JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[bc040400065]

Let hope china will come up with an equal answer to FGFA and also hope that by that time our economy gets healthy enough so that we can afford enough of them either JXX or what ever aircraft

 

[sancho]

There is no official source confirming the types and percentage of the composite materials being used. They would be in small numbers, that is why they are not quoted, as its not of importance.

In the second batch the real amount of composite material may be revealed as it is being planned to contain good amount of composite material.

But that is confirmed from inside sources that some composite material is being used in the current batch of production.

Composites are important to achive a low RCS and normally that is one of the important parts at the beginning of such a development. Later you can only add, or change some parts against others with composites, but not that much unless you re-design the whole fighter like the step from F18 Hornet to Super Hornet for example. Batch 2 will be those ~100 with French package right? But as far as I understood it, it's only about radar, avionics and weapons, nothing that would need a re-design. Which means, it would be logic if batch 3 with AESA, new engines and re-designs for RCS reductions would incorporate composites don't you think?

 

[sancho]

Yes, that is the right approach. As per my study so far on the net, the design has been frozen till block II. First 50 are Block I, the second batch of about 100 JF-17s would be block II with the rumored french avionics, as the deal is being negotiated. And After these 150 are inducted, then i believe the new design of JF-17 will come. They may even have started on the design phase, but a prototype would be years away for now.

That's what I meant in my earlier post and why I doubt batch/block 2 will have much changes in terms of composites. The real reduction of RCS, be it in design, or in materials will most likely come only in the later batches.

 

[Peregrine]

Let hope china will come up with an equal answer to FGFA and also hope that by that time our economy gets healthy enough so that we can afford enough of them either JXX or what ever aircraft

Hi,
if our economy gets better than may be we will be able to get F35 as well, however for this purpose we have to pray for sincere leadership not economy when we will not have thugs & traitors in government everything will get on right track, u have the example of U-214... how the deal was detracted thanks to the present government

 

[wangrong]

And as for the mix of fighter aircraft, i would rather not go for L-15, rather efforts should be given to a twin seat JF-17. reason being L-15 is twin engined and yet another operational issue of maintenance of another type of engine, and they won't be that much of a help in a war situation due to their small weapon carrying capability. While a twin seat JF-17 will work as a trainer,

i think paf will buy FTC-2000/FT-7B

 

[Luftwaffe]

More likely but i am not aware of the price tag of FTC-2000
Remember JF-17 modifications..this thing can be turned into a very potential advanced Trainer as it is already..

General characteristics

* Crew: 2
* Length: 14.55 m (47 ft 8.83 in)
* Wingspan: 8.32 m (27 ft 3.55 in)
* Height: 4.1 m (13 ft 5.41 in)
* Empty weight: 4.96 t (10,935 lb)
* Loaded weight: 7.8 t (17,196 lb)
* Max takeoff weight: 9.8 t (21,605 lb)
* Powerplant: 1× Guizhou Liyang WP-13F(C) afterburning turbojet
o Dry thrust: 44.1 kN (9,914 lb)
o Thrust with afterburner: 66.7 kN (14,650 lb)

Performance

* Maximum speed: Mach 2[7]
* Cruise speed: Mach 1.6
* Range: 2 500 km (1,553 mi)
* Service ceiling: 16,000 m (52493 ft)
* Rate of climb: 260 m/s ()
* Thrust/weight: 1.31

Armament

* Guns: 1×Type 23-1 23 mm cannon
* Hardpoints: 5
* Missiles:
o Air-to-air: various short and possibly medium-ranged air-to-air missiles
o Air-to-ground: various
* Bombs: various guided and unguided bombs and rockets

Avionics
FIAR Grifo S7 pulse-doppler radar

 

[TaimiKhan]

Composites are important to achive a low RCS and normally that is one of the important parts at the beginning of such a development. Later you can only add, or change some parts against others with composites, but not that much unless you re-design the whole fighter like the step from F18 Hornet to Super Hornet for example. Batch 2 will be those ~100 with French package right? But as far as I understood it, it's only about radar, avionics and weapons, nothing that would need a re-design. Which means, it would be logic if batch 3 with AESA, new engines and re-designs for RCS reductions would incorporate composites don't you think?

as its not of importance was not in the context that composites are not important, what i meant was that the percentage of composites in JF-17 may be small, so small that mentioning the figure is of no consequence or importance.

But i believe by looking at Chinese aviation industry and their other internal aircraft models, they are themselves using lot of composites in their own aircraft. military, civilian models and helicopters.

So if we see these developments, i personally believe composites are there in JF-17, and as per the designed requirement. The all steal and some titanium body specification is way old. As we saw a lot of structural changes in the Pt#04, the percentage of composites in the aircraft would have also increased, seems PAF is not deliberately telling the type and percentage of composites. A member on the forum with some insight on JF-17 did mentioned composites have been used, hope he gives more insight, i will also try to get some info about it from my sources. But composites are there in JF-17 as per current requirement of the design.

