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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

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production of 26 JF-17 Thunder aircraft

By Associated Press of Pakistan on Wednesday, August 10th, 2011

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has completed production of 26 JF-17 Thunder aircraft at Pakistan Aeronautical complex Karma so far during a period of two years. A senior PAF official, while replying to a query of member of Special Public Accounts Committee (PAC) here on Tuesday, said that the PAF achieved the target regarding production of JF-17 Thunder in the country.


Read more: http://www.****************/paf-com...6-jf-17-thunder-aircraft-36273/#ixzz1UeX4HZU3
 
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the ones marked yellow and green are covered up when belly tank is installed ( plus i do not know what they are so i am playing common sense here(imagine the pilot jettisoning the fuel tanks so that he can finally fire his chaffs flares)).
Red are most probably the speed brakes
and blue are the chaff flare dispensers but they are not clear because obviously hes not flying with them right now.

see this pic to get a better idea
JF17_1190.jpg

Dont get angry, you better do some research first. common sense doesn't work all the time. during war you dont have that much time to drop tanks to launch flares. and most of the points you are mentioning, i posted long time ago in the thread which i linked in my last post. http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...mation-post-zuhai-air-show-7.html#post1325495

No, thats not true...if Thunders are operational in a MR Sqn it answers everything that relates to its operational status!

During fire power demo of HM2010, S/L Azkaar and W/C Khalid dropped 2000lbs bomb each, if you look closely at the video, S/L Azkaar dropped a chaff before dropping the bomb!

i ve seen that as well .. i ll be thank full if you could post that video here. every thing will be cleared.
besides its not such an issue that thunder is right now flying with or without Chaff and flare dispencers. it can be installed later as they were installed on PAF mirages, f-7 and A-5s. An operational status does not confirms that the aircraft has Flares and chaff on board. PAF operated a-5 and mirages for a long duration of time without these stuff. there are a number of aircrafts that were operated without C/F for long time but later versions were upgraded with it.
those thunder demonstrated at Zuhai and Izmir did not have dispensers on them. PT-4/6 seems to have black squares like dispensers similar to f-16s but they are not present in productional aircrafts.

JF-17 Flares:
jf17_flares.jpg


images

AOA, Arsalan bhai both these pix are PS

2_tG19ulpa33FF.jpg

combining
su27firingflares4.jpg


jf-17pakistaniforces_com2.jpg
 
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Sunday, July 10, 2011

PAF Build-up

I found this interesting video (see below) of PAF - Pakistan Air Force pilots flying in Chinese Su-30 MKK.
This "exchange program" is of course partly due to the fact that China is very close to Pakistan and has for long been a key supplier of aircraft technology to PAF. But for Pakistani pilots to fly the Su-30MKK must be very interesting since one of their main opponents in case of a new war with India would be the Su-30 MKI. India and Pakistan has fought two air wars (1965 and 1971, the PAF avoided the Kargil war in 1999), and the ongoing conflict in the Kashmir is far from solved.

What do the PAF have in their arsenal to use?

- 192 x Chengdu F-7/J-7 "Skybolt". This is an good interceptor aircraft due to high sped and good climb performance. But other than that it is only an outdated Mig-21 copy. The Mig-21 was outperformed by the Mirage III during the Israel Six-Day War. F-7 will be replaced with the JF-17.

- 121 x Mirage III.

- 60 x Mirage 5. The Mirage III and 5 have been upgraded during Project ROSE. The aircraft have been fitted with flight refueling probes to train pilots before the convert to the JF-17. Most probably the newest Mirage III/5 will be in service for a number of years as an attack aircraft, but sooner or later they will also be replaced with the JF-17.

- 42 (150-300 will be delivered) x JF-17/FC-1 "Thunder". Jointly developed by Chengdu Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAC) of China, the Pakistan Air Force and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC). The wing geometry look very F-16 to me. The fuselage have a lot in common with an ordinary Mirage. This aircraft will in the future be the backbone of PAF. The avionics in the JF-17 were supposed to be upgraded by France, but after protests from India (where France hopes to deliver Rafale fighters) the contract has been put on a hold. There are also rumors about the licence built Klimov RD-93 engines not being allowed by the Russians to be sold to other countries, which might stop export of the JF-17 to other interested countries. In the last video below there is a flight display with the JF-17. The RD-93 smokes in similar way to the RD-33 on the Mig-29. My guess is that the JF-17 will be used mainly for attack-missions with a fighter capability mainly for self defence. Se more on the defence.pk forum about JF-17.

