JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[farhan_9909]

H-4 is a BVR but Air 2 ground.

air to ground BVr?

heard about it for the first time

cant we make it for Air to air

we need a indigenous BVR.which can meet our requirements

 

[MastanKhan]

you are too pessimistic,friend.i hope it's because of your limited knowledge about JF-17,JF 17 is a 4th gen jet with good upgrade potential,bvr is one of the important targets being considered when PAF desided to invest money in JF-17 in the later 90' ,JF-17 already have this capability, i can understand why some people feel disappointed about JF-17 ,it connects to early Super-7 program.but if you ever compare these two fighter carefully ,you would know that the changes in JF-17 correspond to "an redesign jet".the forebody strake,the DSI,these techs deserve better words than dud.early batches of JF-17 is to replace A-5 and F-7 as the second-line fighter,PAF wants to know how pilots response to JF-17 and see if there is any part needs to improve.at same time,they can seek western avionics, radar and engine,also china will try her best to catch up and provide PAF multi choices.of course, things can go another way as you wish,pakistan got some JAS-39 or Rafale in 2004( they are all very very good jets), and this forum would be more harmonious as some indians here wouldn't boast their invincible mki all the time,but what's point of that,there is no dominant 4th gen jet in this world.in the war time ,it's the indigenous jet ensure your savty and force the enemy back to table,that's most important value of JF-17,you don't need to concern how much $ in your hands or if western countries are willing to sell ,if it's necessary,you can make JF-17 as many as you want .stick to indigenous weaponry,no matter how rough the road is,it's the best UPS.

Hi,

Sir---the first line of your response is very silly---but that is okay---sometimes you get smacked---sometimes you are the ball---sometimes you are the bat. But don't make it a habbit.

Secondly---the rest of your post has nothing to do with what I am saying.

Let me re-phrase it----JF 17 is a great plane of its own kind---BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE DOCTOR HAD ORDERED---.

When I was young going to school---there was a story in the school book---

A farmer goes to the city doctor with a complain of stomach ache---the doctor asked him what he ate---the farmer stated ' bread'---the doctor asked was it burnt---he replied' yes '---the doctor gave him a prescription for eye glasses so he can see better to not eat the burnt bread---and nothing to cure for the pain----this story was in the curiculum some 45 years ago---.

What is the moral of the story---the farmer is humiliated---he is still suffering the pain----the doctor has a habbit of being sarcastic and insulting rather than being a healer---. If it happened in this day and age---the farmer could get mad at the doctor and shoot him to death---or his family members can beat the living day lights out o the doctor---or the doctor maybe called rascist and arrogant towards lesser able and educated people or called senseless.

Now what these comments have to do with JF 17----maybe something or maybe nothing---.

It is just like your resposne---I am talking about a different issue and you bring out what the jf 17 will do.

I don't need what it will do in the future---I need what it will do as of yesterday----and when I look at the overall picture----it does nothing---it doesnot enhance my inteceptor capabilities.

There is no doubt that it will evlove to be a great plane one day----but my need is not of that of the evolving type---my need is of the instant gratification type.

I have two sqdrn's across the border in kashmir of the type SU 30'ssitting against me---I have 3 plus sqdrn's of MIG 29's across the border at adampur sitting against me---massive strike aircraft force----.

Close to 100 front line air dominance fighters and strike air craft---and what do I have to show for it---a ground attack plane.

Pakistan was in sweden for around two years playing games with the swedes with the grippen---swedes are mad at pakistan for deceiving them after such a long trial---if sanctions were the worries---then why the F 16 blk 52's---why the second order of another 18----why the blk upgrade mlus----why all the weapons purchases from the u s---P 3 c orion's ---oliver hazard----amraam's---harpoons---they are all sanction prone---.

You people still don't get it-----PAF HAD ANAYLYZED THAT THE PAK INDIA THREAT HAD FADED AWAY---SO THERE WAS NO NEED FOR A TRUE BVR CAPABLE FIGHTER INTERCEPTOR KIND OF PLANE---they thought it was a waste of money.

