only comes to know
new capabilities when it’s presented
to it. Chinese on the other hand,
have the means to bring such
information and develop on such
information and PAF does not. We'll
see what they bring up.
TR Defence Forum • View topic - JF-17 Information and Developments Thread

well what about composites and AESA mentioned above??:unsure:
 
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Hi Mr. Haseeb, I remember reading somewhere the F-7PG radar was either 55KM or 80KM. Either way, its range is less than that of the range of an SD-10 missile. In addition, Pakistan would have to modify source code and then integrate and rewire the F-7PG to carry a BVR missile. I doubt it would be worth the cost and resources.

they are not but mirages rose yes.
 
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From PakDef


Interview: Air Commodore Khalid Mehmood, Deputy Chief Project Director, JF-17 Programme, Pakistan Air Force

Tomislav Mesaric, Zagreb

In Pakistan the JF-17 combat aircraft programme, conducted as a joint venture with China, is a matter of national pride, with the aircraft on track to become the backbone of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) for decades to come.

"Two years ago we had only one JF-17 Squadron with 20 aircraft, but now we have two," said Air Commodore Khalid Mehmood, who was posted to become the programme's deputy director when the aircraft was still on the drawing board.

"Both squadrons are completely operational, while one of the two squadrons has two roles: conversion and operational training. We are about to raise the third squadron, but we still haven't decided which one that will be," said Air Cdre Khalid. "Around 40 JF-17s are flying at the moment, with the last few from Block I in the final stages of assembly.

"Production started with a small batch of aircraft we used for maturity of the production processes and for the assessment of operational capability and fine tuning of the aircraft," he said. "Based on that and the capability enhancements we introduced in the Block I, we will start with production of Block II. The difference will mostly be in capabilities, production technologies, avionics and some maintenance facilitation for the ground crew.

"As far as manufacturing tempo is concerned," noted the air commodore, "we are matching the retirement tempo of the air force's older types, regulating the induction of JF-17s according to the air force's demands."

Regarding the JF-17's operational capabilities, IHS Jane's understands that the PAF has the necessary sources codes to integrate weapons onto the aircraft. Air Cdre Khalid confirmed that the PAF has the capability for weapons integration, stating: "We can buy a weapon on the free market and integrate it on the JF-17 on our own and in-country. We have a team of flight test engineers and pilots that form the flight test group as a separate unit."

When the JF-17 first entered service it only flew with PL-5EII within-visual-range air-to-air missiles (AAMs) and fuel tanks, but the aircraft is now flying with SD-10 beyond-visual-range AAMs, C-802A anti-ship missiles, an electronic warfare pod and several types of general-purpose and precision-guided bombs. "We are using a combination of weapons of different origins," the air commodore noted.

When it comes to the maintenance the PAF has operational (O), intermediate (I) and depot (D) levels, just like in the West. "Since the JF-17 is a new aircraft we haven't performed any D-level maintenance on it yet, but we are in a process of establishing a component D-level capability," he said.

Regarding the JF-17's RD-93 powerplant, Air Cdre Khalid vouched for it being a very robust engine. "We have flown it for 7,000 hours without a problem," he said.

While the Chinese are reportedly working on a replacement powerplant for the JF-17, the PAF seems happy that solid agreements are in place between the Chinese and original Russian designers of the RD-93 to guarantee the supply of enough engines for its needs.

At the moment the JF-17 is already qualified for quick-reaction alert duty. "We have IFF on board, so we can go straight up and shoot at the enemy," said Air Cdre Khalid. In standard configuration the JF-17 carries two PL-5EII missiles, two SD-10 missiles and two or three fuel tanks. "The aircraft could have the capability to carry four SD-10 missiles," he noted, "but we decided to pursue the present configuration. The digital weapon interface is on all hard points, which gives us a lot of flexibility for weapons carriage."


So far the JF-17 has not seen real combat, but the type has participated in a number of exercises. "We have very good experience in dissimilar combat against different types of aircraft in multi-bogey environments," said the air commodore.

During air combat manoeuvres with the People's Liberation Army Air Force, for example, PAF JF-17s were pitched against Chinese Su-27s in a number of scenarios and reportedly achieved favourable results.