- 63 x F-16. Mixed force with old F-16A/B Block 15 and 18 x newly delivered F-16C/D Block 52. Another 14 F-16C/D Block 52 has been ordered. The old A/B will undergo MLU - Mid-Life Upgrade in Turkey. Since Turkey is a NATO allied, and the Turkish industry is working on US blue-prints to perform the MLU, the MLU could be stopped if US wants it.

- 36 x Chengdu FC-20/J-10 will be delivered in 2014-15 and maybe the contract will be for up to 150 aircraft. According to rumors it was initially based upon the Israeli Lavi design, but later Chinese knowledge of the Russian Su-27/J-11/Su-30 MKK has most probably been introduced. But the planned cooperation with western avionics industries was cancelled. This might be a big disadvantage comparing to Su-30 MKI which has state of the art avionics from French and Israeli industries. Instead Russian made avionics or Chinese improved versions have been used. See more on defence.pk forum about the J-10.

Both the J-10 and the JF-17 has 1553 and 1760 databus, which will make it easier to integrate western avionics and weapons. But considering the problem Pakistan have with handling the situation in Afghanistan it is far from sure that western avionics will be available.

Against these aircraft the Indian Air Force have on the front line some 159 x SU-30 MKI (will be 272), 51 x Mirage 2000H, 69 x Mig-29, 200 x Mig-21, 147 x Mig-27 and 169 x Jaguar IS. 48 x HAL Tejas are being delivered, but are far from operational. 128 x MMRCI are under negotiation with Rafale and Eurofighter on the shortlist. 200 x FGFA (PAK-FA T-50 derivate) will be developed jointly between India and Russia.

One very interesting fact from a Swedish point of view is that the PAF is using 4 x Swedish Saab 2000 EAW (similar to the Saab 340 EAW the Thai Air Force have just made operational). These will be used together with 4 x Chinese Shaanxi ZDK-03 (Y-8F600). What kind of datalinks they will use is not easy to say. But I think that no data communication systems delivered separately by Sweden and China would be able to communicate. Instead the PAF must have integrated a system of their own. If this is the case they have a even bigger problem to solve if they want to integrate this C2 system into their F-16. The JF-17 can probably be lead by the Chinese AWACS, but to what use? The only reason would be a one-way data communication to increase situational awareness and in order to avoid Indian fighters. The J-10 in combination with the ZDK-03 could be a very good defensive force and maybe also fly top-cover for the JF-17 acting as bombers.

How long will the US support to PAF continue? The F-16 has an interesting story in Pakistan. US has for many years put Pakistan on their Military Embargo List, but the war in Afghanistan has made Pakistan an important ally in the region. The Usama Bin-Laden case has however clearly shown that Pakistan is not an ally that the US could rely on. Now when the US are withdrawing from Pakistan, the support to PAF will probably be reduced.

Altogether, about $800 million in military aid and equipment, or over one-third of the more than $2 billion in annual American security assistance to Pakistan, could be affected, three senior United States officials said.

This aid includes about $300 million to reimburse Pakistan for some of the costs of deploying more than 100,000 soldiers along the Afghan border to combat terrorism, as well as hundreds of millions of dollars in training assistance and military hardware, according to half a dozen Congressional, Pentagon and other administration officials who were granted anonymity to discuss the politically delicate matter.

Some of the curtailed aid is equipment that the United States wants to send but Pakistan now refuses to accept, like rifles, ammunition, body armor and bomb-disposal gear that were withdrawn or held up after Pakistan ordered more than 100 Army Special Forces trainers to leave the country in recent weeks.
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American officials say they would probably resume equipment deliveries and aid if relations improve and Pakistan pursues terrorists more aggressively. The cutoffs do not affect any immediate deliveries of military sales to Pakistan, like F-16 fighter jets, or nonmilitary aid, the officials said.

The only thing that might make it possible for Pakistan to have future support from the US is their possibility to help stopping the war in Afghanistan. When the US forces are leaving in 2014 there need to be a stabilizing force in the region and this could very well be Pakistan, since the other option (Iran) is not an option at all for the US politicians. On the other hand, if the conflict between Pakistan and India is not solved there will be very little interest for Pakistan to solve the conflict in Afghanistan since they fear to be surrounded by countries with interest in Pakistan territory (Pashtun tribal areas and Kashmir).

Without US support, PAF will be more dependent upon China.

