JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[Crypto]

Hi Tk and pshamim,

Thanks for your answer---now tell me please-----is the amraam 120 c fire and forget----and how about the russian R 77 on the su 30---.

Neither of them is fire and forget! only at short ranges like SD10A.

 

[hataf]

Hi Tk and pshamim,

Thanks for your answer---now tell me please-----is the amraam 120 c fire and forget----and how about the russian R 77 on the su 30---.

Guidance system overview

Interception course stage
AMRAAM uses two-stage guidance when fired at long range. The aircraft passes data to the missile just before launch, giving it information about the location of the target aircraft from the launch point and its direction and speed. The missile uses this information to fly on an interception course to the target using its built in inertial navigation system (INS). This information is generally obtained using the launching aircraft's radar, although it could come from an infrared search and tracking system (IRST), from a data link from another fighter aircraft, or from an AWACS aircraft.

If the firing aircraft or surrogate continues to track the target, periodic updates are sent to the missile telling it of any changes in the target's direction and speed, allowing it to adjust its course so that it is able to close to self-homing distance while keeping the target aircraft in the basket (the radar seeker's field of view) in which it will be able to find it.

Not all AMRAAM users have elected to purchase the mid-course update option, which limits AMRAAM's effectiveness in some scenarios. The RAF initially opted not to use mid-course update for its Tornado F3 force, only to discover that without it, testing proved the AMRAAM was less effective in BVR engagements than the older semi-active radar homing BAE Skyflash weapon—the AIM-120's own radar is necessarily of limited range and power compared to that of the launch aircraft.

[edit] Terminal stage and impact
Once the missile closes to self-homing distance, it turns on its active radar seeker and searches for the target aircraft. If the target is in or near the expected location, the missile will find it and guide itself to the target from this point. At the point where an AMRAAM switches to autonomous self-guidance, the NATO brevity code "Pitbull" would be called out on the radio, just as "Fox Three" would be called out upon launch.

If the missile is fired at short range (typically visual range), it can use its active seeker just after launch, making the missile truly "fire and forget". The NATO brevity code "Maddog" is used in this situation.

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this is how all beyound visual range missile are guided

for more detail read on wikipedia

but SD-10A has two mode short range and long range----long range will be guided same way but in short range mean less than 30Km it is fire and forget missile

 

[TaimiKhan]

Hi Tk and pshamim,

Thanks for your answer---now tell me please-----is the amraam 120 c fire and forget----and how about the russian R 77 on the su 30---.

Fire and Forget would only be at ranges at which the missiles own radar seeker can detect and zoom in on the target.

I am not sure, but AIM-120 own seeker would be able to detect the target depending on its RCS from 20-40Km range. This if the missile is fire in this range, then it may be considered a fire or forget, or else the launching platform would need to keep updating the missile through its flight till it reaches close enough for its own radar seeker to pick the target.

Here, plz review a PDF file of the Russian active radar seekers, they have different sizes of the same model depending on the diameter of the missile housing.

Lets suppose if the SD-10s do have seekers based on the Russian 9B-1103 tech, then the SD-10 with 203mm diameter may be able to house the 9B-1103M-200 seeker, giving its seeker's radar the range of 25KM detection capability against an aircraft of 5m2 RCS, so if the RCS is smaller, the range will be reduced further, thus its not a true fire and forget missile at long ranges, even in close range of 25KM, the RCS of the target will matter and the lesser the RCS, the less would be its fire and forget range.

American tech is more advanced, thus add something like 5-10KM or so more in its radar seeker capability to pick targets and zoom onto them.

So neither of them are truly fire and forget at 100Km ranges, they need to be close enough for their own radars to pick up the target.

Other option would be for the aircraft to fire the missile & turn back and the missile using its INS & data of expected area where the target may be based on the speed, altitude, heading provided at the time of the launch, goes into that area and if the target kept its course, then the missile may pick up the aircraft, but in case the target aircraft changed its heading or did not arrived in the expected area where the missile was hoping it would, the BVR shot would go waste. So this is based on pure chance.

Best option would be that the aircraft radar keeps a track of the target and guides the missiles wherever the target heads, but it risks the launching platform also. Other options are that the AEW&C guides the missile once fired from the aircraft or i believe GCS can also help the missile head towards its target, just like how SAMs are guided by the ground based radars till the missile reaches the distance where its own seeker can pick the target and zooms on it.

here good reads:

http://www.roe.ru/cataloque/air_craft/aircraft_107-110.pdf

Russian AGAT seeker manufacturer website and info about different seekers it makes:

Advanced active radar seeker 9B-1103M (diameter 350)

en.wikipedia.org can also be a good source by reading the AIM-120 & R-77 sites.