You people are just going on, on a tangent----not realising that it was a failure of assessment due to which we are at this juncture---. It was failure to understand and comprehend the level of threat coming from across the border that has put us in this position.

Aimarraul---just so that you might have missed it somewhere---major weapons systems are supposed to make a statement---a statement of their presence, aggrression and capabilities. Major weapons systems procurements are designed so that the enemy has to stop in its tracks to re-judge and analyze the situation---is it worth fighting for---or---is peace a better solution.

JF 17 doesnot make any statements---i.

We are just like holdng onto the tail of a galloping horse----we are in the race---but being dragged along, scraped, with dirt in your mouth and all over---that is where pakistan didnot want to be.

To say JF 17 would bring the enemy to the peace table is like making myself the laughing stock in front of those from across the border.


As for the senior most position holder on this board----PLEASE WRITE YOUR OWN INPUT FOR ONCE----stop riding piggy back on the articles of other defence journal---put an effort and let us see what you are made up of.


To all the pakistani posters---the way you are fighting with me so hard----if you had fought the air force so hard 7 years ago---I bet you they would have bought the right equipment. Your energies are misguided---it is not me that you need to show your anguish against---

 

[thinkingcap81]

Let me re-phrase it----JF 17 is a great plane of its own kind---BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE DOCTOR HAD ORDERED---.

I don't need what it will do in the future---I need what it will do as of yesterday----and when I look at the overall picture----it does nothing---it doesnot enhance my inteceptor capabilities.

There is no doubt that it will evlove to be a great plane one day----but my need is not of that of the evolving type---my need is of the instant gratification type.

I have two sqdrn's across the border in kashmir of the type SU 30'ssitting against me---I have 3 plus sqdrn's of MIG 29's across the border at adampur sitting against me---massive strike aircraft force----.

Close to 100 front line air dominance fighters and strike air craft---and what do I have to show for it---a ground attack plane.

Pakistan was in sweden for around two years playing games with the swedes with the grippen---swedes are mad at pakistan for deceiving them after such a long trial---if sanctions were the worries---then why the F 16 blk 52's---why the second order of another 18----why the blk upgrade mlus----why all the weapons purchases from the u s---P 3 c orion's ---oliver hazard----amraam's---harpoons---they are all sanction prone---.

You people still don't get it-----PAF HAD ANAYLYZED THAT THE PAK INDIA THREAT HAD FADED AWAY---SO THERE WAS NO NEED FOR A TRUE BVR CAPABLE FIGHTER INTERCEPTOR KIND OF PLANE---they thought it was a waste of money.

To say JF 17 would bring the enemy to the peace table is like making myself the laughing stock in front of those from across the border.

Hi MastanKhanji,

You seem to be fighting a lone battle. What you say is like a breath of fresh air. I wish we had some Indian posters like you who would give a fresh perspective about Indian defense stuff in the manner in which you write.

All said and done, at the expense of some off-topic stuff i'd say that that after the '08 Mumbai terrorist attack India chose to avoid a military confrontation. Different people give different interpretations as to why India chose to behave the way she did. Do you still consider that Indian diplomacy has achieved a lot just because of more offensive present and future military capabilities?

Also could you clarify the bolded & capitalised part?

 

[maverick1977]

Does that mean that JF17 will cross mach 2+ with WS13 ??? and more thrust means more heavy weapons, multiple 2000lbs GPS guide bombs... As of now i am sure JF 17 can carry two MK84s under the wing each and one under belly and 2 sidewinders on its tips...

 

[blain2]

You people still don't get it-----PAF HAD ANAYLYZED THAT THE PAK INDIA THREAT HAD FADED AWAY---SO THERE WAS NO NEED FOR A TRUE BVR CAPABLE FIGHTER INTERCEPTOR KIND OF PLANE---they thought it was a waste of money.

This is news to me. When did this happen? Why did PAF bother to purchase 500 AIM-120s specifically for BVR employment?

The point about Gripen is a straightforward one. PAF has always liked F-16s more than the Gripens. When Gripen was approached, we were under US sanctions that prohibited us from the F-16s and Gripens owing to the use of US origin engines.

