JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[abaseen99]

MOSCOW (BNS): Russia is finalising a deal to sell additional RD-93 engines to China which will power the FC-1 Fierce Dragon fighter aircraft.

Russia’s state arms exporter Rosoboronexport is preparing the contract to sell a total of 100 RD-93 aircraft engines for the FC-1, also called JF-17 Thunder, being jointly developed by China and Pakistan.

“We are holding new talks with the China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC) on another option for additional 100 RD-93 engines,” Deputy General Director of Rosoboronexport, Alexander Mikheyev, was quoted as saying by RIA Novosti during the ongoing Airshow China 2010 being held in Zhuhai.

“We hope that this contract will be signed,” Mikheyev added.

China had inked a deal worth $238 million with Russia in 2005 to get 100 RD-93 engines which have already been supplied to it.

The country was also planning to buy up to 1,000 modernised versions of the engine for over $3 billion.

The RD-93 engines will power the China-Pak joint fighter aircraft.

 

[Dil Pakistan]

new engine is tested on Jf-17..means the jf-17 is redesigned to accomodate the ws-13A.and composite materials are tested on jf-17 as per eagle hannan.AESA radar is still unknown..development of block II is already started and expect it will be readdy by the time we induct the first 50..means 2012 midd

For my knowledge, can anyone please explain what is meant by "composite materials" ? Thank you in advance.

 

[Mani2020]

For my knowledge, can anyone please explain what is meant by "composite materials" ? Thank you in advance.

Composite materials are used to reduce the RCS of a fighter aircraft and they are also helpful in reducing the weight

 

[hataf]

Composite material - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

READ IT

 

[monitor]

posting from pakdef forum.
EagleHannan
According to Airforce people, we can not invest on an Engine we can not upgrade within its physical dimentions. WS series engine is so far not ready and I believe has some kind of set backs due to which some RD93+ like RD33MK version displayed as model in Zhuhai airshow might be the upgrade. The PAF person said, the time for WS engine incorporation has come and gone on JF-17s. We are happy with current Engine. May be Chinese mature the Engine in a couple of years but by then we'll be operating the russian Engine in numbers. The joint license manufacturing of RD93 did not materialize with China and Russia because Chinese are very much concerned with the JD10s engine. It is also expected to be russian AL-31FN for coming years.
I also asked about the thrust to weight ratio. Instead i asked, it's JF-17 under powered ? The answer was it is certainly not the case, thrust to weight ratios is a general ratio which does not takes into account, the aircraft's design. JF-17s do not bleed energies as much as Delta platforms do, or for that matter J-10s and Mirrages. J-10 needs much higher thrust to maintain a turn at given altitude and recover from a near still situation while JF-17s can manage such situations in the available thrust easily so in field, JF-17s not just match turn rates but are also economical. While more thrust is handy in loadouts, JF-17s fare well with any compition in all situations. Current engine is very responsive and thats another reason why the current thrust to weight ratios are excellent.

I used to think of Weight to Thrust ratio as literal terms without paying attention to design. I am very thankful to a PAF engineer who made me understand the concept in a very nice way. Here is my version of it.
Basicaly, its like you turn hard and climb, aircarft is loosing energy. Lets say you have a 25000lbs thrust in hand but the engine is not very responsive. Now while you are engaging AB or setting it to higher thrust, the low response engine is slowly changing gears for settling at your thrust rating, you have lost enough energy to now go a few steps higher thrust after the engine settles to compesative speed and maintain turn. This all happens in a sec or two but your higher thrust Engine's response time actually made you apply more thrust each time. This is called energy Bleed to engine Response ratio.
Now if you have a 18300lbs thrust engine with quicker response, you turn and climb along with instant setting of higher thrust and engine responds near instantly (no engine responds instantly) then before your rate of climb could decline or your speed drop enough to compensate with a little higher setting, you have completed the turn or are sustaining the turn energy bleed with much less hectic thrust changes to throttle and aircraft is climbing as desired.
2 things come to play. Pilot experience with energies and given aircraft's energy bleeds ratio to engine response and aircrafts own aerodynamics.
RD-93 in service with PAF are impressive according to pilots and engineers and while they would welcome a new within same dimention upgrade, I doubt they'll go for Chinese Engine. May be FC1 could have a Chinese Engine. To me its logical, while RD93 can be upgraded to RD33MK or some RD93MK, PAF MAY BE can not bring an all new Engine and return the RD93 engine to russia or scrap the earlier engines. It all comes down to spending power, which we do not have.
Even though PAF personal did not say they will not bring in WS engine but the logic i think speaks for itself.

