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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

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Hi,

The difficulties are right in front of us. Electronics issues---weapons issues---no bvr's---engine issues---did I miss something.

At every step people are saying that china will do this---chinese will provide with this system---when we get to that waypoint---the system is not ready---we get to the next waypoint---the system cannot do the job for weapons integration for what we thought it would---the engine is supposedly becoming an issue as well.

If you put in the KLJ 10 radar---you don't have enough space---you have to redesign the nose---if you redesign the nose---you change the center of gravity---you have another engine coming up because you think that rd 93 is not reliable---now you have to re-design the frame.

Mughaljee---I appreciate you asking this question---the answer has been in my posts all the time.

Think about it now---wouldn't it had been easier to kill Bin Laden and zawaheri and his cohorts on the slopes of tora bora on our side by our millitary---killed all the miscreants at one time---even if the u s of a had not sold millitary hardware to us---the europeans were easy game.

It all goes back to pak army not doing what it was supposed to do years ago.

You know the punjabi saying---sau littar wi khaiy tey sau gandey wi khay----that is what pak and pak army is going through---.

2002 was an open season for us---we could have easily gone the french route or gone the grippen way---if we had to go the F 16 route ultimately, then why not force the issue on the americans when they demanded all the bases from us. The world was at our feet at that time----we are paying the price for our lackadaisical approach today.

After all this hoopla---who is our most reliable high tech supplier---can you believe it---for the upteenth time---THE US OF A.

Who is going to give us the most high tech bvr's--THE US OF A---.

Mughaljee---if you decide to kiss ar-se----then at least put your lips down and suck it so hard and don't let it go---.

We did a half ar-se job with war against terrorism---we have done a half ar-se job with this JF 17 and what not.

So how do I explain the difficulties---maybe you should explain these difficulties and let me be the observer.:pakistan:


sometimes the truth is too bitter to hear! so alot of people like to ignore it & keep believing what they want because accepting the truth just changes their world completely! so they rather call themselves "optimistic" and carry on believing what they wish its better to let them be. not everyone is ready for the truth. :coffee:
 
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Yeah there is a lot of ambiguity. But simple fact is that they are replacing A-5s, so people assumed that it is gonna be doing ground attack role only.

Problem is PAF had set the first 50 with Chinese avionics to be used for ground attack role, as they don;t want to induct another BVR missile, the Chinese PL-12, as if it had gotten a western radar then AIM-120s would have been bought further or even may be European ones.

PAF is kind of shy inducting something which is very new in Chinese service, as we have ourselves made a BVR and we may have helped the Chinese in perfecting their SD-10s also, as pshamim sir had disclosed that we had tested our own BVR missile with 120KM range after it was modified and improved by our own after we got the tech from the SAs, the Darter series and we did gave some tech to Chinese also which they used in improving their own PL-12s. As per recent info, PL-12 has a newer model named PL-12G, which has improved range of about 100+KM and with a new seeker compared to the older Russian designed seeker used on the PL-12s or SD-10As as we know.

So PAF might even be thinking to use their own BVR missile on the JF-17s, which they can easily integrate with the JF-17.

End result is, that there is lot of confusion as PAF never releases its info and what we get is mostly rumors based on people who have access to some inside knowledge.

But underestimating JF-17 is not good.

here read this post: http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/28713-h2-h4-aam-agm-2.html#post409647

& this one too: http://www.defence.pk/forums/wmd-missiles/28713-h2-h4-aam-agm-3.html#post410343

And reading whole thread would further add to your info.

Surprised ...............
:tup:PAF
:tup:Nescom
:smitten::pakistan::pakistan:
 
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Pakistan is full of Surprises. Indeed the world got stunned when we fire Babur Cruise missile. Hope we give more surprises to the world in future especially to our neighbors... Both Good and Bad ones.:pakistan::smitten:
 
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^^couple of points:

The engine is a modified version of the MiG-29/-35 fighters,Klimov RD-33 engine, but has been redesigned for a single-engine configuration with the accessory pack rotated in order to accommodate maintenance and servicing on the JF-17. so the poweplant is not a 'failure' as assumed by many. furthermore, restrictions on 'future' sales to Pakistan is a moot point. two contracts have been signed between Russia and China for 250-300 engines.

the other point is simply 'commercial driven'...

"Western defence officials in Islamabad said the Russian decision may have been prompted by expectations of rising demand for the JF-17 fighter aircraft, so far delivered by China only to Pakistan.The Russians probably see future demand for the JF-17 coming potentially from parts of Asia and Africa in the long run. Their decision must have been a commercial one, knowing that this project has a future, said one Western defence official in Islamabad.

currently the existing thunders are operating from peshawar with 26 sqdn, in the CAS role!. the reports are very encouraging for this type in the CAS role.

i agree that the AD role has been 'delayed' due to the denial by the french for the radar and missile package, but the PAF has encountered similar 'hurdles' in the past, with the Super-7 project (US did not allow avionics giant Grumann to sell the avionics package to China due to the Tianmann square incident). that resulted in a 10 year delay until the FC-1/JF-17 project and within another 10 years the project is flying successfully and meeting all PAF requirements for the CAS role.

....and why is everyone trying to fail the PL-12/SD-10 BVR missile? China has worked very hard to ensure the 'precision' of its A2A and AGM weapons equal or better than whats available in the west. the SD-10 is operational and in service with its J-10A/B strike fighter.

PAF has a 'strategy' to mix western avionics/weapons with rugged chinese airframe/powerplant design - and has done so successfully. check the history of the F-6 (MB-00 ejection seats/grifo radar/sidewinder) made it a very potent a/c at a 'affordable' price. similarly with the F-7 and now they will succeed in a similar way with the JF-17.

the italians are currently offering a 'upgraded' version of the grifo radar which is compatible with operating AIM-120s/Sidewinders/AGMs.

i can go on 'record' to say that the policy of 'sanctions' by the US is history (they have not worked and the realization is 'crystal clear' to them).

so please all is not lost - the JF-17 is a viable AD/CAS platform which conforms with PAF requirements and will be inducted in large numbers as the 'workhorse' of the airforce. future blocks will bring this type closer to a 4th gen aircraft or atleast a 3.5++.

