JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[DARKY]

We are slowly agreeing = GOOD.

We have a Russian executive telling the press that “it does not make sense to refuse either China or Pakistan technologies they can get elsewhere.” If the RD-93 was not made available, someone else engine was, or the WS-13 you have been given higher urgency.

There's the main problem... the "someone else engine"... I am sure PAF would jump on the some one else engine... other than the new Chinese and the poor Russian(Not that Russian don't make good engine but the performance of Klimov powerplant has not been as good.)

May be in future when their production lines for RD-33 close they would transfer the tech. to China/Pakistan... however since the Navy there is opting Mig29K and those 300 Mig29 being upgraded to SMT standards such a thing is highly unlikely in near future... Or there can be dramatic change in Pakistan and Russia relationship... making it happen or otherwise.

It could send the “wrong message” but that is exactly what the Chinese are doing. China have been saying they want to offer customers options and choices. See the 3 engines available and on offer for the K-8. The radar choices and missile options on the F-7s. The two radars on offer for the FC-1. Even their APC and tanks are coming with German and Russian engines.

Chinese have been doing it as intermediate measure.
This has also affected the business as for their user's dependence on a 3rd Party for the supply of engines.

Running your engine on afterburner reduces life, but air forces do it when necessary. Cost/Benefit analysis. I agree it will reduce life, but the PAF, if over-clocking makes the JF-17 win battles, then they will over-clock it. It will fight and kill the enemy and come to back to base with a ruined engine but it has not only survived, but would have successfully defended the country. Engine life or spares availability becomes secondary. What engine life is there to conserve when you are a few seconds away from someone putting a missile into your exhaust?

Its a two edge sword... being on extreme... such high level of thrust would not only damage the engine.. but eat up fuel much quickly... and such flight regime using extreme AB mode won't last long... may be 5 minutes... besides damaging the engine, increase servicing time after each sortie.. decrease the sortie rate..etc..etc..

You can do this If you are inducting JF-17 as an interceptor... and not a combat plane.

Please check SIPRI data: SD-10 missiles and WMD-7 EO pods were delivered to the PAF. By the end of 2010, 25 x SD-10 and 22 x WMD-7s had been delivered. Please note that each JFT is coming with 4 x SD-10 and a WMD-7 of its own. i.e. they are not sharing. Note that guided weaponry (LS-6 and C-802) have been delivered too for the JF-17.

However no PAF JF-17 has been seen with them till now... even If they are hiding them Pakistan is a small country and 2 years a long time to hide a simple thing such as a BVR missile or a targeting pod.. They weren't seen even on recent bombing trials conducted by PAF.

JF-17 is a combat plane which needs sustained thrust and not sudden AB boost(which would hardly last a few minutes guzzling all the fuel) to intercept an incoming cruise missile or run away from a BVR missile.

Hope this clarifies.

 

[TAC]

People realy need to stop worrying about the JF-17's RD93 engine. The JF-17 was designed with this engine in mind - it was the first choice, not the second or third choice. It's thrust and performance is therefore just fine for the platform as you can see from airshow performances, comments from PAF officials and from independant observers as well as rapid progress of the project. Sure China is developing its own alternative powerplant but PAF is happy to sit back and wait for it to mature - no rush.

All the talk of insufficent thrust, reliance on third party, 'delay' because it has to go to China first bla bla bla --- just comes across as very sour grapes because India tried its best and still failed to stop Russia supplying this powerplant for the JF-17. Its amusing -- having seen Indian members argue for years that Russia would never allow supply of their powerplant to Pakistan -- now change tact to saying -- 'so what if they are supplying it - its rubbish anyway.'

 

[MastanKhan]

However no PAF JF-17 has been seen with them till now... even If they are hiding them Pakistan is a small country and 2 years a long time to hide a simple thing such as a BVR missile or a targeting pod.. They weren't seen even on recent bombing trials conducted by PAF.

JF-17 is a combat plane which needs sustained thrust and not sudden AB boost(which would hardly last a few minutes guzzling all the fuel) to intercept an incoming cruise missile or run away from a BVR missile.

Hope this clarifies.

Hi,

I haven't seen the pictures of a BLK52 with aim120 in paf colors either---did I miss it---. All the aim120 have been delivered as well as the blk52's----. The mlu's are also coming back---but no display of aim120--can someone correct me please.