Once the sanctions were lifted, PAF had the opportunity to go for its first choice again which was the F-16 so the option was exercised. Swedes were not in a position to be mad at us. They were most probably ticked off at the Americans for holding them back from selling the Gripens, yet in the end the Americans sold their F-16s to us.

To our foreign office, the response from the Swedes was a simple one and it was, we'd love to sell you the Gripens but Americans are not relenting and using their law which restricts transfer of US technology to countries under US sanctions. This is where the Gripen saga ended and this is the real story behind it.

As far as other issues like JF-17 bringing anyone to peace talks etc. is concerned, there is no reason to delve into these issues because an aircraft or a type of tank has never won a war. Its just a tool that I hope we never have to use.

The biggest benefit of the JF-17 program, regardless of how obsolete or out of place some may consider it, is that its a sanction-proof platform with capabilities that are fairly current for our environment. I'd rather have 2 JF-17s that are not prone to sanctions than a fleet of F-16s or Mirage 2000s or Gripens which could be rendered unserviceable once hostilities start (God forbid).

Call me old fashioned, but we should be proud of our poverty and proud of what we have been able to achieve on a shoe-string budget with the help of the Chinese. I appreciate all of the American support as well as their system of training, logistics and weapon systems have helped Pakistan immensely, however PAF's backbone of the future is the JF-17. One multi-role platform which will ease maintenance and logistics greatly.

 

[Peregrine]

Hi
Blain2 has said it all, those who want true BVR capabilities, more stealthy features for JF-17 tend to forget the fact that if JF-17 does go against lets just say MKI's it will all be happening in the Nuclear environment & it changes the whole scenario, i am not trying to show off Pakistani nuclear capabilities but just portraying the fact that having nuclear weapons provide the biggest deterrence of all & those who dream of BVRM engagements between Indian & Pakistani jets in a nuclear environment are living in a fools paradise

 

[razgriz19]

Hi,

Sir---I understand what you are saying. What my grudge with the equipment is that the paf neede a true bvr system---we had planes available to us from sweden and france in 2002---if we had played our hand properly---the planes were also available from u s of a in 2002---.

I am crying about our screw ups----the screw ups of the paf---we should have had the first batch of true bvr fighter interceptors in 2003-4 and here we are in 2010 and none in sight except for the blk 52 F 16's. The current batch of JF 17 a dud---.

i believe it is BVR capable BUT...
the thing is we dont have SD-10 in our hands as for now, and so this is probably the reason we haven't seen any jf-17 equipped with BVR in PAF's service!

 

[was]

jf 17 is like a small bird hwo have to counter big eagles.
i mean c,mon we are going to counter 200+ mki,s, upgraded mig 29s MRCA upgraded mk2s ect. with these planes.
what is the point of having such planes wich are not cpable of handling al these threats.
paf leadership is over optimistic lets be honest about it.

 

[atlantis_cn]

Hi,

Sir---the first line of your response is very silly---but that is okay---sometimes you get smacked---sometimes you are the ball---sometimes you are the bat. But don't make it a habbit.

Secondly---the rest of your post has nothing to do with what I am saying.

Let me re-phrase it----JF 17 is a great plane of its own kind---BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT THE DOCTOR HAD ORDERED---.

When I was young going to school---there was a story in the school book---

A farmer goes to the city doctor with a complain of stomach ache---the doctor asked him what he ate---the farmer stated ' bread'---the doctor asked was it burnt---he replied' yes '---the doctor gave him a prescription for eye glasses so he can see better to not eat the burnt bread---and nothing to cure for the pain----this story was in the curiculum some 45 years ago---.

What is the moral of the story---the farmer is humiliated---he is still suffering the pain----the doctor has a habbit of being sarcastic and insulting rather than being a healer---. If it happened in this day and age---the farmer could get mad at the doctor and shoot him to death---or his family members can beat the living day lights out o the doctor---or the doctor maybe called rascist and arrogant towards lesser able and educated people or called senseless.

Now what these comments have to do with JF 17----maybe something or maybe nothing---.

It is just like your resposne---I am talking about a different issue and you bring out what the jf 17 will do.