PAF is upgrading its F-16s (all blocks) for AD/Strike roles. all will operate the AIM-120/Sidewinder/Maverick/HARM weapons loads. the PAF needs 100 F-16s and is on its way to achieving this goal (albeit delayed).


the FC-20 will be another AD/Strike platform which will augment the F-16s in a similar role - PAF FC-20 will be 'vastly' different than the current J-10 in PLAAF service. we just have to wait until most all JF-17s are fully inducted and integrated in the PAF.

finally China is making 'great strides' in avionics and powerplant technology with agreements with Ukraine and many EU countries (like Norway, Sweden stc) to build world class radars, missiles and engines:pakistan::china:
 
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China unveils recent weapon developments

Robert Hewson Editor, Jane's Air-Launched Weapons - London

A video produced to celebrate the recent achievements of the China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) reveals a wealth of evidence for new Chinese weapons programmes and the pace of weapons systems development by the People's Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF).

The official footage, which has now appeared on the internet, shows an entirely new class of air-to-surface missiles, airborne launch trials of the Kh-31 high-speed anti-radiation missile (ARM) and the PL-12 active radar beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) , heavy air-to-surface loads for the Chengdu J-10 and Shenyang J-11B fighters, plus extensive test and development activity with virtually every front-line combat aircraft in Chinese service.

Most intriguing is a new missile design believed to be designated KD-88. A few blurred images of a weapon labelled KD-88 have been seen prior to this but the CFTE film shows two distinct versions being trialled by Xian JH-7A attack aircraft. The missile is roughly 3.5 m long and powered by a small turbojet/turbofan engine with an underslung intake. Two different seeker types are fitted - one appears to be electro-optical (EO, potentially an imaging infrared seeker) while the other is either an active radar seeker or a passive RF-homing seeker for the defence suppression mission.

JH-7As carry the KD-88 together with an unidentified pod under its centre fuselage. This pod is tipped with two di-electric fairings pointing to its use as an emitter locator to cue an ARM version of the KD-88. However, it may also function as a datalink to provide man-in-the-loop guidance over extended ranges for the EO-seeker KD-88 variant.

Also shown alongside the two KD-88 weapons is what appears to be an air-launched YJ-8K (C-801) anti-ship missile fitted with a new turbojet engine. This is not the same as the much larger C-802K weapon.

Another important development is the launch of what is almost certainly a Chinese-built Kh-31P (AS-17 'Krypton') ramjet-powered ARM by a JH-7. China is believed to have launched a national programme to build Kh-31s that was so extensive it consumed most of the industrial resources at the missile's Russian designers and developers, leaving the original manufacturers (Soyuz-Turayevo and Zvezda-Strela) unable to continue production in Russia.

Several test launches of the PL-12 (SD-10) BVRAAM are shown, all using the Shenyang J-11B (licence-built Su-27SK). The PL-12 is now in operational service on both the J-11B and the J-10, marking a major achievement for China's missile industry.

J-11Bs and J-10s are also shown carrying (and in some cases delivering) sizeable bomb loads, proving that they are true multirole aircraft. The emergence of the JH-7A as both a precision-guided munitions carrier and now a platform for standoff weapons is significant. Furthermore, with the Kh-31P (local designation YJ-91) and perhaps an ARM version of the KD-88 the JH-7A is functioning as a dedicated suppression of enemy air defences (SEAD) aircraft - an entirely new capability for the PLAAF.

The resources and facilities allocated to the CFTE are very extensive by Western standards. The video shows a test fleet of dozens of aircraft based at least two sprawling air bases. The commentary notes that the CFTE has conducted flight testing on 36 different types of aircraft and 28 types of aero engines.

The PL-12 (export designation SD-10) is an active radar BVR AAM. One of very few such weapons in production today, it is a vital combat asset for the PLAAF.
 
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one final point - the JF-17 was designed and manufactured to combat India's LCA and not the SU-30MKI - leave that to the F-16s and the FC-20s.
 
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Pakistan joins AMRAAM club in biggest-ever buy

Robert Hewson Editor, Jane's Air-Launched Weapons - London

The Pakistan Air Force will, for the first time, gain a BVR active-radar AAM capability
The AMRAAM sale is the biggest single export order for the AIM-120



The US has concluded a USD284 million deal to supply Pakistan with 200 Raytheon AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles (AAMs) and 500 AIM-120C5 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM) systems.

The AMRAAM sale marks the biggest single export order in the history of the AIM-120 programme and gives the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) a beyond-visual-range (BVR) active-radar AAM capability for the first time. The missiles will be carried by the PAF's newly ordered F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft and its existing F-16A/B Block 15s, which will acquire AMRAAM compatibility as part of a mid-life upgrade.

The arrival of the AMRAAM in PAF service gives the air force a significant combat capability it has previously been denied. Pakistan has explored several clandestine avenues to developing its own active radar BVR AAMs to counter India's considerable stocks of weapons in the same class.

Pakistan is also expected to acquire the Chinese-developed SD-10 (PL-12) AAM with its JF-17 Thunder lightweight fighters. SD-10s would also be part of any potential Chengdu J-10 order.

Pakistan's closer defence ties with the US may force a re-assessment of its links with China. The US has now granted Pakistan access to effective modern weapon systems, such as the AMRAAM, curbing the need for the PAF to look for suppliers elsewhere.

Hand in hand with US equipment will come restrictions on the potential transfer of technology - such as the AMRAAM - to China, with Pakistan forced to distance itself from its Chinese partners as a result.

