JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Najam Khan]

I think its a good decision to delay 3rd operational squadron of JF-17. PAF wanted speedy replacement of A-5/F-7/Mirages, but to meet that requirement some other factors were needed as well. X number of JF-17 service hours, X number of pilots and engineers converted onto JF-17, X number of "combat ready pilots" were some factors to be addressed before making JF-17 squadron(s) operational.

Whats the point in making 3-4 squadrons of 12-14 aircraft, with a very small number of combat ready pilots in them? JF-17 is still very new to PAF, and not much senior pilots have been produced. PAF still need more experienced pilots which would take time. Once a required strength of pilots is achieved then the process of Mirage/F-7 replacement will start again.

 

[araz]

The induction of a major new platform such as the JF-17 is not a simple process, let alone further planned upgrades. I think more news will be forthcoming, but at a much slower pace than what people would like to see out of their curiosity.

Their has been an intentional black out on news from PAF high ups. Even people who used to get news about ongoing developments are not passing on any news onwards. There may be a tactical reason to it.Either ways things have gone quiet. PAF from now on will only release info on as required basis. Or so it seems
Araz

PS:
On a totally unrelated issue why the change in Avatar and what is its significance? Are you interested in bikes?
Araz

 

[VCheng]

Their has been an intentional black out on news from PAF high ups. Even people who used to get news about ongoing developments are not passing on any news onwards. There may be a tactical reason to it.Either ways things have gone quiet. PAF from now on will only release info on as required basis. Or so it seems
Araz

PS:
On a totally unrelated issue why the change in Avatar and what is its significance? Are you interested in bikes?
Araz

I can understand the reasons for the news blackout and agree with them.

PS: I just bought the Ninja, hence the avatar.

Here she is:


Kawasaki Ninja 1000-7269 by vcheng552000, on Flickr

 

[araz]

They say that there's silence before the storm hits.....this may be it. I won't be surprised if they came back with a further modified version of JFT with some new stuff to semi-counter mmrca (proactive planning). This silence doesn't make sense as there is nothing in B II that would either surprise India or change the whole air force picture. So may be new stuff is being added and that's taking time. That's the most logical explanation for this. Otherwise the production should move on to BII by now with 4th squadron on its way I'd imagine

Aurangzaib
It is a case of letting the cat out of the bag. PAFs philosophy has always been a very proactive one and with the least possible expense as we have never had the luxury of spare cash since our independance(barring very short periods of time). It will always counter the IAF within its own financial limitations but now the financial disparity is such that if we show newer capabilities our neighbour will go out and procure more and more weapons which will make life very difficult for us, especially since the leanings of the world are towards India in any case nowadays. Therefore there is a need for silence while actively pursuing our goals.One of the luxuries tha we never had before is the ability in layman's terms of tinkering about with the plane. This is in my view the biggest advantage that PAF has gained with JFT that would not have been available with many other planes.
Araz

I can understand the reasons for the news blackout and agree with them.

PS: I just bought the Ninja, hence the avatar.

Here she is:


Kawasaki Ninja 1000-7269 by vcheng552000, on Flickr

I thought I had heard the mutterings somewhere. Congratulations !! But do be careful!!
Regards
Araz

 

[MastanKhan]

I can understand the reasons for the news blackout and agree with them.

PS: I just bought the Ninja, hence the avatar.

Here she is:


Kawasaki Ninja 1000-7269 by vcheng552000, on Flickr

Hi,

Nice ride------but on a personal note----do you have kids---. If no---go enjoy it---but if yes----it is not worth it---.

 

[alimobin memon]

Our armed force is quite secretive But during last 2-3 years a major info has been leaked and discussed alot on forums like this which has caused concerns over all sectors of armed forces I think they are hiding now to prevent from attacks like kamra and mehran base ... Most of the guys might not admit here but the truth is even an army guy usually does not know the whole capabilities of Pakistan Airforce they usually if come to know something is through internet or so and that internet info is mostly estimated.

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

I can understand the reasons for the news blackout and agree with them.

PS: I just bought the Ninja, hence the avatar.

Here she is:


Kawasaki Ninja 1000-7269 by vcheng552000, on Flickr

I thought i am reading in JFT Thread and its new version of the thunder (Block 2) ....

 

[Cy-27]

Here's my unsolicited quasi-professional (pilot) opinion on the JF: Great bird. And its capabilities have only been scratched. Look at the earlier blocks of F-16, it is a completely different bird from the current block 60, with latest models possessing capabilities that a legacy F-16 pilot could only dream of. Same will happen to the Thunder.
No, it's not an MKI, Typhoon or Rafale, but it wasn't designed to be.
I look forward to seeing this bird mature over the next decade, and offer a heart-felt congratulations to PAF for replacing its museum-quality older aircraft.


