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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

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Here are some features of PL5EII from CATIC

PL5E-Ⅱis an improved 3rd generation short-range IR air-to-air missile, which features good anti-jamming capability and all-aspect attack capability.

Dominance of PL-5EⅡ:
Good target detection performance
All-aspect attack
Anti-jamming capability
Helmet mounted sight (HMS) slaving
Sufficient overload capability

Dual-band multi-element IR seeker possesses a sound anti IR decoy capability;
Precise laser fuse provides a sound anti-interference capability;
Excellent maneuverability with a Max. overload up to 35 g;
HE fragmentation warhead provides a high kill efficiency;
Small size and light weight provide good carriage adaptability;
Lateral loading and launching on the wing-tip can be realized;
Fire-and-forget guarantees the high survivalability of the platform A/Cs.
 
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Here Domestic export-oriented PL-5EII fighting over US-made missile AIM-9L/M « Military of China, force comment. lots of details on the PL-5EII. Read like a computer translation, so difficult to understand but lots of good details. I am reading "less smoke" to be "smokeless".

PL-5EII: China’s “Sidewinder”

to the Chinese PL-5EII air missiles known as China’s “Sidewinder”, not only because it and the U.S. AIM-9L/M “Sidewinder” missiles looks very similar, but because it’s fighting performance more excellent than the other. It created two international advanced, a national initiative. It uses less smoke solution for missile propellant fumes caused by aircraft engine air parking key issues, reducing the transmit signal characteristics, these attractions are the world’s peers praised.

PL-5EII improved air to air missiles are the third generation of Chinese short-range air to air missiles, combat-type second paragraph, that is, PL-5 PL-5E series of modifications on the basis of a new variant. Its diameter is 127 mm, length 2890 mm, a wingspan of 6 Ding mm, weight 83 kg. Active duty with the U.S. AIM-9L/M diameter of 190 mm, length 2870 mm, wingspan 640 mm, weight 87 kg, compared with a small size, light weight and better adaptation of the advantages of carrier aircraft. PL-5EII the operational altitude of 0-22 kilometers, has covered all the operational altitude fighter, than the “Sidewinder” is also comparable. PL-5EII using two-color multi-detector, the onboard computer and laser fuses and other new technology, with excellent anti-interference ability , all the better to attack and detection capabilities. PL-5EII follows the PL-5 series canard rudder layout (AIM-9 series is the layout), pneumatic rudder for the double triangle, with a larger wingspan, increased rudder operating efficiency, improved missile maneuverability , so that the missile exceeded the maximum overload 40g, greater than the U.S. fleet of AIM-9UM overload (35g).

PL-5EII is that a new multi-infrared seeker, with a whole new combat capability to attack air missiles, but also better than the unit’s infrared seeker, anti-jamming capability, lead cited the first 3 degrees field of view, the biggest in the pre-launch tracking range is ± 40 degrees, the launch is ± 38 degrees, with good off-axis emission capacity, launch angle off-axis than the “Sidewinder” of ± 28. And France, “Magic,” a 2 ± 35 degrees, close to the MICA IR type of ± 45 degrees, the maximum tracking speed of 20 degrees/second, to track mobile targets substantially. PL-5EII missile warhead is the fragmentation type, the use of laser proximity fuze, and older models of the PL-5 infrared proximity fuze used than the fuse can adapt to the requirements of fighting, more precise control of burst point and difficult to interfere with, the last paragraph of the missile improved control, improved guidance accuracy. PL-5EII the maximum range of up to 20 km, the minimum range of less than 500 meters, better than or equal to one U.S. AIM 9L/M “Sidewinder” missile a maximum range of 17.7 km and 500-meter minimum range.