 

[TaimiKhan]

That's what I meant in my earlier post and why I doubt batch/block 2 will have much changes in terms of composites. The real reduction of RCS, be it in design, or in materials will most likely come only in the later batches.

Yeah, problem is that PAF first needs to replace its older aircraft fleet by 2014-15. And the first 150 aircraft are gonna do that. So that is why not to further delay the project, the design has been frozen for now, slight changes would be there as per the evaluation, but major structural changes won't be happening till 150.

After 150 get inducted, then we may see another evolution in its design, and it may be a drastic one, as requirements would be different by then.

 

[TaimiKhan]

i think paf will buy FTC-2000/FT-7B

Well i also favor this aircraft, but it lacks digital FBW flight control system, it seems it has the same mechanical flight control systems. So if this aircraft has to become a true training platform for 4th gen digital FBW equipped fighters, this option is a must for it. As with a FBW equipped trainer, the pilots can easily be transferred to front line fighters. As by 2014-15, majority of the PAF aircraft would be having digital FBW systems, thus this i believe is a must feature for any PAF advanced trainer.

But as said, a twin seated JF-17 trainer, would be much much better and beneficial. It will work as a trainer, and as a fully equipped fighter when needed, and operational and maintenance ease.

FTC-2000 would become yet another type of aircraft in the PAF.

And to further add, some of the advanced air forces use their front line state of the art aircraft in the OCU role. We badly need advanced trainer aircraft in the OCU role.

Examples are:

Fleet Replacement Squadron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

RAF with Typhoon Eurofighter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._29_Squadron_RAF

RAAF with F/A-18s in the OCU role:

No. 2 Operational Conversion Unit RAAF - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So why can't we have a twin engine JF-17 in the OCU role, especially when major work horse of PAF would be JF-17, and FC-20s, F-16s all would be having digital FBW system.

For FTC-2000, a pilot trained with mechanical flight controls, will again have to go through another training to get himself accustomed to flying a digital FBW aircraft. So more cost to be incurred. But with twin seat JF-17 training no such need, can directly go to any front line fighter aircraft and fly it.

And the above given SQDs have participated in wars also when required.

 

[Dazzler]

In order to analyze thunder's expected abilities, one has to understand the roles of Mirage (3 and 5), A-5C and F-7s (Ps and PGs). It was deemed to be a fighter to fulfill all roles of the above with efficiency and lethality added with same affordability and even more maintenance friendliness.

Revised requirements after Indian induction of MKI and expected induction of LCA, a fighter was needed to fulfill all the roles of third generation mirages, f-7s and a-5s with added punch in all regimes (avionics, weapons, aircraft availability). In two and a half years of testing, it is heartening to hear that it has exceeded all the roles it was expected to fulfill and now PAF is so confident in thunder that they want to induct it in numbers as soon as possible. Aircraft performance is more than impressive and as discussed previously, it gave a daunting time to falcons. Thunder's "Arsenal" is an area where PAF is tightly lipped and are not willing to leak any info what soever but i believe that all the weapons package is either inducted or will soon be completed including the SD-10s. Its readiness was a vital factor to put it in operational preparedness by conducting massive exercises in shape of High Mark along with other inductions off course. I do know that it has RCS smaller than the Falcon, thanks to DSIs that hide the engine blades as mentioned by Taimi Khan. The exact figure however is anyone's guess.

Things appear very bright for thunder so far and for PAF in general.

 

[no_name]

Is it just me or does alot of PLAAF planes use J-8/Mig tailplane like FTC-2000/FT-7B and JH-7

Seems like they just adapt from the original J-8 fuselage

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I think Chinese should hire Ferrari company to design the interrior cockpits for its fighters , they can do the interrior design of the craft and fitting of avionics , the planes look fine the performance is there just that I think they need to get professional designers who know how to do leather interiors

 

[no_name]

But that would drive the price up. Maybe for 5th gen

 

[Peregrine]

Hi,
That's a good idea may be Pakistan should do that to one or two Jf-17 thunders only for promotional purposes, and Pakistan must come up with a good promotional video as well

 

[AVIAN]

as its not of importance was not in the context that composites are not important, what i meant was that the percentage of composites in JF-17 may be small, so small that mentioning the figure is of no consequence or importance.

But i believe by looking at Chinese aviation industry and their other internal aircraft models, they are themselves using lot of composites in their own aircraft. military, civilian models and helicopters.

So if we see these developments, i personally believe composites are there in JF-17, and as per the designed requirement. The all steal and some titanium body specification is way old. As we saw a lot of structural changes in the Pt#04, the percentage of composites in the aircraft would have also increased, seems PAF is not deliberately telling the type and percentage of composites. A member on the forum with some insight on JF-17 did mentioned composites have been used, hope he gives more insight, i will also try to get some info about it from my sources. But composites are there in JF-17 as per current requirement of the design.

There should not be any deliberate reason to hide anything about JF-17's design especially about Composite part unless there are any combact advantages associated with that. Composite will certainly going to benefit JF-17's design but question is how much it may have been used in percentile terms. There cannot be any deliberate reason, since it will in the end reduce the cost of production, at the same time speeding the airframe building.