There have been a lots of great aircraft that were "under powered"---the tops being F14---Phantom---. This is not the age of being under powered or over powered---this age will be determined by the type of electronics that you can carry and manage on your own plus the electronic support that you can get and rely on while in flight---.

This is also the age where what your missile can do and its 90% kill ratio range is more important than the thrust to weight ratio of the engine to the aircraft.

 

[[--Leo--]]

PAF and PA does not deploy or procure systems for the benefit of kids lurking on military forums. They have their own schedule based on their threat perception and needs

i think they are off the schedule

 

[Bossman]

i think they are off the schedule

Did they share the schedule with you? Delivery JF17 Blk2 CBU kits has started. Pictures already posted on the net. You will see the built up plane at IDEAs 2012. FC20 is not expected until 2014/15. There has been no indication about public roll out date for the of Barraq UAV.

 

[Manticore]

Any senior member interested in helping out in creating a pakistan weapons index for pdf can contact me and I will ask webby to give these members access to the researchers forum-- this researchers tag has been revoked for the time being -- star members tag will be up&running after some days and will be given to quality posters alonge access to the seniors cafe-- webby has outlined its requirements in that section

 

[DARKY]

Hi,

I haven't seen the pictures of a BLK52 with aim120 in paf colors either---did I miss it---. All the aim120 have been delivered as well as the blk52's----. The mlu's are also coming back---but no display of aim120--can someone correct me please.

It was posted on this forum... and I am sure a few(ones in Pakistan) would've seen it live.

There have been a lots of great aircraft that were "under powered"---the tops being F14---Phantom---. This is not the age of being under powered or over powered---this age will be determined by the type of electronics that you can carry and manage on your own plus the electronic support that you can get and rely on while in flight---.

This is also the age where what your missile can do and its 90% kill ratio range is more important than the thrust to weight ratio of the engine to the aircraft.

Certainly you missed it here... I didn't want to further go on this... however this age has brought engines which can make planes super cruise.
Engine power also helps in using more powerful electronics and that too more in number.
Even your 90% kill ratio missiles would have longer legs if the engine is more powerful.

However I never said that JF-17 thrust values of T/W ratio is insufficient what I had pointed out was the poor life and servicing issues when someone started exploring possibilities of tuning the engine to produce more thrust in AB mode... at the cost of even poorer life.

JF-17 is doing good with what it has... engine serviceability aside... there's no need to increase the AB thrust values... may be when we see JF-17 in air with full load the need might arise.. however that has not happened yet... AFAIK.. correct me on that.

 

[Tempest II]

What is the take off speed of the Thunder?

 

[Pak47]

 

[REHAN NIAZI FALCON]

hope that block 2 will be highly advanced version of jf-17 ,
their delivery is late , but we need to be optimistic about it

 

[mylovepakistan]

hope that block 2 will be highly advanced version of jf-17 ,
their delivery is late , but we need to be optimistic about it

aaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.......man please!!!!!!!

 

[araz]

hope that block 2 will be highly advanced version of jf-17 ,
their delivery is late , but we need to be optimistic about it

Falcon Bhai Zameen pe Aa Ja oo. Bhai if you look at the longstanding thread you will find that the proposed changes in block 2 have been highlighted already from multiple sources. These would be minor and changes would be brought in blocks.
Araz

 

[Dil Pakistan]

Falcon Bhai Zameen pe Aa Ja oo. Bhai if you look at the longstanding thread you will find that the proposed changes in block 2 have been highlighted already from multiple sources. These would be minor and changes would be brought in blocks.
Araz

But! Do you really believe PAF is so naive that they will announce and admit every thing out in the open and in public ? I really doubt it !!

 

[araz]

But! Do you really believe PAF is so naive that they will announce and admit every thing out in the open and in public ? I really doubt it !!

All has gone quiet on the JFT and PAF front. No source is coming out with anything. The rumour mill has ground to a halt. I think it is to keep IAF guessing. As towhether they would announce anything, they will announce only that which serves their purposes an warns the adversary to keep its hands to itself.
Araz

 

[VCheng]

All has gone quiet on the JFT and PAF front. No source is coming out with anything. The rumour mill has ground to a halt. I think it is to keep IAF guessing. As towhether they would announce anything, they will announce only that which serves their purposes an warns the adversary to keep its hands to itself.
Araz

The induction of a major new platform such as the JF-17 is not a simple process, let alone further planned upgrades. I think more news will be forthcoming, but at a much slower pace than what people would like to see out of their curiosity.