PL-5EII also has a variety of target firing mode. First, the aperture target/aperture means of transmission: In this mode seeker gyro-bit standard lock on the missile’s longitudinal axis, the target only in place scaler field of view in order to intercept the target. The pilot to maneuver the target maintained at the appropriate field of view; second, aperture aim, firing automatic tracking mode: This mode is the way to intercept the target after the target aperture, then turn on the switch to digital scaler unlock seeker in tracking automatically track the target angle range; Third, the scan target, firing automatic tracking mode: In this mode bit scaler instantaneous field of view angle results in a certain bias missile longitudinal axis of rotation, to expand a bit scaler intercept range, intercept seeker in the corner after the track automatically track the target range, is completely self-emission mode; Fourth, follow-intercept, fired automatic tracking mode: This mode gives the missile a maximum degree of freedom. Bit scaler with missiles and carrier aircraft radar or a helmet sighting system with dynamic features. Can be intercepted in a wider range of targets, the missile’s maximum performance to play. Intercepted seeker in tracking corner range automatically track targets. According to foreign military personnel assessment that the PL-5EII if used in conjunction with the Helmet, reaction speed, hit probability is superior to the AIM-9UM U.S. air to air missiles.

In addition, PL-5EII low purchase price (1995 to 25.5-27.5 million), is better than the AIM-9L/M’s.

future development of Chinese air to air combat missiles, although in the recent war in modern times, the distance from the air to air missile performance was very pushy, seems to let the world feel close to both fighters fighting has become the past. It is not. The typical pattern is to first air in the distance with the first round of air to air missile attack on the enemy, and fighting at close range with aerial dogfight missiles. According to the professional analysis, there is still air in a 50% chance to enter close combat, or the state, close combat is the future of air a subject can not be avoided. Therefore, the fighting-type air to air missile is still in the future air combat weapons can not be underestimated, passionately devoted to China will increase its efforts to develop missiles, air to air combat.

air show in this period, experts point out that the missile, its double the performance, aircraft systems to improve overall operational efficiency 16-fold, cost-effective than high. If the missile can reach high performance, even if the aircraft is not very good, the overall level of combat capability is also not far from the world.

air to air missiles of Chinese experts in the field, a chief architect of Mr. Jin Xianzhong type air to air missiles to accept China’s official Xinhua in an interview, said that at present, although some of the world’s advanced level of technology there is a gap However, the distance is shrinking. China-air combat missile positive high reliability, can adapt to the harsh environment, more good anti-jamming performance, but also has a good fit, more a “buried” or “conformal” state, more has information fusion capabilities, more a “farther and higher” ability to attack objectives such direction.

link: PL-5 Series



PL-5 is self-developed China’s first three kinds of air to air missiles, early in the development of pre- semi-active radar seeker for the type of PL-5A, and passive infrared-guided PL-5B. PL-5A in April 1966 began production of the first kind of bombs between 1971 July and the first flight test set, in September 1972 is to simulate air-launched missile test in April 1981 produced the first batch of samples 2 bombs, August the same year, the air target test, the end of March 1982 test launch. However, PL-5A in 1983 to stop development work.

PL-5B in the April 1966 trial of the first kind of bomb, 1967, flight test ground and air load, and then after another bomb trial batches of samples and a variety of ground and air tests. The end of 1986 production, to provide Chinese navy and air force to use and exports. PL-5B is still improving production, serving the same type of weapons development is the longest one.

PL-5B has the ability to background radiation resistant, anti-fragmentation warhead with a continuous rod-and-two. The former is equipped with infrared nearly made fuse, which is equipped with a radio fuse near hair, these two types of warheads with which nearly sent fuses used interchangeably. Warhead effective kill radius of 10 meters, infrared nearly made a good fuse anti-jamming capability, fixed-point burst location accuracy, single kill rate of 80% or more. PL-5B has excellent reliability, easy maintenance, in the sun when the angle is not less than 160 attack. To reduce the miss distance, interference of new equipment to improve anti-interference ability, all to attack and kill rates in the 1990s introduced the PL-5C, the performance between AIM.9H between 9L and AIM one.