Hope it helps.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Amraam is fire and forget---it recieves its initial guidance from the aircraft and on its way its own seeker takes over.

My question / or brain excercise was----does the nose of the aircraft need to be pointed towards the enemy aircraft for awhile till the missile has a lock on with its own seeker---like in case of the sparrow MISSILES.

Amraam does not need that---does the sd 10 need that and does the R 77 need that as well---that is what I am asking.

Thankyou---I got my answer----the R 77 and sd 10 are also fire and forget type of missiles---not the same as the amraam but very similiar---the r 77 and sd 10 are data linked till the missile seeker gets its target.

The sd 10 can also be launched to a preselected point where then its own seeker will pickup the target.

Now the question is----as the sd 10 is launched in the data link mode---basically the silent mode---can this data link be managed by the awac to make the launch instead of the carrier jf 17 turning on its radar to make the radar lock---before the launch----which mean that the jf 17 may stay unobserved.

The sparrow 7 needed the aircraft to keep its radar lock on the aircraft till the seeker on the missile locked on---the aircraft had to fly in the direction of the incoming enemy aircraft till the missile locked on.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Hi,

Amraam is fire and forget---it recieves its initial guidance from the aircraft and on its way its own seeker takes over.

My question / or brain excercise was----does the nose of the aircraft need to be pointed towards the enemy aircraft for awhile till the missile has a lock on with its own seeker---like in case of the sparrow MISSILES.

Amraam does not need that---does the sd 10 need that and does the R 77 need that as well---that is what I am asking.

Thankyou---I got my answer----the R 77 and sd 10 are also fire and forget type of missiles---not the same as the amraam but very similiar---the r 77 and sd 10 are data linked till the missile seeker gets its target.

The sd 10 can also be launched to a preselected point where then its own seeker will pickup the target.

Now the question is----as the sd 10 is launched in the data link mode---basically the silent mode---can this data link be managed by the awac to make the launch instead of the carrier jf 17 turning on its radar to make the radar lock---before the launch----which mean that the jf 17 may stay unobserved.

The sparrow 7 needed the aircraft to keep its radar lock on the aircraft till the seeker on the missile locked on---the aircraft had to fly in the direction of the incoming enemy aircraft till the missile locked on.

Sir, AMRAAM, SD-10 & R-77 or any other BVR missile needs guidance from the launching platform till it reaches the range from where the missiles own seeker can detect the target and home onto it.

AMRAAM, SD-10, R-77, Derby or any other BVR missile are fire and forget if fired at ranges from where just after launch the missile active radar seeker starts detecting the target themselves.

AMRAAM also needs to be guided within 30Km or so of the target for its own radar to take over.

No BVR missile is truly fire and forget at their maximum flight ranges, they all need to be brought in a specified range for their own seekers to detect the target, this includes AMRAAM also.

And if the guidance is to be provided by the launching aircraft through out the flight envelope of the missile to reach its target, then yes, the aircraft needs to keep its direction at an angle from where the radar keeps a track and lock of it, whether it be pointed straight at the target or little sideways, whichever the angel from where the radar can keep a track and lock.

With data link, it is possible for the AEW&C to guide the missile after launched from the launching platform who keeps its radar off to evade detection. But the firing i believe has to be done by the pilot himself, he gets the data and command from the AEW&C through data link and when instructed, it fires and takes a turn, and the missile gets its guidance from the AEW&C or even another fighter aircraft which may have a bigger and more powerful radar.

So Sir, AMRAAM, SD-10, R-77, Derby, R-Darter etc etc are all fire and forget missiles but depending on their radar seeker detection performance, if the target is away from their detection range, then they are not fire and forget, rather they need guidance from another platform to be on track towards the target.

Sir plzz read the below link to fully understand how the active radar seeker works as well as the semi active guidance which the AIM-7 Sparrow had.