The hard points might not be increased as I recall asking. INstead JF-17s are using dual launching rails for AAMs and AGMs. When i asked if we might see more hard points in any version, answer was JF-17s with its current hard points is optamised with wing area and flight performance so there is a possibility to add chin mounted HPs for PODs and electronics but not for any other purpose.

IMHO if PAF decides to add more hard points, it might needs to increase wing area. Lifting LERX have taken up a lot of space on wings if you notice so that version with enlarge wings might need a new engine to compensate drag and that means bigger fuselage, means NOT JF-17s. I doubt PAF will go with such complexity.

 

[Mani2020]

@monitor

already posted

 

[salman77]

MOSCOW (BNS): Russia is finalising a deal to sell additional RD-93 engines to China which will power the FC-1 Fierce Dragon fighter aircraft.

Russia’s state arms exporter Rosoboronexport is preparing the contract to sell a total of 100 RD-93 aircraft engines for the FC-1, also called JF-17 Thunder, being jointly developed by China and Pakistan.

“We are holding new talks with the China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation (CATIC) on another option for additional 100 RD-93 engines,” Deputy General Director of Rosoboronexport, Alexander Mikheyev, was quoted as saying by RIA Novosti during the ongoing Airshow China 2010 being held in Zhuhai.

“We hope that this contract will be signed,” Mikheyev added.

China had inked a deal worth $238 million with Russia in 2005 to get 100 RD-93 engines which have already been supplied to it.

The country was also planning to buy up to 1,000 modernised versions of the engine for over $3 billion.

The RD-93 engines will power the China-Pak joint fighter aircraft.

Can someone elaborate on the bolded part.

 

[Mani2020]

1000 engines from Russia of new variant of original RD-93 also known as RD-33MK or RD-93 MK these 1000 engines will serve in PAF aircrafts as well as chinese fc-1 and also in export variant of jf-17's as it is reported that many countries are interested to buy jf-17.Hope so its been clear now

 

[farhan_9909]

Rd-33MK?

which has 7% more thrust and no smoke,,thast cool

it means 86+7=93Kn thrust(+7%)

 

[Mani2020]

Rd-33MK?

which has 7% more thrust and no smoke,,thast cool

it means 86+7=93Kn thrust(+7%)

also it may rather most probably will also have TVC

 

[monitor]

some chilling information regarding paf i just get from pakdef. i could not restrain myself from posting in pdf. sorry if already posted.
a summary of Eagle Hannan's posts from Pakdef.

Hannan describes the aerobatics display of the JF-17 as brilliant. The JF-17 flew twice every day of the air show. He notes that the weather conditions were very bad and hard to take videos in. He said that the J-10s did not perform particularly well. Hannan comments that in 14 minutes of display there was a single performance of 360 and three half-hearted loops. He observes that the rest of the displays by the J-10 were formation flights. He notes that one of the Sherdil pilots comments about the J-10 pilots in Punjabi that the old men of China cannot fly their own planes.

In comparison, the JF-17s did much better. Hannan describes the Chinese crowd as going ~{!0~}wild~{!1~} with the Thunder~{!/~}s repeated tight turns, without a single one off-target from the venue.

In his conversations with the PAF, he has found out the following:

1. JF-17s will not have CFTs (Conformal Fuel Tanks).

2. The present batch of JF-17s has certain non-Chinese subsystems.

3. Air to Air missile tests for both WVR and BVR are complete.

4. PAF is impressed with the performance of SD-10s and confirms that the missile is comparable to the AMRAAM-Cs.

5. An improved SD-10s, designated here as SD-10Bs with improved range, seeker, new motor and better seeker has been tested in China on the FC-1. These missiles are marginally lighter than the first generation and are in the same standard as the best Western BVR AAMs.