order to extend the life of PL-5 series, 1994 PL-5C on the basis of a more substantial improvements began in 1997 launched a new PL-5E. It has a real ability to attack all the bits, the precision-guided, anti-infrared background radiation and interference, off-axis launching capabilities, infrared seeker intercepted distance and angle tracking speed, not only along ethnic lines, far more than the same missile, and the index are in the AIM-9L/M on top. Such as AIM a 9L/M, respectively, the maximum load is 32g and 35g, PL-5B/C is 30g, PL-5E was raised to 40g. Interestingly, PL-5E modified dual delta-wing control surfaces only, and did not install the nozzle thrust vector, the shortest range from PL-5B/C of 1.3 km to less than 500 meters. From these data we can see that the missile has characteristics of third generation infrared missiles, saying it is based. Although there is information that is export-oriented PL-5E missile, but its performance and price perspective, the Chinese military may be modified or purchase.

HD big picture: the domestic export-oriented PL-5EII combat missile
 
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256443_436132003098849_780741775_o.jpg


Dark Thunder.
JF-17 Sr. # 08-108 is one of the two aircraft which received dark colored markings during alternative color scheme trials. This scheme fail to impress PAF, current low-viz paint scheme was made the standard.

This paint scheme although look beautiful but it stands out in the skies, whereas the current light gray paint scheme blends perfectly in the air...making aircraft visually difficult to spot during close A-A combat.

[JF-17 Sr. # 08-110 was the second aircraft with similar scheme]
 
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256443_436132003098849_780741775_o.jpg


Dark Thunder.
JF-17 Sr. # 08-108 is one of the two aircraft which received dark colored markings during alternative color scheme trials. This scheme fail to impress PAF, current low-viz paint scheme was made the standard.

This paint scheme although look beautiful but it stands out in the skies, whereas the current light gray paint scheme blends perfectly in the air...making aircraft visually difficult to spot during close A-A combat.

[JF-17 Sr. # 08-110 was the second aircraft with similar scheme]

They are still using the same schemes. :D
PAF operates JF-17s with four different painting schemes!
(Standard, 07-101, 08-108, 09-111)
 
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25 JF-17 will be produced from next year. Pilot conversion is causing delay for third squadron as last 15-20 JF-17 production was finished in March, all delieverd to PAF. Only official induction ceremony remains

Even With 25 per year, it will take another 8 years to add 200 more JFTs (there are only 50 manufactured till date) and hence my comment of 2020
 
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dont all of you think HMS is very important part of WVR scenerios now?
so why no HMD for either block 1 or block 2?

I heard sometime ago (before Dubai'2011) that there is a plan to integrate HMS with Block-II, even if that happens it will be done after a year or so. In the mean time PAC and CAC have lots of other things to work out for the second block. JF-17 Block-I meets the baseline requirements of PAF, second block will refine them and third block would incorporate major changes.
 
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Even With 25 per year, it will take another 8 years to add 200 more JFTs (there are only 50 manufactured till date) and hence my comment of 2020

Well, PAC has other stuff to focus on than JF-17. Spare parts of Boeing, Rolls Royce, Saab and Dassault. 10 customers (8 foreign countries), production and R&D for IT, Aero-dynamics and avionics.

And did you know, 3 more production lines would be produced in Pakistan for JF-17??
 
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Well, PAC has other stuff to focus on than JF-17. Spare parts of Boeing, Rolls Royce, Saab and Dassault. 10 customers (8 foreign countries), production and R&D for IT, Aero-dynamics and avionics.

And did you know, 3 more production lines would be produced in Pakistan for JF-17??

And if you read my original post on this, thats exactly what I have said... i.e. unless there is a significant increase in production capacity for JF 17, it will take close to 8-10 years for PAF to get upto the number of 250 JFTs.
 
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And if you read my original post on this, thats exactly what I have said... i.e. unless there is a significant increase in production capacity for JF 17, it will take close to 8-10 years for PAF to get upto the number of 250 JFTs.