Active & Semi Active Radar Guidance

ACTIVE AND SEMIACTIVE RADAR MISSILE GUIDANCE

A very detailed Missile Guidance Read:

Missile guidance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[fatman17]

ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2010


Jane's Defence Weekly


Farnborough 2010: Pakistan increases autonomy in production of JF-17 Thunder aircraft

Reuben F Johnson JDW Correspondent - Farnborough

Two Pakistan Air Force (PAF) JF-17 Thunder aircraft were displayed at the Farnborough International Airshow, marking the first appearance by that platform at any Western airshow. The aircraft were developed and built at China's Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC) Aircraft Plant 132 in Sichuan Province under the FC-1 designator.

The rebranding of the design as the JF-17 is intended to convey the message that the programme is a co-operative effort between CAC and the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) in Kamra.

However, the PAF and other senior technical personnel from the PAC have emphasised that "we are doing almost everything by ourselves now" and that where, at one time, assistance from the Chinese would have been required to integrate third-party onboard systems, "we are now able to complete this kind of work without the assistance of the Chinese".

PAC officials told Jane's there has been considerable investment made in the PAC in order to support a full-spectrum capability to not only support the production of the JF-17, but also the manufacturing of its major onboard subsystems. The construction of additional facilities to support JF-17 production has resulted in the creation of four factories at the Kamra site facility that go far beyond its original capacity as just a [commercial] maintenance, repair and overhaul.

The JF-17 programme is run by a PAF management team headed by Air Vice Marshal Mohammed Arif. Speaking to Jane's , AVM Arif said the team of engineers and designers supporting the JF-17 have proficiency with more than just the Chinese-designed hardware that constitutes the aircraft's configuration at present.

The concept for the JF-17 is to use it as a basic platform that can be exported to multiple countries and to fit it with whatever set of onboard systems a customer would prefer. "We have learnt how to integrate different avionics and weapon systems on to the JF-17," AVM Arif said. "There is still active interest in having the set of French-made hardware for the aircraft - the Thales RC400 radar and the MBDA air-to-air missiles - that have been under discussion for some time now."

The integration of third-party, non-Chinese equipment onto the aircraft is an option that would primarily be at the request of an export customer. The PAC programme managers are satisfied with the aircraft's hardware and state that the JF-17's avionics fit and glass cockpit are superior to the older-model F-16A/B Block 15 aircraft that the PAF acquired in the 1980s.

One of the systems the PAC designers give full marks to is the CETC/NRIET KLJ-7 radar set. A PAC programme officer told Jane's : "I have flown with this radar and with other models that we have looked at fitting to this aircraft, such as the Thales RC400, and the Chinese radar is every bit as capable as its contemporary analogues." He added that the performance of the CETC KG300G electronic warfare pod was effective and that "there will be an upgraded version available within a year-and-a-half".

One of the central question marks on the programme has been the aircraft's Russian-designed-and-built Klimov RD-93 jet engine, which is produced by the Chernyshev plant in Moscow.

Just prior to the Farnborough Airshow, the Moscow newspaper Kommersant reported that Mikhail Pogosian, the general director for Sukhoi and RSK-MiG, had written an official letter to the Russian Federal Service for Military-Technical Co-operation (FSVTS), which regulates all exports of military-related items, and the Russian state arms export monopoly, Rosoboronexport, asking that the next tranche of 100 RD-93 engines to be shipped to CAC in Chengdu be cancelled.

The RD-93 is a specially configured variant of the MiG-29's RD-33, optimised for a single-engine aircraft. This version of the engine was originally conceived in the early 1990s as an option for upgrading older-model MiG-21 aircraft. A similar model of the engine, the SMR-95, was also developed in the same timeframe for use in the South African Mirage F1 and Cheetah D-2 aircraft. In both configurations, the gearbox and other components of the accessory pack are rotated from the top - where they are positioned on the standard RD-33 - to the bottom of the engine casing.

Pogosian is reportedly requesting a halt to deliveries of the engine to CAC on the grounds that the re-export of the engine, once installed in the FC-1/JF-17, damages the interests of MiG in several markets. Negotiations for a MiG-29 purchase are supposedly ongoing in some of the same nations - Egypt, Algeria, Bangladesh and Nigeria - that have also been approached by the JF-17 sales team. For the moment, the contract for the export of these next 100 engines remains unsigned.

AVM Arif told Jane's that "if the Russians decide to cut off shipments of the RD-93 to us, then we still have other options. One of those is a Chinese-made WS-13 engine, which was certified by the Chinese in 2007 and has been in low-rate initial production since 2009. Pakistan industry officials confirm that it is currently undergoing flight tests on an FC-1 aircraft from CAC. Its thrust rating in the present version is almost 10 per cent higher than the RD-93 and an increased/enhanced performance engine version of up to 10 metric tonnes is in development.