Final note: I keep seeing a lot of admiring references to TVC. For the record - TVC is very mixed blessing. It is useless in BVR, and has limitations in short-range engagements as well. (as IAF MKI pilots found out during their 2008 Red Flag deployment against F-15C's and F-16C Block 50's.)
Like I said, just my unsolicited opinion....

 

[Cy-27]

To those who propose replacing an order of 250 JF-17s with a smaller quantity of euro-canards: given Pakistan's defense-oriented posture, perhaps your ACM tactics are far superior to what I've been taught, but how does one stop an onslaught of enemy aircraft penetrating Pakistan's airspace in multiple locations with multiple waves with several dozen so-called 'advanced aircraft'?
Furthermore, if such an attack were to occur, one can be reasonably sure of immediate sanctions. So I suppose what I am really looking for is an explanation as to how a small quantity of aircraft which operate only at the manufacturing country's nod of approval better than a larger quantity of aircraft which can be developed and built in-country.

 

[Luftwaffe]

but how does one stop an onslaught of enemy aircraft penetrating Pakistan's airspace in multiple locations with multiple waves with several dozen so-called 'advanced aircraft'?

Pakistan has started investing in multiple SAMs Systems. This is partially also a solution to stop airspace violations or airspace deliberate penetration during Conflicts-War.

Ultimate goal of PAF is to bring JF-17 on par with capabilities of F-16 block 52+ I think by 2016+ JF-17 would be in better position against other 4-4.5 Gen aircrafts with large inventory ingeniously developed in house will prove better results and naturally a force multiplier in case of war which can be manufactured instead of purchasing procuring from countries potentially sanction PAF.

 

[Cy-27]

Luftwaffe, I agree that this is the only rational way to proceed for PAF. My question was posed to those in this forum who advocate a purchase of a smaller number of 'more advanced' machinery.

 

[SQ8]

Luftwaffe, I agree that this is the only rational way to proceed for PAF. My question was posed to those in this forum who advocate a purchase of a smaller number of 'more advanced' machinery.

Unfortunately.. The idea of the JF-17 is yet to dawn upon most.
The aircraft was designed from the outset with cost-effectiveness in mind...
i.e Pack in the most, with the least cost without compromising on quality.. to get as many as possible.

Current orders stand at a 150 JF-17s.. Along with the 80 or so odd F-16's.. and a J-10 variant numbering 60 or so in the future to being the total fleet to 330 combat Acft(with 50 F-7PG's)

 

[VCheng]

.............
The aircraft was designed from the outset with cost-effectiveness in mind...
i.e Pack in the most, with the least cost without compromising on quality.. to get as many as possible............

Actually, ALL frontline military aircraft are designed with those goals in mind. ALL of them.

This idea that you mentioned dawned a long time ago.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Luftwaffe, I agree that this is the only rational way to proceed for PAF. My question was posed to those in this forum who advocate a purchase of a smaller number of 'more advanced' machinery.

AFAIK...certain smaller-limited number of Technologically superior machines have both positive psychological effects and strongly helps an Air Force during any conflict specially numerically-technologically superior air force not always will aircrafts like JF-17 counter and triumph over Rafale or planes alike. Like no 5/9/11 squadrons are equipped with F-16s.
Currently PAF most advanced machines are The F-16s in certain numbers...advocating for the advanced machines in number is due to the reasoning of better EW suite, better Radar, better weapons suite and payload and reliability etc; F-16/J-11B/BS I believe are at the high end advance machines considered to counter anything like Typhoons-Rafale-F-18E/F.

I think advocating for such aircrafts is always good, PAF has operated small numbers of F-16s in 80s-90s it was the only aircraft that gave PAF equal advantage when it comes to PAF its both political and senseless funds issues all other factors are ignored most of the time.

 

[Cy-27]

Even with its current radar and sensors I would not want to be facing a squadron of professionally flown, data-linked JF-17s armed with (big emphasis here!) proper BVR and ASRAAM missiles. Particularly with effective AEW cover.
I am not a psychologist, so I am not qualified to speak on the psychological effects of having a small number of Gen 4.5-5 fighters. In fact, you're probably correct, but this comes at expense of either significant additional funding, or cutbacks to the planned purchase of Thunders.
My basic question remains the same: Ignoring all other factors already outlined, does a Typhoon/Gripen NG/Rafale armed with a mix of AIM-120Cs and AIM-9Xs justify its price differential over a similarly armed JF-17 in a defensive CAP scenario?
Don't misunderstand me, advanced sensor payloads and stealth are the future, and I think you will see more and more RCS- reducing features being added to all combat birds, including the JF-17.