India will no doubt note the delivery of the AMRAAM order to Pakistan with interest. The Indian Air Force's large front-line force of Su-30MKIs, MiG-29s and MiG-21UPGs is equipped with Vympel's RVV-AE (R-77) active radar AAM.

The arrival of the AMRAAM and an expanded F-16 force into PAF service balances the regional air-power equation, to a degree.

AMRAAM deliveries to the PAF will start in 2010 and run until 2012. The contract with Raytheon is a Foreign Military Sales agreement, so missiles will be allocated to Pakistan from the relevant annual production lots for the US government. The 200 AIM-9M Sidewinders are being delivered from refurbished stocks. The AMRAAM and Sidewinder order is part of a much larger US-supplied F-16 weapons package for Pakistan, originally announced in June 2006.

Pakistan set to expand fighter aircraft fleet (jdw.janes.com, 07/06/06)

Pakistan's F-16A/B Block 15 fighters will acquire AMRAAM compatibility as part of a mid-life upgrade.
 
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one final point - the JF-17 was designed and manufactured to combat India's LCA and not the SU-30MKI - leave that to the F-16s and the FC-20s.

Still debateable.
Imagine JF-17 in intercept role with SD-10BVR, chinese AESA and datalink with ground and AWACS!

though not related to thread subject but i would like to add to the article posted above; that Pakistan's older F-16 will be able to fire AIM-120 after MLU.
 
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I think the H-4 is BVr becasue it has such a high range

may be pak is nt revealing it because to get Aim 120 and gain much experiance frm that and later develop on your own

reverse engineering is nt a sin we hav to do it too
 
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Chinese Fighter Development

by Jack Collins

China started developing its own jet fighter aircraft after the end of the Korean War (in which Chinese volunteer pilots flew Russian-built MiG-15 fighters). Over the next five decades China has produced a variety of designs, many of which are largely unknown in the rest of the world. One key deficiency that this survey highlights is the inability of the Chinese to produce a reliable, efficient and powerful powerplant. Even at the beginning of the 21st century, China is reliant on foreign engines for its fighter aircraft.

East Wind Series:

East Wind 104: A "paper airplane" designed at the Shenyang Aircraft Factory under Soviet tutelage. Designed as a Mach 1.4 capable light fighter aircraft for the PLA Air Force (PLAAF).

East Wind 107: An enlarged East Wind 104 developed at the insistence of the aviation industry control section. The design target was for a maximum speed of Mach 1.8 and a service ceiling of 20,000 metres. Included a variable angle of attack design similar to the F-8U Crusader or Soviet Ye-series designs. In 1959 the East Wind 107 was discontinued in favour of the East Wind 113 design.

East Wind 113: At the end of 1959 the Harbin Military Engineering Institute proposed the development of a Mach 2.5 capable fighter with a service ceiling of 25,000 metres. It mainly took the American F-104, F-105 and B-58 as design models. One Type-814 turbojet engine was to power the East Wind 113 and the aircraft carried an airborne intercept radar and a computer. The project was abandoned because of developmental difficulties, and the ready availability of the MiG-21 from the Soviet Union.

J-8 and J-9:

By 1962 the Chinese aviation industry had reverse-engineered the MiG-21 and placed it into production as the J-7. In order to cope with the emerging threat posed by the American F-4 Phantom and U-2 strategic reconnaissance aircraft, the PLAAF in 1964 called for development of a new fighter aircraft with performance surpassing that of the J-7. The request emphasised the need for high-speed performance at high altitudes. In response to the PLAAF's request, the 601 Institute and Shenyang aircraft factory proposed two new technology development plans, namely the J-8 and J-9 plans.

J-8: In 1964, the 601 Institute proposed the J-8 to meet the PLAAF requirement for a high-altitude interceptor. This design took the MiG-21/J-7 and enlarged the fuselage, installed two WP-7B afterburning turbojets but retained the nose intake. The prototype J-8 flew in 1969 and achieved a maximum speed of Mach 2.2 and a ceiling of 20,000 metres. It mounted a 23mm twin-barrel cannon and could carry two underwing PL-2A infrared homing air-to-air missiles. Test flights continued during the Cultural Revolution, but no production could take place. The all-weather advanced version (J-8-I), used an SR-4 airborne intercept radar and increased the missile load to four. The J-8 finally entered service in 1981 (but was still referred to as "an operational testbed aircraft" in the late 1980s). The J-8 was the first independently developed fighter aircraft to enter service with the PLAAF.

J-9: The J-9 project ran in parallel with the J-8 project but used a completely new airframe. The design target maximum speed was Mach 2.4 at above 20,000 metres altitude. In order to achieve this target the J-9 was fitted with an 8,500kg thrust turbojet engine and the 601 Institute initially used a tailless delta design. Development at this point shifted to the newly built 611 Institute and the Chengdu Aircraft Factory. At the beginning of the 1970s, the 611 Institute proposed a new design using a canard ahead of the delta wing (not dissimilar to the Swedish Viggen), but because it required new materials and know-how plus engine performance problems it wasn't until 1975 before the design could be completed. The new J-9 design was quite advanced with air intakes on the fuselage sides featuring variable inlet geometry to alter the compression mixture. It used a 12,400 kg wet thrust turbofan engine and featured a Type 205 radar (search range about 70km) and four PL-4 radar-guided air-to-air missiles. The J-9 plan was discontinued in 1980. However, the effort was not totally wasted as the J-9 development enabled Chinese engineers to gain experience with the canard layout type, experience that would prove useful in the J-10 project.

The original J-12 and J-11:

After the 1967 Middle East War, the PLAAF proposed development of a replacement for the J-6 (MiG-19 Farmer) featuring good low altitude performance, short takeoff and landing run and simplicity. The Shenyang Aircraft Factory and the Nanchang Aircraft Factory proposed respectively the J-11 and the J-12.