What makes me a bit worried is that there is a well-known absurd logic in Cold Wars. If there is equal strength, nothing will happen. If one country is much stronger than the other nothing will happen, unless there is political will to do so. But if there is equal strength and one country feels that the other may get an upper hand, this country could be forced to act otherwise it would be to late.

The PAF build-up is one reason for why the Indian Air Force is looking for new aircraft. The Su-30 MKI is a capable aircraft, but will have problems with the J-10. Especially if the PAF pilots find some weakness that they can explore.

PAF has the last years been upgrading their aircraft fleet, but numbers is not always everything. Their aircraft (with exception of J-10 and the F-16 Block 52) are a generation older in design than the Su-30 MKI. One reason for why the numerical advantage of the Indian Air Force is being reduced is the scrapping of older aircraft types. But in their place there are now modern aircraft. It will also be so in the future with the introduction of the winner of the ongoing Indian purchase (Eurofighter or Rafale) and the next 5:th generation joint Indian/Russian version of the PAK-FA T-50. I therefore still believe that PAF would be not match for the Indian Air Force as their force structure look today, no matter what the Pakistan propaganda on the Internet say. But maybe the Chinese support will continue in the future with deliveries of the J-20? Then the Pakistan vs India conflict would in all practicality be a technology test area for Russian and Chinese aircraft technology.http://notoriusunpublicus.blogspot.com/2011/07/paf-build-up.html
 
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Sunday, July 10, 2011

PAF Build-up

I found this interesting video (see below) of PAF - Pakistan Air Force pilots flying in Chinese Su-30 MKK.
This "exchange program" is of course partly due to the fact that China is very close to Pakistan and has for long been a key supplier of aircraft technology to PAF. But for Pakistani pilots to fly the Su-30MKK must be very interesting since one of their main opponents in case of a new war with India would be the Su-30 MKI. India and Pakistan has fought two air wars (1965 and 1971, the PAF avoided the Kargil war in 1999), and the ongoing conflict in the Kashmir is far from solved.

What do the PAF have in their arsenal to use?

- 192 x Chengdu F-7/J-7 "Skybolt". This is an good interceptor aircraft due to high sped and good climb performance. But other than that it is only an outdated Mig-21 copy. The Mig-21 was outperformed by the Mirage III during the Israel Six-Day War. F-7 will be replaced with the JF-17.

Completely ignoring the upgraded F-7PG fleet which are 60 in service.
Quoting santro

I don't even know why you guys are talking about BVR for PG?
PG pilots are trained in BVR and fight BVR. How and when did this development occur I cannot provide, heck I had difficulty swallowing this at first but its true. This info is first hand from a PG pilot in Samungli..so I would suggest you stop worrying about the PG being solely a WVR fighter, The pilot in question also made simulated BVR kills during High Mark. Go figure.!
- 121 x Mirage III.

- 60 x Mirage 5. The Mirage III and 5 have been upgraded during Project ROSE. The aircraft have been fitted with flight refueling probes to train pilots before the convert to the JF-17. Most probably the newest Mirage III/5 will be in service for a number of years as an attack aircraft, but sooner or later they will also be replaced with the JF-17.


- 42 (150-300 will be delivered) x JF-17/FC-1 "Thunder". Jointly developed by Chengdu Aircraft Industries Corporation (CAC) of China, the Pakistan Air Force and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC). The wing geometry look very F-16 to me. The fuselage have a lot in common with an ordinary Mirage. This aircraft will in the future be the backbone of PAF. The avionics in the JF-17 were supposed to be upgraded by France, but after protests from India (where France hopes to deliver Rafale fighters) the contract has been put on a hold. There are also rumors about the licence built Klimov RD-93 engines not being allowed by the Russians to be sold to other countries, which might stop export of the JF-17 to other interested countries. In the last video below there is a flight display with the JF-17. The RD-93 smokes in similar way to the RD-33 on the Mig-29. My guess is that the JF-17 will be used mainly for attack-missions with a fighter capability mainly for self defence. Se more on the defence.pk forum about JF-17.