With regard to flight training, Air Cdre Khalid said the JF-17 is "very easy to fly - even easier than the F-16 - so pilot training is not heavily dependent upon a two-seat version. We designed it with the concept that we will have a good simulator. The Chinese have extensive experience with simulators, so we decided to go with them. However, if some customer wants the two-seat version, plans for production are at a very advanced stage.

"For international sales we have joint sales and marketing with our Chinese friends. It doesn't necessarily mean we all have to sit together on every meeting, but the Chinese side will always know what we are negotiating and we will always know what they are negotiating," noted the air commodore, adding that he saw co-operation on the programme between the two countries as being "exemplary".

"The first thing the new customer has to do is to decide which configuration of the aircraft they want," said Air Cdre Khalid. "The JF-17 is produced in Pakistan Aeronautical Complex in Kamra, so we can provide everything from manufacturing to documentation and even help with the induction of the aircraft into operational service."
 
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Regarding the JF-17's RD-93 powerplant, Air Cdre Khalid vouched for it being a very robust engine. "We have flown it for 7,000 hours without a problem," he said.

so the life of rd-93 is more than basic rd-33 models(4000h)..
 
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The most important thing said in the article is that PAF has all the source codes and can intehrate any type of weapon bought off the shelf.
And all hard points have digital interface.
That means Raad cruise missile may already have been integrated.
 
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It's imperative that Saudi gets it hand on that amazing project. The SNG is interested in non western stuff. We should go for it ,but keep the Pak flag and might add ours too.

Long live Pak :3

But bro, you guys are already flying better equipment ! :what:

This was supposed to accrue two benefits to us :

(i) Get the technical know-how of constructing a state-of-the-art platform from scratch !

(ii) Replace our aging fleet of F7s (Mig 21s) & Mirages with the aforementioned platform that could provide reasonably good value addition to our fleet to maintain minimum credible deterrence & protect us from the backlash of sanctions crippling our Airforce !

Shouldn't you guys be better off by engaging in a Joint-Venture of your own ? Perhaps a Saudi-Pak-Sino JV for a 5th Generation platform ?
 
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But bro, you guys are already flying better equipment ! :what:

This was supposed to accrue two benefits to us :

(i) Get the technical know-how of constructing a state-of-the-art platform from scratch !

(ii) Replace our aging fleet of F7s (Mig 21s) & Mirages with the aforementioned platform that could provide reasonably good value addition to our fleet to maintain minimum credible deterrence & protect us from the backlash of sanctions crippling our Airforce !

Shouldn't you guys be better off by engaging in a Joint-Venture of your own ? Perhaps a Saudi-Pak-Sino JV for a 5th Generation platform ?

Saudia has joint ventures with Selex galeleo and Is a major partner in Eurofighter typhoon program...
 
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But bro, you guys are already flying better equipment ! :what:

This was supposed to accrue two benefits to us :

(i) Get the technical know-how of constructing a state-of-the-art platform from scratch !

(ii) Replace our aging fleet of F7s (Mig 21s) & Mirages with the aforementioned platform that could provide reasonably good value addition to our fleet to maintain minimum credible deterrence & protect us from the backlash of sanctions crippling our Airforce !

Shouldn't you guys be better off by engaging in a Joint-Venture of your own ? Perhaps a Saudi-Pak-Sino JV for a 5th Generation platform ?

I agree. PAF gained a lot of experience over the last few years. This project is ,in my opinion, one of the greatest project of our modern history. Now we pretty much got the hang of it, so it would take a few more years to produce a rather highly sophisticated version of the Thunder jet.

Saudia has joint ventures with Selex galeleo and Is a major partner in Eurofighter typhoon program...

That's 4 the RSAF. I was referring to the SNG. The latter is planning to build an Air Force of its own right now and the chief commander is n't pro western that much ,so I guess they might go for JV with PAF.
 
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@Yzd Khalifa

Any military partnership between us will go a long way.

A possibility is there.
But looking at the fact that even British ex prime minister Gordon Brown literally begged saudis for money and western arms manufacturers going bust and in critical need of money...saudia with their money can buy off many existing and well reputed arms manufacturers ....
The trcky bit will be how much TOT saudia can get from them.

Anyway JF-17 can still be useful as a low cost everyday use patrol aircraft.
 
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