(original) J-11: The Shenyang proposal was to be powered by one British Spey-512 afterburning turbofan engine and followed a conventional light fighter design with swept back wings, fuselage-side mounted inlets and a Type 645 or 204 radar. The aircraft's normal total weight was 8,700 kg. At 5,000 metres its climb rate was 197 metres per second. Maximum range was 2,300 kilometres and takeoff distance was less than 500 metres. Weapons consisted of two 30mm cannons and two infrared homing AAMs or two rocket pods or bombs. The original design specified a zero-zero ejection seat for the pilot, but this objective was not achieved. The J-11 was a sophisticated design for its time and achieved the design requirements, but because the British Spey-512 engines were difficult for China to obtain and because the Shenyang factory was ordered to concentrate its energies on the J-8, the J-11 never went further than the blueprint stage.

(original) J-12: Nanchang interpreted the PLAAF request as being for an ultra-lightweight fighter and produced a four-tonne design with a nose intake for its single WP-6 afterburning turbojet. The J-12 project started in 1969 and it only took 17 months for detailed design, wind tunnel tests and the production of three prototypes. After three years of test flights beginning in 1970, Nanchang made a series of revisions to the design to cope with problems including poor engine performance. The redesigned J-12 made 135 test flights, achieving a maximum speed of Mach 1.386 (surpassing the J-6) and showing sprightly acceleration, a takeoff run of less than 500 metres and a ceiling of 17,300 metres (also superior to the J-6). The J-12 was fitted with a 30mm and a 23mm cannon and had provision for up to 3 AAMs. However, in 1978 the PLAAF decided the J-12 was not suitable for the demands of modern air warfare and stopped development. Of the six prototypes produced two are retained in the Chinese Aviation Museum collection.

Improving the first generation - J-7M, J-7-III and J-8-II:

J-7M: After Deng's reform and opening-up policies, China was able to acquire more sophisticated technologies from the West and thus could improve earlier designs. In order to boost its export prospects, the Chengdu Aircraft Factory used an English Marconi fire control system to improve the J-7-II design. After the upgrade it was known as the J-7M and featured an increased payload, additional underwing pylons, a head-up-display, a Martin Baker zero-zero ejection seat and strengthened structure. The J-7M was successfully test flown in 1984 and exported to Pakistan and other developing countries.

J-7-III: A major modification to the original J-7 design featuring a new fuselage, an enlarged dorsal fuel tank, an all-weather radar, engine thrust increased from 6,100kg to 6,600kg, enhanced range and speed performance. The design stressed all-weather operational capability, improved low altitude flight performance and air-to-ground strike capability over a decent range - all weaknesses in existing PLAAF fighters exposed in the 1979 conflict with Vietnam. After successful test flights in 1984 the J-7-III began to equip PLAAF units in small numbers. Most sources suggest the J-7-III was not entirely successful being too heavy and losing agility compared to other J-7 variants. Casual observers may mistake the J-7-III for a Russian MiG-21MF (possibly because the J-7-III was derived from a MiG-21MF obtained from Egypt).

J-8-II: A significant improvement over the original J-8-I, the key design breakthrough was moving away from the nose intake to fuselage side intakes, allowing room for a large radar antenna in the nose. The Type-208 radar is reportedly look-down capable and can guide semi-active radar homing AAMs. The J-8-II is powered by two WP-13-II turbojets (each 6600kg thrust) giving it improved low altitude performance and good air-to-ground load carrying ability. Development began in 1980. A prototype successfully flew in 1984, the design was finalised in 1988 and the J-8-II entered PLANAF service in 1992. Despite a long gestation, successful development of the J-8-II was an important milestone for the Chinese aviation industry.

Further improvements to the first generation:

From the late 1980s to the early 1990s, the Chinese aviation industry continued to offer up improvements to the trusted J-7 and J-8 designs.

J-7E/J-7MG: Using the J-7M as a foundation, in the mid-1980s the Chengdu Aircraft Factory made significant modifications to the wing (introducing a double-delta layout) and flaps and installed a large fuel tank in the new wing. Not only did this greatly enhance low altitude agility (by nearly 20% over the J-7 with maximum overload becoming 6.6g at 5000m, Mach 0.9), but also the takeoff run was shortened, and the maximum range was increased by more than 40% (from the original J-7's 1400km to 2200km). The fire control system was also improved through the installation of a pulse doppler radar. Reports indicate that in exercises against the mighty Su-27 Flanker the J-7E more than holds its own in within-visual range dogfighting due to its excellent instantaneous turn performance. The J-7E entered service with the PLAAF and the PLANAF from 1993 and is used by these service's air display teams. The export designation is J/F-7MG and the export model can be fitted with the Italian FIAR-Grifo radar or the Russian Kopyo.

J-8-IIM: Shenyang developed an improved export model of the J-8-II with Russian help after the termination of the Sino-US "Peace Pearl" project in 1989. The main area of improvement was the fire control system: the J-8-IIM uses the Russian Zhuk-8II (FG-8) phased array radar capable of tracking 10 aerial targets and simultaneously engaging two of them with missiles and greatly improved air-to-ground modes. Moreover the air-to-ground weapon carrying ability is greatly increased (to about 5 tonnes) with a wide variety of guided and unguided munitions capable of being carried by the J-8-IIM. The engines are improved variants of the WP-13-II (thrust increased from 6,600kg to 7,000kg). Air-to-air weapons may include the Russian R-77 active homing AAM and the R-73 infrared homing missile. Recent reports suggest PLAAF J-8-IIs may be getting the Zhuk-8II radar and other modifications as well, they are known as J-8-IIH.