It was clearly stated by senior members here and at other forums that Indian pressure was not involved,the 2 major reasons for the french deal cancellation were
-Economic crisis of Pakistan
-We asked too much (MICA BVR,RC-400,avionics upgrades including spectra etc)

- 63 x F-16. Mixed force with old F-16A/B Block 15 and 18 x newly delivered F-16C/D Block 52. Another 14 F-16C/D Block 52 has been ordered. The old A/B will undergo MLU - Mid-Life Upgrade in Turkey. Since Turkey is a NATO allied, and the Turkish industry is working on US blue-prints to perform the MLU, the MLU could be stopped if US wants it.
Sure USA can stop every thing just like that,but its really foolishness to assume that they will because many of us remember the episode of supplies being blocked and some wonder woman came and requested us to let the supplies rollin again
Now will they put their supplies and exit strategy in jeopardy ??just for 45 MLU upgrades and 18 F-16 Block 50/52's
I dont really think GORAS are that foolish

- 36 x Chengdu FC-20/J-10 will be delivered in 2014-15 and maybe the contract will be for up to 150 aircraft. According to rumors it was initially based upon the Israeli Lavi design, but later Chinese knowledge of the Russian Su-27/J-11/Su-30 MKK has most probably been introduced. But the planned cooperation with western avionics industries was cancelled. This might be a big disadvantage comparing to Su-30 MKI which has state of the art avionics from French and Israeli industries. Instead Russian made avionics or Chinese improved versions have been used. See more on defence.pk forum about the J-10.

Yeah yeah MKI is the best,we saw that in the redflag 2008's :smokin:

Both the J-10 and the JF-17 has 1553 and 1760 databus, which will make it easier to integrate western avionics and weapons. But considering the problem Pakistan have with handling the situation in Afghanistan it is far from sure that western avionics will be available.
Again we dont need to "handle" situation in Afghanistan cuz some NATO and USA people are dependent on us for their supplies.
If it was me in place of Mr Zordari id already put my theory to test.

Against these aircraft the Indian Air Force have on the front line some 159 x SU-30 MKI (will be 272), 51 x Mirage 2000H, 69 x Mig-29, 200 x Mig-21, 147 x Mig-27 and 169 x Jaguar IS. 48 x HAL Tejas are being delivered, but are far from operational. 128 x MMRCI are under negotiation with Rafale and Eurofighter on the shortlist. 200 x FGFA (PAK-FA T-50 derivate) will be developed jointly between India and Russia.
Why not also put the future fleet from 2025??:rofl::rofl:

One very interesting fact from a Swedish point of view is that the PAF is using 4 x Swedish Saab 2000 EAW (similar to the Saab 340 EAW the Thai Air Force have just made operational). These will be used together with 4 x Chinese Shaanxi ZDK-03 (Y-8F600). What kind of datalinks they will use is not easy to say. But I think that no data communication systems delivered separately by Sweden and China would be able to communicate. Instead the PAF must have integrated a system of their own. If this is the case they have a even bigger problem to solve if they want to integrate this C2 system into their F-16. The JF-17 can probably be lead by the Chinese AWACS, but to what use? The only reason would be a one-way data communication to increase situational awareness and in order to avoid Indian fighters. The J-10 in combination with the ZDK-03 could be a very good defensive force and maybe also fly top-cover for the JF-17 acting as bombers.
Have no idea maybe senior members can talk more on this issue..:cheesy::cheesy:

How long will the US support to PAF continue? The F-16 has an interesting story in Pakistan. US has for many years put Pakistan on their Military Embargo List, but the war in Afghanistan has made Pakistan an important ally in the region. The Usama Bin-Laden case has however clearly shown that Pakistan is not an ally that the US could rely on. Now when the US are withdrawing from Pakistan, the support to PAF will probably be reduced.

Altogether, about $800 million in military aid and equipment, or over one-third of the more than $2 billion in annual American security assistance to Pakistan, could be affected, three senior United States officials said.

This aid includes about $300 million to reimburse Pakistan for some of the costs of deploying more than 100,000 soldiers along the Afghan border to combat terrorism, as well as hundreds of millions of dollars in training assistance and military hardware, according to half a dozen Congressional, Pentagon and other administration officials who were granted anonymity to discuss the politically delicate matter.

Some of the curtailed aid is equipment that the United States wants to send but Pakistan now refuses to accept, like rifles, ammunition, body armor and bomb-disposal gear that were withdrawn or held up after Pakistan ordered more than 100 Army Special Forces trainers to leave the country in recent weeks.
...
American officials say they would probably resume equipment deliveries and aid if relations improve and Pakistan pursues terrorists more aggressively. The cutoffs do not affect any immediate deliveries of military sales to Pakistan, like F-16 fighter jets, or nonmilitary aid, the officials said.