The weight of the SD-10Bs still remains slightly greater than the AMRAAM Cs but this is not an issue anymore because the performance is equal or superior. The missiles displayed in Zhuhai were not the new generation SD-10Bs but the earlier model.

PAF order for the SD-10Bs will be fulfilled before PLAAF. Previous models will be upgraded to the new SD-10B standard. [Author~{!/~}s note: this may suggest that PAF have provided critical input for the SD-10Bs]

6. PAF will standardize to this SD-10Bs. First 50 will have PL-9Cs as standard WVR missiles.

7. A new radar will possibly be used in the Block II JF-17s and the first block will be upgraded. These are likely to be AESA radars with a swash-plate, similar to the Gripen NG.

8. JF-17 radars are designed to be fully multirole.

9. Various new guided munitions are being tested in China. These include SDBs (Small Diameter Bombs) ideal for the light fighter class.

10. PAF~{!/~}s second squadron of JF-17s is almost ready and flight trials are earmarked for early next year.

11. China is confirmed (yet again and without any doubt whatsoever) to buy the FC-1s. Consequently, production is being expanded in Pakistan~{!/~}s production facilities, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC), to meet the demand. These facilities are located in Kamra.

12. Close cooperation on the J-10B is taking place. The level of cooperation has been significantly expanded since 2009. The size of the cooperation is described as literally a small city-like facility to accommodate PAF and Pakistani civilian engineers. Hannan confirmed that civilian engineers from PAC are also part of the cooperation in China.

13. The J-10B will have Chinese radar and western subsystems will allow it to be integrated with Erieye and Chinese AWACS. This is not an assumption and Eagle Hannan, who is a telecom engineer himself, confirms that this is not a technical problem and reconfirms from PAF. There is no problem as long as the protocol messages and handshake procedures are known. He found out that PAF has a solution in terms of the middleware.

14. The middleware will not only be via a C4I but also direct communication middleware. Some of these are being developed in-house and some are being imported.

15. Whether JF-17s can data link with Erieye has not been confirmed due to diplomatic/political reasons. However, Hannan notes that from his discussions, it is implicitly obvious that they definitely can.


16. IFR (In-Flight Refueling) will be installed in later batches. These will be fixed IFRs and not retractable. [Author~{!/~}s note: radar signature and aerodynamics penalty paid for simplicity of construction, cost and maintenance]. The JF-17s were designed from the ground-up to have IFRs installed.

17. Next block of JF-17s will have IRST (Infra-Red Search & Track) similar to those installed on the J-10B.

18. Pakistani ALCM Raad and H2/H4 ASM will be integrated and was a major reason why Pakistan has chosen to go with Chinese radars for Block 2 JF-17s.

19. Advanced composites have been tested for use on the Block 2 JF-17s. Present JF-17s also use some composites. J-10B/FC-20 is designed from inception from new advanced composites. FC-20s in PAF service will form the top tier in the PAF (above the F-16 Block 52+).

20. PAF denied any collaboration in Chinese 5th generation fighter program as this is a capability they are not familiar with. PAF senior officials stated that

 

[Kompromat]

posted already.

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

The RD-33MK "Morskaya Osa" (Russian: Морская Оса: "Sea Wasp") is the latest model developed in 2001. It is intended to power the MiG-29K and MiG-29KUB shipborne fighters, however it has also been adopted for the MiG-35. The RD-33MK develops 7% higher thrust, is digitally controlled FADEC and smokeless unlike earlier RD-33 engines, has increased afterburner thrust to 9,000kgf and dry weight 1145 kg compared to the baseline model through modern materials used on the cooled blades, although it retains the same length and maximum diameter. Incorporated is an infrared and optical signature visibility reduction systems. Service life has been increased to 4,000 hours. The RD-33MK ensures shipborne fighters unassisted take-off capability, retain performance in hot climate environment and, naturally, a boost in combat efficiency for MiG-29 fighter latest variant.

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

 

[gowthamraj]

^ our latest mig 29's uses the same engine only