J-8-III: Following a request from the PLANAF, Shenyang developed a highly modified J-8-II featuring vastly improved manoeuvrability thanks to a new digital flight control system and improved avionics. The fuselage is shortened by 40cm and small canard foreplanes are added above the air intakes. New WP-13F-II turbojets offer a reported 7960kg thrust each. The fire control system was also modified to meet naval requirements with an improved ability to engage low flying and nautical targets.

A new generation in the 1990s:

J-13: The genesis of the J-13 plan was in 1971 when the 601 Institute began researching a new fighter aircraft for the 1980s to replace the J-6. In early 1974 the PLAAF formally proposed development of a new light fighter to replace the J-6 as the mainstay of the Air Force. As with many Chinese fighter projects, the principal sticking point was the lack of a suitable powerplant for the aircraft. In order to meet a required Mach 2.0 level speed, the original plan was to use one British Spey Mk202 turbofan (with afterburner giving 9,300kg thrust) domestically produced as the WS-9. Because the domestic project failed to work out as planned the powerplant was changed to a 12,200kg thrust WS-6 turbofan (the WS-9 was finally completed in 1980 but its thrust-to-weight ratio was far too low for a single-engine fighter). Preliminary design of the aircraft was completed in the late 1970s and the project was named the J-13. The new aircraft used cantilever wings and fuselage side mounted air intakes - it resembled the French Mirage-F1. Normal takeoff weight was 11660kg. Some reports suggest that in 1978 China obtained a MiG-23MS Flogger-E from Egypt and set about reverse-engineering the R-29 turbojet as the WS-15 (12,500kg wet thrust) for installation on the J-13. In the end none of these projects produced an efficient, reliable, powerful engine. The J-13 design stressed speed, a good rate of climb and was optimised as an interceptor with some ground attack capability. Ceiling was 19,000 metres, sea level rate of climb approximately 260 metres/second, maximum overload +9G, and payload about 4.5 tons. Because of the successful J-8-II project, in the mid-1980s development of the J-13 was delayed and accorded low priority. However, into the late 1980s the project continued although the operational requirements had increased to match the Russian MiG-29 and American F-16 light fighters. In the early 1990s the project was finally abandoned because of the success of the Chengdu J-10 project.

J-10: The Chengdu Aircraft Company has developed since the 1980s a single-engine, single-seat high performance fighter as Project 10. The J-10 design is similar to that of the cancelled Israeli Lavi: close coupled canards and tailless delta wing, a single ventral air intake, a 'bubble' canopy, all-moving canards, two ventral fins under the rear fuselage and a single vertical stabiliser. According to some reports, an early prototype known as the 8810 was completed in 1993 as a virtual clone of the Lavi including an F-100 turbofan engine. But PLAAF requirements had changed following experience with the Su-27 and the 611 Institute carried out a significant redesign in the mid-1990s. This incorporated the Russian AL-31F engine (approximately 120kN) mounted upside-down and altered the air intake and vertical tail. It is reported than an attempt to incorporate thrust-vectoring ran into trouble and was dropped, as well as an attempt to develop an electronically scanned phased array radar (or these may be technologies intended for the next-generation fighter described below). By 1998 development hurdles were overcome and the official first flight took place on 23 March. The J-10 is fitted with a zero-zero ejection seat for the pilot and Chinese helmet-mounted sights and colour multifunction displays. The pulse doppler radar can control radar guided and active homing AAMs and the J-10 may be fitted with Chinese radar absorbent materials. In 2001, Russia announced it would supply 300 AL-31 engines to China for use on 300 J-10s that will begin mass production in 2003. Reports suggest a two-seat/twin-engine naval variant may be under development - possibly for use on a future Chinese aircraft carrier.

FC-1: In response to a requirement from Pakistan the Chengdu Aircraft Company began development of a lightweight multirole fighter for export. Originally based on the Super-7, the FC-1 will probably use the Russian RD-93 turbofan powerplant and a mixture of Russian and Western avionics. Developmental delays have dogged the project and the FC-1 is unlikely to be operational for a number of years. It is uncertain whether the PLAAF will buy the FC-1.

The future:

The Chinese aviation industry is conducting research and development for the next generation of fighter aircraft. According to reports this will include a twin engine, single seat heavy fighter in the 15-tonne class. This Shenyang proposal is similar to the US F-22 Raptor in design arrangement but features canards (at least four different configurations were tried before the definitive New 93 layout was arrived at). Stealth technology is likely to feature prominently in the design (a RCS of about 0.5 square metres has been mentioned) along with thrust vectoring technology (the aircraft is to be more agile than the Su-27) incorporated into a powerplant with greater than 8000kg thrust performance. Thrust-to-weight ratio is expected to be around 1.10-1.15:1 at combat weights. Estimates are that this new generation fighter might enter service around 2015.

A note on sources although much information is from Chinese-language sources, there are three excellent English language resources on the internet: Hui Tong's Chinese Military Aviation (Concentric Dial-Up Internet the Chinese Military Forum (Chinese Military Forum) ; and China-Defense Forum (Welcome to China Defense.com).
 
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Taimi i have a question can the APG-68 v9 be installed onto the JF-17 nose cone? This is just a question for now we forget whether americans will allow it or not.

Well the antenna shape may be a problem for the nose of JF-17, as F-16s nose cone is like oval shaped, while JF-17s is more like round. Rest of the equipment can be installed, enough space is there or can be made as per the size of different equipment.

Here see what's the shape of the APG-68V9.

APG_68(V)9.jpg


20090211130833654.jpg


apg68v9_highres.jpg
 
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Chinese Fighter Development

by Jack Collins

China started developing its own jet fighter aircraft after the end of the Korean War (in which Chinese volunteer pilots flew Russian-built MiG-15 fighters). Over the next five decades China has produced a variety of designs, many of which are largely unknown in the rest of the world. One key deficiency that this survey highlights is the inability of the Chinese to produce a reliable, efficient and powerful powerplant. Even at the beginning of the 21st century, China is reliant on foreign engines for its fighter aircraft.