The only thing that might make it possible for Pakistan to have future support from the US is their possibility to help stopping the war in Afghanistan. When the US forces are leaving in 2014 there need to be a stabilizing force in the region and this could very well be Pakistan, since the other option (Iran) is not an option at all for the US politicians. On the other hand, if the conflict between Pakistan and India is not solved there will be very little interest for Pakistan to solve the conflict in Afghanistan since they fear to be surrounded by countries with interest in Pakistan territory (Pashtun tribal areas and Kashmir).

Without US support, PAF will be more dependent upon China.
More political Bull...
What makes me a bit worried is that there is a well-known absurd logic in Cold Wars. If there is equal strength, nothing will happen. If one country is much stronger than the other nothing will happen, unless there is political will to do so. But if there is equal strength and one country feels that the other may get an upper hand, this country could be forced to act otherwise it would be to late.
The PAF build-up is one reason for why the Indian Air Force is looking for new aircraft. The Su-30 MKI is a capable aircraft, but will have problems with the J-10. Especially if the PAF pilots find some weakness that they can explore.

PAF has the last years been upgrading their aircraft fleet, but numbers is not always everything. Their aircraft (with exception of J-10 and the F-16 Block 52) are a generation older in design than the Su-30 MKI. One reason for why the numerical advantage of the Indian Air Force is being reduced is the scrapping of older aircraft types. But in their place there are now modern aircraft. It will also be so in the future with the introduction of the winner of the ongoing Indian purchase (Eurofighter or Rafale) and the next 5:th generation joint Indian/Russian version of the PAK-FA T-50. I therefore still believe that PAF would be not match for the Indian Air Force as their force structure look today, no matter what the Pakistan propaganda on the Internet say. But maybe the Chinese support will continue in the future with deliveries of the J-20? Then the Pakistan vs India conflict would in all practicality be a technology test area for Russian and Chinese aircraft technology.
Yup all hail IAF
Ground realities:-
1.IAF has no other workhorse then Mig-21 as of today and looking at what Tejas has gone through with expected first deliveries of near 40 MK1's in 2014 (maybe even later since FOC has not yet attained) and after that a stop for an upgraded version while the jet took near 28 years to attain IOC what may happen with MK2 might be similar to what happen to the MK1 in terms of time price etc..
2.On the other hand PAF is maintaining a good fleet strength (considering its PAF we are talking about) and upgrading and replacing the current equipment it has with more capable toys.
The comparison in numerical terms is at a historic low.
3.JF-17 Block II is completely neglected in this post which might prove to be another pleasant yet cost effective surprise for the PAF.
4.with MLU upgrades and new F-16's PAF will be going up with
80+ F-16's and PAF eyeing 100+ FC-20's we will have
(180 F-16 Block 50/52 levels+ FC-20 against 398 MKI's + MMRCA)
(A ratio of 1 : 2.2,which might seem big but PAF has historically denied bigger odds than this near 1:4 in both 65 and 71 wars)
5.Simply looking at the structure of IAF its a mess (my opinion) since most aircrafts require heavy duty maintenance since most of the front line fighters are from Russia origin which traditionally require more care
6.Looking at the crash record of IAF we cant say that their maintenance is satisfactory...
add to that MMRCA fighters which are now confirmed to be dual engined and most countries using them have inducted them in limited numbers..
7.Then add the burden of Pak-FA
While PAF systematically is upgrading its work horses first and then looking for higher end platforms
As for IAF dont ask just look at this just look at this
Hal declares LCA an airsuperiority fighter
 
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Jf-17 currently lacking this ability because there are no Chaff and Flare dispensers under or over the thunder right now. might be installed later.

JF-17 has flares as well as chaffs and other means of defensive suit also.

You can't see the places for chaffs or flares as they are not visible on normal flight days, they get placed in needs of emergency or when required.

Be it JF-17 or Mirages or F-16s, except for the CAP duty aircraft, the flares and chaffs are removed during normal flying duties.

During war times, emergency times, exercises and for CAP duties you get the aircraft fully loaded.
 
