JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[MastanKhan]

Sir, AMRAAM, SD-10 & R-77 or any other BVR missile needs guidance from the launching platform till it reaches the range from where the missiles own seeker can detect the target and home onto it.

AMRAAM, SD-10, R-77, Derby or any other BVR missile are fire and forget if fired at ranges from where just after launch the missile active radar seeker starts detecting the target themselves.

AMRAAM also needs to be guided within 30Km or so of the target for its own radar to take over.

No BVR missile is truly fire and forget at their maximum flight ranges, they all need to be brought in a specified range for their own seekers to detect the target, this includes AMRAAM also.

And if the guidance is to be provided by the launching aircraft through out the flight envelope of the missile to reach its target, then yes, the aircraft needs to keep its direction at an angle from where the radar keeps a track and lock of it, whether it be pointed straight at the target or little sideways, whichever the angel from where the radar can keep a track and lock.

With data link, it is possible for the AEW&C to guide the missile after launched from the launching platform who keeps its radar off to evade detection. But the firing i believe has to be done by the pilot himself, he gets the data and command from the AEW&C through data link and when instructed, it fires and takes a turn, and the missile gets its guidance from the AEW&C or even another fighter aircraft which may have a bigger and more powerful radar.

So Sir, AMRAAM, SD-10, R-77, Derby, R-Darter etc etc are all fire and forget missiles but depending on their radar seeker detection performance, if the target is away from their detection range, then they are not fire and forget, rather they need guidance from another platform to be on track towards the target.

Sir plzz read the below link to fully understand how the active radar seeker works as well as the semi active guidance which the AIM-7 Sparrow had.

Active & Semi Active Radar Guidance

ACTIVE AND SEMIACTIVE RADAR MISSILE GUIDANCE

A very detailed Missile Guidance Read:

Missile guidance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hi TK,

Thanks for your reply---what my question was----is the launching aircraft nose kept in the same direction as that of the missile launch till the missile seeker got a lock---like the sparrow missiles---which was not a very healthy position for the pilot to be flying in.

 

[Arsalan]

the fear is that JFT would become the 'MiG-21' of the 21st century so that is why every 'hurdle' will be created by its competitors.

yes that it!!

i fact i woul dare to go so far to say that after F-16, JF17 is the only plane with potential of such massive upgrades that can keep it flying for decades.

if you look at F-16 the bird introduced in 1976 has been upgraded in block to the extent that it is competing in the biggest air force tender of its time, the indian MMRACA project.

JF17 with its plug n play structure, can go beyond limits. it is made as an export market oriented plane facilitating the buyer to cutomize it as per the requirment.

regards!

regards!

 

[TaimiKhan]

Hi TK,

Thanks for your reply---what my question was----is the launching aircraft nose kept in the same direction as that of the missile launch till the missile seeker got a lock---like the sparrow missiles---which was not a very healthy position for the pilot to be flying in.

Simple answer is YES, the launching platform itself has to keep the nose towards the target OR the platform which is providing the guidance to the missile after the launch from the parent aircraft of the missile.

Main thing is whichever platform is providing the guidance to the missile, its radar has to be in a position to keep a track of the target for continuous guidance to the missile towards its target.

 

[gowthamraj]

^ taimi . That makes the launching craft more danger of attack. For eg. If the plane x have bvr capable of range 100km. And plane y with 60 km . If the x fire the missile it still need to be same position upto the missile reaches y. That time it enter 60km target zone and got fire from y. Right

 

[hataf]

Simple answer is YES, the launching platform itself has to keep the nose towards the target OR the platform which is providing the guidance to the missile after the launch from the parent aircraft of the missile.

Main thing is whichever platform is providing the guidance to the missile, its radar has to be in a position to keep a track of the target for continuous guidance to the missile towards its target.

^ taimi . That makes the launching craft more danger of attack. For eg. If the plane x have bvr capable of range 100km. And plane y with 60 km . If the x fire the missile it still need to be same position upto the missile reaches y. That time it enter 60km target zone and got fire from y. Right

i think thats why USA and other countries are tring to data link their air craft with AWA&C

 

[SQ8]

Simple answer is YES, the launching platform itself has to keep the nose towards the target OR the platform which is providing the guidance to the missile after the launch from the parent aircraft of the missile.

Main thing is whichever platform is providing the guidance to the missile, its radar has to be in a position to keep a track of the target for continuous guidance to the missile towards its target.

Maybe I missed this but taimi did you mention that even if you turn tables and run the missile will still keep moving towards the last known position of the target and its extrapolated position from its last known velocity..basically it goes to where the target should be based on the last speed and direction received by the launch platform.. and search for it using its seeker once close enough to that point.

So if by sheer stupidity the target keeps going in that direction then there is a fair chance it may be hit.

 

[Trisonics]

Maybe I missed this but taimi did you mention that even if you turn tables and run the missile will still keep moving towards the last known position of the target and its extrapolated position from its last known velocity..basically it goes to where the target should be based on the last speed and direction received by the launch platform.. and search for it using its seeker once close enough to that point.

So if by sheer stupidity the target keeps going in that direction then there is a fair chance it may be hit.