East Wind Series:

East Wind 104: A "paper airplane" designed at the Shenyang Aircraft Factory under Soviet tutelage. Designed as a Mach 1.4 capable light fighter aircraft for the PLA Air Force (PLAAF).

East Wind 107: An enlarged East Wind 104 developed at the insistence of the aviation industry control section. The design target was for a maximum speed of Mach 1.8 and a service ceiling of 20,000 metres. Included a variable angle of attack design similar to the F-8U Crusader or Soviet Ye-series designs. In 1959 the East Wind 107 was discontinued in favour of the East Wind 113 design.

East Wind 113: At the end of 1959 the Harbin Military Engineering Institute proposed the development of a Mach 2.5 capable fighter with a service ceiling of 25,000 metres. It mainly took the American F-104, F-105 and B-58 as design models. One Type-814 turbojet engine was to power the East Wind 113 and the aircraft carried an airborne intercept radar and a computer. The project was abandoned because of developmental difficulties, and the ready availability of the MiG-21 from the Soviet Union.

J-8 and J-9:

By 1962 the Chinese aviation industry had reverse-engineered the MiG-21 and placed it into production as the J-7. In order to cope with the emerging threat posed by the American F-4 Phantom and U-2 strategic reconnaissance aircraft, the PLAAF in 1964 called for development of a new fighter aircraft with performance surpassing that of the J-7. The request emphasised the need for high-speed performance at high altitudes. In response to the PLAAF's request, the 601 Institute and Shenyang aircraft factory proposed two new technology development plans, namely the J-8 and J-9 plans.

J-8: In 1964, the 601 Institute proposed the J-8 to meet the PLAAF requirement for a high-altitude interceptor. This design took the MiG-21/J-7 and enlarged the fuselage, installed two WP-7B afterburning turbojets but retained the nose intake. The prototype J-8 flew in 1969 and achieved a maximum speed of Mach 2.2 and a ceiling of 20,000 metres. It mounted a 23mm twin-barrel cannon and could carry two underwing PL-2A infrared homing air-to-air missiles. Test flights continued during the Cultural Revolution, but no production could take place. The all-weather advanced version (J-8-I), used an SR-4 airborne intercept radar and increased the missile load to four. The J-8 finally entered service in 1981 (but was still referred to as "an operational testbed aircraft" in the late 1980s). The J-8 was the first independently developed fighter aircraft to enter service with the PLAAF.

J-9: The J-9 project ran in parallel with the J-8 project but used a completely new airframe. The design target maximum speed was Mach 2.4 at above 20,000 metres altitude. In order to achieve this target the J-9 was fitted with an 8,500kg thrust turbojet engine and the 601 Institute initially used a tailless delta design. Development at this point shifted to the newly built 611 Institute and the Chengdu Aircraft Factory. At the beginning of the 1970s, the 611 Institute proposed a new design using a canard ahead of the delta wing (not dissimilar to the Swedish Viggen), but because it required new materials and know-how plus engine performance problems it wasn't until 1975 before the design could be completed. The new J-9 design was quite advanced with air intakes on the fuselage sides featuring variable inlet geometry to alter the compression mixture. It used a 12,400 kg wet thrust turbofan engine and featured a Type 205 radar (search range about 70km) and four PL-4 radar-guided air-to-air missiles. The J-9 plan was discontinued in 1980. However, the effort was not totally wasted as the J-9 development enabled Chinese engineers to gain experience with the canard layout type, experience that would prove useful in the J-10 project.

The original J-12 and J-11:

After the 1967 Middle East War, the PLAAF proposed development of a replacement for the J-6 (MiG-19 Farmer) featuring good low altitude performance, short takeoff and landing run and simplicity. The Shenyang Aircraft Factory and the Nanchang Aircraft Factory proposed respectively the J-11 and the J-12.

(original) J-11: The Shenyang proposal was to be powered by one British Spey-512 afterburning turbofan engine and followed a conventional light fighter design with swept back wings, fuselage-side mounted inlets and a Type 645 or 204 radar. The aircraft's normal total weight was 8,700 kg. At 5,000 metres its climb rate was 197 metres per second. Maximum range was 2,300 kilometres and takeoff distance was less than 500 metres. Weapons consisted of two 30mm cannons and two infrared homing AAMs or two rocket pods or bombs. The original design specified a zero-zero ejection seat for the pilot, but this objective was not achieved. The J-11 was a sophisticated design for its time and achieved the design requirements, but because the British Spey-512 engines were difficult for China to obtain and because the Shenyang factory was ordered to concentrate its energies on the J-8, the J-11 never went further than the blueprint stage.

(original) J-12: Nanchang interpreted the PLAAF request as being for an ultra-lightweight fighter and produced a four-tonne design with a nose intake for its single WP-6 afterburning turbojet. The J-12 project started in 1969 and it only took 17 months for detailed design, wind tunnel tests and the production of three prototypes. After three years of test flights beginning in 1970, Nanchang made a series of revisions to the design to cope with problems including poor engine performance. The redesigned J-12 made 135 test flights, achieving a maximum speed of Mach 1.386 (surpassing the J-6) and showing sprightly acceleration, a takeoff run of less than 500 metres and a ceiling of 17,300 metres (also superior to the J-6). The J-12 was fitted with a 30mm and a 23mm cannon and had provision for up to 3 AAMs. However, in 1978 the PLAAF decided the J-12 was not suitable for the demands of modern air warfare and stopped development. Of the six prototypes produced two are retained in the Chinese Aviation Museum collection.