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i was just reading a forum where they say jft is a conventional 3rd gen. stable design:hitwall:


Negative static stability

The F-16 was the first production fighter aircraft intentionally designed to be slightly aerodynamically unstable.[43] This technique, called "relaxed static stability" (RSS), was incorporated to further enhance the aircraft's maneuver performance. Most aircraft are designed with positive static stability, which induces an aircraft to return to its original attitude following a disturbance. This hampers maneuverability, as the tendency to remain in its current attitude opposes the pilot's effort to maneuver; on the other hand, an aircraft with negative static stability will, in the absence of control input, readily deviate from level and controlled flight. Therefore, an aircraft with negative static stability will be more maneuverable than one that is positively stable. When supersonic, a negatively stable aircraft actually exhibits a more positive-trending (and in the F-16's case, a net positive) static stability due to aerodynamic forces shifting aft between subsonic and supersonic flight. At subsonic speeds the fighter is constantly on the verge of going out of control




crobato 's post in 2008
The JF-17 is indeed unstable in the pitch axis. When the first ever prototype was introduced, its flight control system was FBW on the pitch control, but retained manual on the roll axis. Later prototypes switched to FBW on the roll axis.

If the plane has pitch axis FBW from the start, its a good reason and a very high probability it has negative static instability. More so in the later versions because the redesigned LERX and DSI can cause such changes. The DSI may not be as sophisticated as the JSF's but certainly a lot more than conventional fixed and variable intakes you can find in aircraft today.


I remember the designers of the JF-17, also the designers for the J-10, comment that the JF-17 is unstable and therefore required FBW, through an interview years ago.


You won't find anywhere in the world where a fighter that features LERX---which tends to adjusts the center of lift forward---and has advertised FBW yet to be somehow statically stable in pitch
 
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JF-17 has flares as well as chaffs and other means of defensive suit also.

You can't see the places for chaffs or flares as they are not visible on normal flight days, they get placed in needs of emergency or when required.

Be it JF-17 or Mirages or F-16s, except for the CAP duty aircraft, the flares and chaffs are removed during normal flying duties.

During war times, emergency times, exercises and for CAP duties you get the aircraft fully loaded.

To add more to Sir Taimi's post,during air defence missions a/c are loaded with everything they might need during any possible encounter with any intruder i.e. A2A weapons,guns, chaffs/flares (all in live state)etc.

Ratio of chaffs/flares load out depends upon mission planning (mainly mission type/formation/load out etc) for SEAD/LLS chaffs will be more in number as compare to flares.

Following are images from fire power demo of HM 2010.

chaffs_1a.jpg

chaffs_2a.jpg
 
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Imran Sahib

the command of PAC is very angry at these boys,command forbid these boys from taking pics but they did not back off from their stand.
and now mobile with camera is not allowed.
is it safe to post the pics?
 
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Just wonder why Egyptians, Turkish, or Arab countries think of JF-17 a bad toy or 3 generation jet?

JF-17 with BVR is not enough requirements for them ??
 
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Imran Sahib

the command of PAC is very angry at these boys,command forbid these boys from taking pics but they did not back off from their stand.
and now mobile with camera is not allowed.
is it safe to post the pics?

pics are uploaded somewhere else but if they think abut security they can mail me i am ready to help thiem and delete them from net.what else they need?. i am not happy if they are not .
 
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Just wonder why Egyptians, Turkish, or Arab countries think of JF-17 a bad toy or 3 generation jet?

because they never made it lolz ahhahhhah simply if they make a brick of wall thats gold brick if some one has brick of gold thats stone for them lolz
 
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pics are uploaded somewhere else but if they think abut security they can mail me i am ready to help thiem and delete them from net.what else they need?. i am not happy if they are not .

the issue was raised 1-2 days ago.the only thing i know is Commander of PAC was very angry at these boys.
sir i think it will be good if you consult some senior member.
 
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first place they should take there cameras at gates second they let them go inside in this situation when already PAC attacked and now if they want to remove i dont think its work as these are speared all around .even though if they are willing to delete i can req to webby asim or mods for delete .BTW which senior i am more senior then many seniors lolz
 
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first place they should take there cameras at gates second they let them go inside in this situation when already PAC attacked and now if they want to remove i dont think its work as these are speared all around .even though if they are willing to delete i can req to webby asim or mods for delete .BTW which senior i am more senior then many seniors lolz


hahaha.
ok.
i know damage is being done.
 
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Coming to the blog's idea of the JF-17 being used primarily for ground attack.. apparently he seems to ignore the types the JF is intended to replace. Which are the F-7 and mirage interceptor force. The all weather day/night strike capability on the ROSE M-5F's will be supplemented and substituted for by the F-16's.
Over all.. the quality of the article suggests somebody using wikipedia and fas to come up with a "genuine" opinion.
Reminds of someone here on the forum.
 
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