JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[MastanKhan]

BVR Tatics will only work if possess far superior electronics warfare than yr opponent. Which is why agility on modern fighter jet is a must. Egypt warship possess far superior long range SSM but still could not register a hit on israel warship during the 1967 war due to the superior Israel ECM. Same in the warfare. A series of effective jamming on BVRAAM will most likely negate the long range missiles and end up close range dogfight. That is assume the vs side are equally same level of technology.

Hi,

So, in our scenario of pak india---who will have that----these missiles of the 21st century know how to beat the jammers as well---more often.

Please----in missile warfare---let us not bring into discussion 60's missile technology---I would say---let us not even talk about what they did in the 70s 80s and 90s---.

As for agility---the fighters have 8--9 g agility---what else is needed---missiles have 20---30 g capability---. Pilots can only handle a ceration amount of positive and negative g's---.

 

[Beast]

Hi,

So, in our scenario of pak india---who will have that----these missiles of the 21st century know how to beat the jammers as well---more often.

Are you sure? I think my analysis fits perfectly in India/Pakistan scenario. Do not underestimate ECM, they can be very effective even against proven and capable missiles.

Please----in missile warfare---let us not bring into discussion 60's missile technology---I would say---let us not even talk about what they did in the 70s 80s and 90s---.

I'm too talking about the current situation. ECM is getting more and more relevant in todays digital modern warfare. A superior interceptor forces usually fly together with an dedicated jammer aircraft to have an edge over an opponent who has none.

As for agility---the fighters have 8--9 g agility---what else is needed---missiles have 20---30 g capability---. Pilots can only handle a ceration amount of positive and negative g's---.

That is why Europe are developing Meteor missiles to have the long range no escape zone. Current AIM-120 is most effective at range 50km against a very agile fighter jet. More than that range and fire at it. The agility fighter has a very high chances of bleeding the AIM-120 and pull away using high speed/G(9) turning.. Unless the AIM-120 is fired at a flying tanker.

 

[Nishan_101]

I made an attempt to check the APPROXIMATE wing area and as it happens I can up with exactly 12.22 sqm for the area shown. Making the whole lifting area 24.44 sqm. I am surprised I came this close to the published numbers.

Include the rear tale and it will increase a bit?

 

[IceCold]

Now if there is a radar that matches the A2A capability of these systems, is it not worthy of consideration??

I don't know sir, forgive my ignorance on the matter. Maybe it is but my question was specifically w.r.t an AESA radar fitted JF-17. How good will be the JF-17 with an AESA radar against the IAF?

On a side note, you do agree sir that no matter how good the mechanical sloted pulse doppler rardar's are, the future lies with AESA which is why most airforces either already have AESA or are moving towards AESA radar case in point the IAF.

Hi,

Everybody can claim to be the king---but it is not the day for sd10 yet--aim120 is far superior. We are really fortunate to have some pros on this forum and one of them is Gambit----if you remember one of his posts----comparing the size of radar on an su30 to one on a jf17---see---the size that fits in the nose cone matters as well---.

The next thing is---you don't fight a war with yourself----you prepare to fight with your arch enemy---you have to have aircraft that makes your opponent stop and think----you must never fight from the position of an under dog----the mindset sets you up for failure right away----then you have excuses---ohhhhhhh---we already knew we did not have the right equipment----but we thought we could----.

Remember---if it does not look good on the paper and standing next to each other----it has issues. You need to have a hell of an air to air bvr and you need to have numbers behind it----.

Remember the Mongol army of Genghis Khan---his 'hand shot missiles ' arrows ' had a longer range and power behind them than the enemies----secondly----in combat---each of his cavalry carried around a 100 arrows in two containers behind their back.

So, a division of 10000 soldiers had ONE MILLION arrows to shoot at the enemy. Genghis Khan proved some 750 years ago that long range missiles work---you shoot and you scoot---you shoot and you scoot---and keep on shooting and keep on running away and destroy the enemy from a distance----.

That is why you have the su30---a bvr truck---. Air wars are not won on playing cutesies----that is what the paf has been playing for the laqst 20 years now.

Sir if i understood your post correctly, you are emphasizing on the payload capacity of the MKI. Then by this definition, even the F-16 falls short when compared to the MKI in payload capacity.