Improving the first generation - J-7M, J-7-III and J-8-II:

J-7M: After Deng's reform and opening-up policies, China was able to acquire more sophisticated technologies from the West and thus could improve earlier designs. In order to boost its export prospects, the Chengdu Aircraft Factory used an English Marconi fire control system to improve the J-7-II design. After the upgrade it was known as the J-7M and featured an increased payload, additional underwing pylons, a head-up-display, a Martin Baker zero-zero ejection seat and strengthened structure. The J-7M was successfully test flown in 1984 and exported to Pakistan and other developing countries.

J-7-III: A major modification to the original J-7 design featuring a new fuselage, an enlarged dorsal fuel tank, an all-weather radar, engine thrust increased from 6,100kg to 6,600kg, enhanced range and speed performance. The design stressed all-weather operational capability, improved low altitude flight performance and air-to-ground strike capability over a decent range - all weaknesses in existing PLAAF fighters exposed in the 1979 conflict with Vietnam. After successful test flights in 1984 the J-7-III began to equip PLAAF units in small numbers. Most sources suggest the J-7-III was not entirely successful being too heavy and losing agility compared to other J-7 variants. Casual observers may mistake the J-7-III for a Russian MiG-21MF (possibly because the J-7-III was derived from a MiG-21MF obtained from Egypt).

J-8-II: A significant improvement over the original J-8-I, the key design breakthrough was moving away from the nose intake to fuselage side intakes, allowing room for a large radar antenna in the nose. The Type-208 radar is reportedly look-down capable and can guide semi-active radar homing AAMs. The J-8-II is powered by two WP-13-II turbojets (each 6600kg thrust) giving it improved low altitude performance and good air-to-ground load carrying ability. Development began in 1980. A prototype successfully flew in 1984, the design was finalised in 1988 and the J-8-II entered PLANAF service in 1992. Despite a long gestation, successful development of the J-8-II was an important milestone for the Chinese aviation industry.

Further improvements to the first generation:

From the late 1980s to the early 1990s, the Chinese aviation industry continued to offer up improvements to the trusted J-7 and J-8 designs.

J-7E/J-7MG: Using the J-7M as a foundation, in the mid-1980s the Chengdu Aircraft Factory made significant modifications to the wing (introducing a double-delta layout) and flaps and installed a large fuel tank in the new wing. Not only did this greatly enhance low altitude agility (by nearly 20% over the J-7 with maximum overload becoming 6.6g at 5000m, Mach 0.9), but also the takeoff run was shortened, and the maximum range was increased by more than 40% (from the original J-7's 1400km to 2200km). The fire control system was also improved through the installation of a pulse doppler radar. Reports indicate that in exercises against the mighty Su-27 Flanker the J-7E more than holds its own in within-visual range dogfighting due to its excellent instantaneous turn performance. The J-7E entered service with the PLAAF and the PLANAF from 1993 and is used by these service's air display teams. The export designation is J/F-7MG and the export model can be fitted with the Italian FIAR-Grifo radar or the Russian Kopyo.

J-8-IIM: Shenyang developed an improved export model of the J-8-II with Russian help after the termination of the Sino-US "Peace Pearl" project in 1989. The main area of improvement was the fire control system: the J-8-IIM uses the Russian Zhuk-8II (FG-8) phased array radar capable of tracking 10 aerial targets and simultaneously engaging two of them with missiles and greatly improved air-to-ground modes. Moreover the air-to-ground weapon carrying ability is greatly increased (to about 5 tonnes) with a wide variety of guided and unguided munitions capable of being carried by the J-8-IIM. The engines are improved variants of the WP-13-II (thrust increased from 6,600kg to 7,000kg). Air-to-air weapons may include the Russian R-77 active homing AAM and the R-73 infrared homing missile. Recent reports suggest PLAAF J-8-IIs may be getting the Zhuk-8II radar and other modifications as well, they are known as J-8-IIH.

J-8-III: Following a request from the PLANAF, Shenyang developed a highly modified J-8-II featuring vastly improved manoeuvrability thanks to a new digital flight control system and improved avionics. The fuselage is shortened by 40cm and small canard foreplanes are added above the air intakes. New WP-13F-II turbojets offer a reported 7960kg thrust each. The fire control system was also modified to meet naval requirements with an improved ability to engage low flying and nautical targets.

A new generation in the 1990s:

J-13: The genesis of the J-13 plan was in 1971 when the 601 Institute began researching a new fighter aircraft for the 1980s to replace the J-6. In early 1974 the PLAAF formally proposed development of a new light fighter to replace the J-6 as the mainstay of the Air Force. As with many Chinese fighter projects, the principal sticking point was the lack of a suitable powerplant for the aircraft. In order to meet a required Mach 2.0 level speed, the original plan was to use one British Spey Mk202 turbofan (with afterburner giving 9,300kg thrust) domestically produced as the WS-9. Because the domestic project failed to work out as planned the powerplant was changed to a 12,200kg thrust WS-6 turbofan (the WS-9 was finally completed in 1980 but its thrust-to-weight ratio was far too low for a single-engine fighter). Preliminary design of the aircraft was completed in the late 1970s and the project was named the J-13. The new aircraft used cantilever wings and fuselage side mounted air intakes - it resembled the French Mirage-F1. Normal takeoff weight was 11660kg. Some reports suggest that in 1978 China obtained a MiG-23MS Flogger-E from Egypt and set about reverse-engineering the R-29 turbojet as the WS-15 (12,500kg wet thrust) for installation on the J-13. In the end none of these projects produced an efficient, reliable, powerful engine. The J-13 design stressed speed, a good rate of climb and was optimised as an interceptor with some ground attack capability. Ceiling was 19,000 metres, sea level rate of climb approximately 260 metres/second, maximum overload +9G, and payload about 4.5 tons. Because of the successful J-8-II project, in the mid-1980s development of the J-13 was delayed and accorded low priority. However, into the late 1980s the project continued although the operational requirements had increased to match the Russian MiG-29 and American F-16 light fighters. In the early 1990s the project was finally abandoned because of the success of the Chengdu J-10 project.