For now the confirmed PAF order is for 150 JF-17s, 250 is a hypothetical number as of now.

Hopefully in 6-7 years time period all the 150 would have been inducted.
 
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For now the confirmed PAF order is for 150 JF-17s, 250 is a hypothetical number as of now.

Hopefully in 6-7 years time period all the 150 would have been inducted.

That sounds reasonable.. The only variation to this may come if PAF wants to skew the mix more towards Block II and III which may introduce a bit of wait time in between..
 
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For now the confirmed PAF order is for 150 JF-17s, 250 is a hypothetical number as of now.

Hopefully in 6-7 years time period all the 150 would have been inducted.

Actually , it may happen faster..
The Production lines are streamlined every time a new batch rolls out.
Mistakes, pipeline snags etc encountered during the production of the first batch will be sorted out for the next one..
So aircraft will roll out faster. Hence the idea of taking the first batch's production rate as standard is incorrect.
 
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That sounds reasonable.. The only variation to this may come if PAF wants to skew the mix more towards Block II and III which may introduce a bit of wait time in between..

That is the basic idea, first 50 would be Block 1, next 50 block 2 & 3rd 50 would be block 3, while block 3 starts may be with them the older ones get upgraded too and by the time we reach Blk 3, if its still meeting the requirements PAF might order more batches.

Actually , it may happen faster..
The Production lines are streamlined every time a new batch rolls out.
Mistakes, pipeline snags etc encountered during the production of the first batch will be sorted out for the next one..
So aircraft will roll out faster. Hence the idea of taking the first batch's production rate as standard is incorrect.

Yups, 100% right. i was thinking of the max time allowed taking into consideration the current production batch.

But if we can get a twin engine version within a year or so, than we can also start producing converted pilots at a much higher rate and they would be efficient enough to take less training time period on the JF-17s, thus i can see all 100 jets getting inducted in the next 5 year time period.
 
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Yups, 100% right. i was thinking of the max time allowed taking into consideration the current production batch.

But if we can get a twin engine version within a year or so, than we can also start producing converted pilots at a much higher rate and they would be efficient enough to take less training time period on the JF-17s, thus i can see all 100 jets getting inducted in the next 5 year time period.

I agree on the need for the twin seater.. and its likely that it will fly soon. But the JF-17 simulator is actually very very accurate in its representation of the aircraft in its flying characteristics. So pilots with a little over 200 hours on other aircraft and some 20 or so in the sim can easily do their solo.
It is by far a very forgiving aircraft when compared to the older ones.
 
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How much time did it take to get these 50 done ?? 3+ years .. Right?

There were 2 squadrons operating with PAF in 2010 so I guess it's faster then that. Besides, initial production is always the slowest. By now production capacity should have hit the desired pace.



The delivery hasnt even started yet..

Does that mean that none has been manufactured yet? Also, would we know how many have been delivered so far?



No.. It leaves 200 as I said before. Also Pakistan does not produce these jets independently and is dependent on a lot of kits that 1st get manufactured in China and then sent over. So in a nutshell, China and Pakistan work in sequence and not in parallel for creating JF 17s.

I don't really know how accurate your assumption is of assembled kits arriving from China when we have assembly and manufacture lines. Most likely, it is the equipment that gets delivered such as the Engine, Avionics, Radar, seats etc from different suppliers.



At a realistic rate of 20 or so JFTs in an year (which is a higher rate than last 3 years), it will take another 10 years for Pakistan to reach a figure of 250 JFTs.. So 2022 or may be 2020. Unless there is a significant increase in build capacity at both ends (china and Pakistan) for JF17 assembly lines

Again, I seriously doubt that the work is serial, it's most likely parallel otherwise what's the point of manufacturing if not manufacturing all of it? In serial we can assume 250 JFT's by 2020 but in parallel it would be 2017-18.
 
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