That is true..depending on any radar warning receiver on the target aircraft it would be too late to out maneuver or out run the missile..hence I believe who sees whom first is very important and of course the range of missile, capability of the aircraft, counter measures and altitude of the planes make up the rest of the parameters for a successful kill

 

[hataf]

if you don't give it midcourse update read the red part below
Guidance system overview

Interception course stage
AMRAAM uses two-stage guidance when fired at long range. The aircraft passes data to the missile just before launch, giving it information about the location of the target aircraft from the launch point and its direction and speed. The missile uses this information to fly on an interception course to the target using its built in inertial navigation system (INS). This information is generally obtained using the launching aircraft's radar, although it could come from an infrared search and tracking system (IRST), from a data link from another fighter aircraft, or from an AWACS aircraft.

If the firing aircraft or surrogate continues to track the target, periodic updates are sent to the missile telling it of any changes in the target's direction and speed, allowing it to adjust its course so that it is able to close to self-homing distance while keeping the target aircraft in the basket (the radar seeker's field of view) in which it will be able to find it.

Not all AMRAAM users have elected to purchase the mid-course update option, which limits AMRAAM's effectiveness in some scenarios. The RAF initially opted not to use mid-course update for its Tornado F3 force, only to discover that without it, testing proved the AMRAAM was less effective in BVR engagements than the older semi-active radar homing BAE Skyflash weapon—the AIM-120's own radar is necessarily of limited range and power compared to that of the launch aircraft.
[edit] Terminal stage and impact
Once the missile closes to self-homing distance, it turns on its active radar seeker and searches for the target aircraft. If the target is in or near the expected location, the missile will find it and guide itself to the target from this point. At the point where an AMRAAM switches to autonomous self-guidance, the NATO brevity code "Pitbull" would be called out on the radio, just as "Fox Three" would be called out upon launch.

If the missile is fired at short range (typically visual range), it can use its active seeker just after launch, making the missile truly "fire and forget". The NATO brevity code "Maddog" is used in this situation.

 

[MastanKhan]

Maybe I missed this but taimi did you mention that even if you turn tables and run the missile will still keep moving towards the last known position of the target and its extrapolated position from its last known velocity..basically it goes to where the target should be based on the last speed and direction received by the launch platform.. and search for it using its seeker once close enough to that point.

So if by sheer stupidity the target keeps going in that direction then there is a fair chance it may be hit.

Hi,

If it is launched in that mode----that would put it in the fire and forget category missile.

But if the aircraft has to fly in the direction of missile launch for awhile---that is no good---it brings the planes into the kill zone of the other aircrafts missile---if the 90 % kill range of the other aircaft is better than the one directed towards it---the pilot is in desperate trouble---.

So many bvr's---so many variables---so much to learn and understand.

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

If it is launched in that mode----that would put it in the fire and forget category missile.

But if the aircraft has to fly in the direction of missile launch for awhile---that is no good---it brings the planes into the kill zone of the other aircrafts missile---if the 90 % kill range of the other aircaft is better than the one directed towards it---the pilot is in desperate trouble---.

So many bvr's---so many variables---so much to learn and understand.

Actually.. there isnt exactly a mode(if you were referring to one that is).. The actual procedure.. (not too different from one that you will find in a certain commercial simulator from what I heard from USAF pilots).. after firing an AIM-120 is basically to hold it within that steering error circle for as long as possible to give the missile mid course updates all the way to the target(this may have changed for later models). Once the missile is in range of what it deems is the target's location its seeker will go active in what is termed as the missile going "pitbull". Between the time to launch and the missile going pitbull the pilot has the option to break his lock and pull to the beam and what not... and the missile then goes autonomous and flies itself to what it thinks the target should be at and is what you call "fire and forget".

Now if any other missile needs mid course guidance all the way till its seeker goes active, Its not going to be very good for the pilot's health. Consequently, one that relies only on its seeker to get to the target wont be too good at hitting anything.
The aim-120 is the premier system since it was the first to introduce three techniques to get it to the target.
1. head to where the launch platform's radar says the target is.
2. Use its own seeker to pick out the target one close enough so the launch platform is free to maneuver for another kill.
3. Use calculated guesstimates to head towards the target's position(where it will be) based on last update..freeing the launch platform to engage others or run away.

If the SD-10 does not embody these features, it wont be too good at hitting stuff.

 

[KS]

^ taimi . That makes the launching craft more danger of attack. For eg. If the plane x have bvr capable of range 100km. And plane y with 60 km . If the x fire the missile it still need to be same position upto the missile reaches y. That time it enter 60km target zone and got fire from y. Right

No by the time it enters the missile envelope of "y" only then plane "y" will be able to lock on and launch its missile...

By that time missile of "x" will have reached the target (plane "y") - it may or may not get the target - but the plane "x" is now free to dis-engage fro the radar lock of plane "y".

Hope u get wat im trying to say...

 

[SQ8]

No by the time it enters the missile envelope of "y" only then plane "y" will be able to lock on and launch its missile...

By that time missile of "x" will have reached the target (plane "y") - it may or may not get the target - but the plane "x" is now free to dis-engage fro the radar lock of plane "y".

Hope u get wat im trying to say...

If it was all that simple..and x and y had the missile ranges you stated respectively.. but .. feel happy to accept that.
If the vietnam, Gulf and Bosnian wars are any indication of combat..
neither would x launch at a 100km and neither could y launch at 60.

 

[ace slasher]

i just want to know has any country bought a JF 17 in the farnborough airshow?

 

[Super Falcon]

well KSA friend JF 17 is not a toy that u buy in seconds it needs time to get customer's remember Rafale still did not got its first customer even it is capable to EF and gripen so it will take time but sure it will be bought from many countries

 

[abaseen99]

very interesting ans hahahaha