J-10: The Chengdu Aircraft Company has developed since the 1980s a single-engine, single-seat high performance fighter as Project 10. The J-10 design is similar to that of the cancelled Israeli Lavi: close coupled canards and tailless delta wing, a single ventral air intake, a 'bubble' canopy, all-moving canards, two ventral fins under the rear fuselage and a single vertical stabiliser. According to some reports, an early prototype known as the 8810 was completed in 1993 as a virtual clone of the Lavi including an F-100 turbofan engine. But PLAAF requirements had changed following experience with the Su-27 and the 611 Institute carried out a significant redesign in the mid-1990s. This incorporated the Russian AL-31F engine (approximately 120kN) mounted upside-down and altered the air intake and vertical tail. It is reported than an attempt to incorporate thrust-vectoring ran into trouble and was dropped, as well as an attempt to develop an electronically scanned phased array radar (or these may be technologies intended for the next-generation fighter described below). By 1998 development hurdles were overcome and the official first flight took place on 23 March. The J-10 is fitted with a zero-zero ejection seat for the pilot and Chinese helmet-mounted sights and colour multifunction displays. The pulse doppler radar can control radar guided and active homing AAMs and the J-10 may be fitted with Chinese radar absorbent materials. In 2001, Russia announced it would supply 300 AL-31 engines to China for use on 300 J-10s that will begin mass production in 2003. Reports suggest a two-seat/twin-engine naval variant may be under development - possibly for use on a future Chinese aircraft carrier.

FC-1: In response to a requirement from Pakistan the Chengdu Aircraft Company began development of a lightweight multirole fighter for export. Originally based on the Super-7, the FC-1 will probably use the Russian RD-93 turbofan powerplant and a mixture of Russian and Western avionics. Developmental delays have dogged the project and the FC-1 is unlikely to be operational for a number of years. It is uncertain whether the PLAAF will buy the FC-1.

The future:

The Chinese aviation industry is conducting research and development for the next generation of fighter aircraft. According to reports this will include a twin engine, single seat heavy fighter in the 15-tonne class. This Shenyang proposal is similar to the US F-22 Raptor in design arrangement but features canards (at least four different configurations were tried before the definitive New 93 layout was arrived at). Stealth technology is likely to feature prominently in the design (a RCS of about 0.5 square metres has been mentioned) along with thrust vectoring technology (the aircraft is to be more agile than the Su-27) incorporated into a powerplant with greater than 8000kg thrust performance. Thrust-to-weight ratio is expected to be around 1.10-1.15:1 at combat weights. Estimates are that this new generation fighter might enter service around 2015.

A note on sources although much information is from Chinese-language sources, there are three excellent English language resources on the internet: Hui Tong's Chinese Military Aviation (Concentric Dial-Up Internet the Chinese Military Forum (Chinese Military Forum) ; and China-Defense Forum (Welcome to China Defense.com).

If this is true than this is one hell of a development:china:

Thanks for the useful info Dear sir.
 
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I think the H-4 is BVr becasue it has such a high range

may be pak is nt revealing it because to get Aim 120 and gain much experiance frm that and later develop on your own

reverse engineering is nt a sin we hav to do it too

H-4 is a BVR but Air 2 ground.
 
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Hi,

Sir---I understand what you are saying. What my grudge with the equipment is that the paf neede a true bvr system---we had planes available to us from sweden and france in 2002---if we had played our hand properly---the planes were also available from u s of a in 2002---.

I am crying about our screw ups----the screw ups of the paf---we should have had the first batch of true bvr fighter interceptors in 2003-4 and here we are in 2010 and none in sight except for the blk 52 F 16's. The current batch of JF 17 a dud---.

Bhai Mastan
Yaar you have a way of forgetting facts conveniently.Tell me what is your source that the gripen was available to us in 2002--05.By all accounts it was refused to us on grounds that Sweden does not sell weapons to a zone where there is fear of war. Saab Gripen was never available to us.Secondly please enlighten us as to the french option. Do you want to buy the rafale, when there has been no international sale of the plane confirmed to date? Or are you considering the M2K with its assembly line closed and a high maintenance plane with a lot more investment required with no options for upgrade?
Bhai, PAF has done well with the resource restraints at its hands. People say we have money available but the reality is that we have severe restraints with cash flow.All the reserves that you see today are just a mirage and gloss over just like the past. We are having seroious issues with paying the instalments of the loans that we are already lumbered with and you are hell bent on taking more. You have harped on ad nauseum about the SD10 issue. Who amongst us knows its performance and what is your impresssion about its capabilities, when privately PAF officials have expressed severe reservations about it.Mark my words, PAF will have AMRAMS as its main BVR on all the planes that it can afford to have them on.SD10 will not be bought in the short term till PAF is satisfied with its progress, which may well be soon, but till now not proven.
Lastly the case of integration of BVR. On the F16s, if my memory serves me right, there
were not BVRs till Block 15s!!! So what does this tell you. New equipment integration takes time. As planes go Thunder is yet in its infancy. Give the people responsible for it time to develop it and they are working day and night on the project. By the way the very people who you are mailigning are the ones who will who will go up in the same planes without BVRs to face an enemy equipped with BVRs. It is in their interests to acquire the capability ASAP.
Wa Salam and no heart feelings
Araz
regards
Araz
 
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^^ Gripen was finalised by PAF but left out due to US experience and parts used were owned by US corporations.

@ MK,
If PAF is not performing at your mark just because India excelled with SU30 than i suppose our Navy performed even bad....... in comparison level.

You see Navy is willing to buy U boat but our MOD is not releasing the PO.
Its same with JF-17 from last 3 odd years, and recently the French episode.
 
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