 

[Manticore]

tempest ,
have i collected all your dimensions related posts or did i leave some?
http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-thunder/71435-jf-17-thunder-information-pool-22.html#post2757125

 

[ziaulislam]

mastan usually see things in black white..ignoring the fact thunder can launch multiple quick mission from vast network equipped upto four BVrs it can too do the so called shot and run missions..the same policy was sucessful applied by the Sweden against the russians huge airforce..
i am probably the few who think that paf should concentrate fully on thunder rather than spending its limited resources on j-10/f-16s..

 

[MastanKhan]

mastan usually see things in black white..ignoring the fact thunder can launch multiple quick mission from vast network equipped upto four BVrs it can too do the so called shot and run missions..the same policy was sucessful applied by the Sweden against the russians huge airforce..
i am probably the few who think that paf should concentrate fully on thunder rather than spending its limited resources on j-10/f-16s..

Hi,

My goodman---thunder does not even have an operational bvr equipped sqdrn yet.

 

[MastanKhan]

Are you sure? I think my analysis fits perfectly in India/Pakistan scenario. Do not underestimate ECM, they can be very effective even against proven and capable missiles.



I'm too talking about the current situation. ECM is getting more and more relevant in todays digital modern warfare. A superior interceptor forces usually fly together with an dedicated jammer aircraft to have an edge over an opponent who has none.



That is why Europe are developing Meteor missiles to have the long range no escape zone. Current AIM-120 is most effective at range 50km against a very agile fighter jet. More than that range and fire at it. The agility fighter has a very high chances of bleeding the AIM-120 and pull away using high speed/G(9) turning.. Unless the AIM-120 is fired at a flying tanker.

Hi,

But the aim 120 is still the best bvr in this arena---the sd10 is still between development and operational stage--. As for as the range---it is supposedly 2/3rd of the aim---.

Off course ecm is important---who says it is not---there is no disagreement to that---but the fighter aircraft with a bigger and more powerful radar carrying a bigger load of bvr's will have the advantage over the smaller aircraft with a smaller less capable radar and lesser bvr's.

In the end---numbers will matter alongwith a potent ecm and bvr package.

 

[Beast]

Hi,

But the aim 120 is still the best bvr in this arena---the sd10 is still between development and operational stage--. As for as the range---it is supposedly 2/3rd of the aim---.

Off course ecm is important---who says it is not---there is no disagreement to that---but the fighter aircraft with a bigger and more powerful radar carrying a bigger load of bvr's will have the advantage over the smaller aircraft with a smaller less capable radar and lesser bvr's.

In the end---numbers will matter alongwith a potent ecm and bvr package.

Bigger load and bigger radar with plenty of BVRAAM plane without dedicated jammer might not has the edge over a smaller package plane coupler with dedicated jammer plane.

Its not just a simple of 'Oh, my missile has longer range and I fired at you and I will have an advantage"...

AIM-120 might has an range of 100km but the no escape zone is at most half of the range. A missile might have 40G while a plane has max pull 9G but the missile 40G is being slowly bleed off as it flies further away.. As I mention yr max range is at most effective hitting an tanker who cant pull much G.

Finally, PL-12(SD-10) has since commission in 2004.. So there is already a whole good years of 8 years of understanding and mastering the best used of it... PLus the AIM-120 missile in PAF inventory has probably being taken a good look by Chinese engineer. I will not be suprised they did not discover anything more advance than their SD-10.

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

But the aim 120 is still the best bvr in this arena---the sd10 is still between development and operational stage--. As for as the range---it is supposedly 2/3rd of the aim---.

Off course ecm is important---who says it is not---there is no disagreement to that---but the fighter aircraft with a bigger and more powerful radar carrying a bigger load of bvr's will have the advantage over the smaller aircraft with a smaller less capable radar and lesser bvr's.

In the end---numbers will matter alongwith a potent ecm and bvr package.

More close to the operational.. and its range, test accuracy and electronic guidance and ECCM are comparable to recent Aim-120 models.

 

[MastanKhan]

Bigger load and bigger radar with plenty of BVRAAM plane without dedicated jammer might not has the edge over a smaller package plane coupler with dedicated jammer plane.

Its not just a simple of 'Oh, my missile has longer range and I fired at you and I will have an advantage"...

AIM-120 might has an range of 100km but the no escape zone is at most half of the range. A missile might have 40G while a plane has max pull 9G but the missile 40G is being slowly bleed off as it flies further away.. As I mention yr max range is at most effective hitting an tanker who cant pull much G.