When asked about the WS-13, AVM Arif stated that "the Chinese engine needs time to mature and might not be available for five years or more". However, one of his deputies said privately that the air vice marshal was giving the "worst case scenario and being a bit cautious". The WS-13, they say, could be ready for use with the JF-17 as soon as two years from now.

The JF-17 has also completed trials of dropping of unguided bombs and firings of the Luoyang Electro-Optical Technology Development Center (LOEC) Pi Li PL-5EII infrared air-to-air missile. The LOEC Shan Dian-10 (SD-10), an active radar-homing air-to-air missile, is currently undergoing integration and will be finished with its demonstration firing before the end of the year.

"The biggest plus for the JF-17 is the cost-performance ratio, which is exceptionally good considering what you get at this price," said AVM Arif. The long-term Pakistani plan is to have a high-low mix of fighters with the newer-model F-16C/D Block 52+ aircraft they are receiving from the US as the upper tier and the JF-17 on the lower tier.

One of the Pakistan Air Force JF-17 Thunder combat aircraft seen at the Farnborough International Airshow. (IHS Jane's/Patrick Allen)

 

[Lahore123]

if you really want to enjoy JF17 thunder pics then go to "PAF JF-17 in Farnborough Air Show 2010" thread thanks

 

[hataf]

I don’t whether it is posted before

But one certainly sees the difference in nose design and size

and might be the radar

 

[mean_bird]

thanks for the article Fatman Sahib!

Its heartening to know that an improved (thrust) version of the Engine is also under-development. That should significantly enhance its vertical maneuverability. Also this should put an end to all those SD-10 nay-sayers. So it should be ready by year end--which is just in time for the second squadron.

Lets hope our forumers visiting the show also get some news about the twin-seat version of the JF-17.

 

[SEAL]

"There is still active interest in having the set of French-made hardware for the aircraft - the Thales RC400 radar and the MBDA air-to-air missiles - that have been under discussion for some time now."

Zardari is going to France on official visit at the end of this month hope this time deal will be signed for JF-17 avionics and missilez.
one thing confused me a lot MICA range is just 60km is it gud for PAF and JF-17?

 

[mean_bird]

one thing confused me a lot MICA range is just 60km is it gud for PAF and JF-17?

What determines a BVR missile as good (or otherwise) is its kill probability which in terms are determined by its seekers and agility. In simpler words, its the accuracy that counts.

None of those 100km BVR missiles are actually fired at that range. In fact, to date only a few BVR missiles have been fired in a real war and most at about 25km range to maximize kill.

MICA might have a range of just 60km but its their kill probability (or accuracy if you wish) that will determine its advantage. MICA is certainly a very good missile and a lethal threat to any aircraft.

 

[Zarbe Momin]

Zardari is going to France on official visit at the end of this month hope this time deal will be signed for JF-17 avionics and missilez.
one thing confused me a lot MICA range is just 60km is it gud for PAF and JF-17?

Donot worry about range, most of BVR engagements at long distances are not very effective, air craft use tactics to break locks of radar guided missel and for heat seeking they use decoys and electronic counter measures also play their role. It is always nice to have different countries A2A missels.

 

[Arsalan]

Quoting Sir FATMAN's post:

ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2010
.
.
.
.
The concept for the JF-17 is to use it as a basic platform that can be exported to multiple countries and to fit it with whatever set of onboard systems a customer would prefer. "We have learnt how to integrate different avionics and weapon systems on to the JF-17," AVM Arif said. "There is still active interest in having the set of French-made hardware for the aircraft - the Thales RC400 radar and the MBDA air-to-air missiles - that have been under discussion for some time now."

now this is the most important part. we have been discussing this time and time again. the JF 17 have the potentail to be fitted with almost anyhing one wants and this is what make the Russians think that the JF might actually cause Thunder in the export market dominated by them..

regards!

 

[abaseen99]

any updates about jf 17 from uk

 

[fatman17]

Quoting Sir FATMAN's post:


now this is the most important part. we have been discussing this time and time again. the JF 17 have the potentail to be fitted with almost anyhing one wants and this is what make the Russians think that the JF might actually cause Thunder in the export market dominated by them..

regards!

the fear is that JFT would become the 'MiG-21' of the 21st century so that is why every 'hurdle' will be created by its competitors.