Finally, PL-12(SD-10) has since commission in 2004.. So there is already a whole good years of 8 years of understanding and mastering the best used of it... PLus the AIM-120 missile in PAF inventory has probably being taken a good look by Chinese engineer. I will not be suprised they did not discover anything more advance than their SD-10.

Sir,

Stop spinning yourself---thank you. If the kill range of aim 120 is half its total range then the same is true for the sd10 as well which still is in its final phase. That would bring the kill range of sd10 to around 30 km---


Sd10 being better than the aim120----technically it is not possible at this stage, if we compare it to the aim 120 model that we have. The sd10 is in its final development stage or possibly just made operational---which means---it has a long way to go---.

The chinese engineers will have no access to the aim120 in pak inventory---the sd10 hasn't beco,e fully operational as yet on pakistani aircraft----integration and operational manual will take another 3 to 5 years---.

 

[Tempest II]

Include the rear tale and it will increase a bit?

The tail is 3 sqm per side there adding 6 sqm to the 24,44, bringing it to 30.54 sqm.

I am not sure if that should be included. ... .... ???

 

[PakShaheen79]

Mastan,

I think you must reassess your analysis on the operational status of SD-10 missiles. It is no more a single missile program. It has four versions now where A has been completed while B,C,D are in progress. SD-10C will be carried by J-20 and it will have foldable tail fins to be fit in internal weapon bay of J-20 while SD-10D is a ramjet version much like PL-21 LRAAM.

Having said that, I agree that PL-12/SD-10A is not in league of AIM-120C5/7 yet... Americans are still the pioneer in the air weapons and associated system.

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan,

I think you must reassess your analysis on the operational status of SD-10 missiles. It is no more a single missile program. It has four versions now where A has been completed while B,C,D are in progress. SD-10C will be carried by J-20 and it will have foldable tail fins to be fit in internal weapon bay of J-20 while SD-10D is a ramjet version much like PL-21 LRAAM.

Having said that, I agree that PL-12/SD-10A is not in league of AIM-120C5/7 yet... Americans are still the pioneer in the air weapons and associated system.

Hi,

Please don't get me wrong---sd 10 is an extremely potent bvr missile----but in defence analysis----things must be measured with all the truth and honesty when you are facing an enemy with a current strength of 120+ su30 mki's---not naming the second string---.

My problem is with those souls who are talking 'satisfied' with the status quo---the SD10 type of status quo---and I am saying no----this level of satisfaction with this missile is a no no---.

The Chicken Hawks are talking about the pak F16 taking the eurofighter out---and for them---the battle has already been won---just by that one or two dogfights----.

 

[Beast]

Sir,

Stop spinning yourself---thank you. If the kill range of aim 120 is half its total range then the same is true for the sd10 as well which still is in its final phase. That would bring the kill range of sd10 to around 30 km---


Sd10 being better than the aim120----technically it is not possible at this stage, if we compare it to the aim 120 model that we have. The sd10 is in its final development stage or possibly just made operational---which means---it has a long way to go---.

The chinese engineers will have no access to the aim120 in pak inventory---the sd10 hasn't beco,e fully operational as yet on pakistani aircraft----integration and operational manual will take another 3 to 5 years---.

No... THat is a lame way to measure yr stance. If that is the case, R-77 shall be king of BVRAAM with its sated range of 150km?
Suprisingly, PLAAF has access to thousands of R-77 but China decide to go on a route making a missile much more similiar to AIM-120 rather than R-77 which claim to have a better range?

Its a matter of time, AIM-120 will reach Pakistan shore and being access by PAF personnel. No matter whatever US measure carry out as long as sometime leaves US shore and onto another sovereignity. Chances of leaking the technology is very high. US is prepare to loses this AIM-120 secret becos they can afford to. Becos the opponent is already making something similiar if not better things than what they currently sold.

Come on! Whom in the right mind will sell something sophisctaed to a friend of yr greatest foe? Do you really thing AIM-120 is some top notch SD-10 cant match? Becos SD-10 is as sophiscated as AIM-120.There fore it is clear for sale to PAF. There is nothing fantastic abt it that China need to know. US dont even dare to sell their F-22 to Japan(their best allies). What makes you think AIM-120 sold to PAF is some wannabe that China desperate cant match?

As for non operation of SD-10 in JF-17, I believe maybe lack of funding which resulted slow intergration. PL-12(SD-10) has been in PLAAF inventory for 8 years, it is already a fully operational. Next step will be PL-21 which is a ramjet version. It will be totally different from PL-12.