I don't need what it will do in the future---I need what it will do as of yesterday----and when I look at the overall picture----it does nothing---it doesnot enhance my inteceptor capabilities.

There is no doubt that it will evlove to be a great plane one day----but my need is not of that of the evolving type---my need is of the instant gratification type.

I have two sqdrn's across the border in kashmir of the type SU 30'ssitting against me---I have 3 plus sqdrn's of MIG 29's across the border at adampur sitting against me---massive strike aircraft force----.

Close to 100 front line air dominance fighters and strike air craft---and what do I have to show for it---a ground attack plane.

Pakistan was in sweden for around two years playing games with the swedes with the grippen---swedes are mad at pakistan for deceiving them after such a long trial---if sanctions were the worries---then why the F 16 blk 52's---why the second order of another 18----why the blk upgrade mlus----why all the weapons purchases from the u s---P 3 c orion's ---oliver hazard----amraam's---harpoons---they are all sanction prone---.

You people still don't get it-----PAF HAD ANAYLYZED THAT THE PAK INDIA THREAT HAD FADED AWAY---SO THERE WAS NO NEED FOR A TRUE BVR CAPABLE FIGHTER INTERCEPTOR KIND OF PLANE---they thought it was a waste of money.

You people are just going on, on a tangent----not realising that it was a failure of assessment due to which we are at this juncture---. It was failure to understand and comprehend the level of threat coming from across the border that has put us in this position.

Aimarraul---just so that you might have missed it somewhere---major weapons systems are supposed to make a statement---a statement of their presence, aggrression and capabilities. Major weapons systems procurements are designed so that the enemy has to stop in its tracks to re-judge and analyze the situation---is it worth fighting for---or---is peace a better solution.

JF 17 doesnot make any statements---i.

We are just like holdng onto the tail of a galloping horse----we are in the race---but being dragged along, scraped, with dirt in your mouth and all over---that is where pakistan didnot want to be.

To say JF 17 would bring the enemy to the peace table is like making myself the laughing stock in front of those from across the border.


As for the senior most position holder on this board----PLEASE WRITE YOUR OWN INPUT FOR ONCE----stop riding piggy back on the articles of other defence journal---put an effort and let us see what you are made up of.


To all the pakistani posters---the way you are fighting with me so hard----if you had fought the air force so hard 7 years ago---I bet you they would have bought the right equipment. Your energies are misguided---it is not me that you need to show your anguish against---

Based on your reply, I think you need to start a new thread and talk these things there because it's quite off topic.

OK, let's be honest with everyone. There are some harsh numbers we need to bear in mind. The GDP(PPP) of India in 2009 is 3,526 billion, Pakistan 439 billion. The growth of India's economy this year is at least 7.4 percent, Pakistan 2.0 percent last year. So it seems to me that it's more and more impossible for Pakistan to catch up with Indian with it's air fleet (or everything else).

In my view, what makes a country strong is not just it's air force but eventually it's economy. The few airplanes PAF missed (if really was the case) 8 years ago is just a trivial stuff. What the country missed in the last decade is what really tragic. So I hope you can stop crying for the past, there is future you need to worry about.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Are we schedualled to be getting 36 JF 17 thunder by 2010 December ?

How is that timeline ? Do you guys think we will get 2 squadrons by 2010 december?

 

[razgriz19]

jf 17 is like a small bird hwo have to counter big eagles.
i mean c,mon we are going to counter 200+ mki,s, upgraded mig 29s MRCA upgraded mk2s ect. with these planes.
what is the point of having such planes wich are not cpable of handling al these threats.
paf leadership is over optimistic lets be honest about it.

but my friend they saved our a$$ many times and gave a hard time to our enemy!

 

[cw2005]

Frankly speaking, I don't believe two nuclear power would go to war. No such thing happened before anyway and I don't foresee it happens in near future. That is exactly why NK goes nuclear because once she has it, no one (USA included) would start a war with her. My personnal thinking is that, China, India, Packistan and other developing countries in the region all face internal threat and problem. JF-17's first sqd assigned to ground attack mission is not a bad idea anyway.

 

[MastanKhan]

This is news to me. When did this happen? Why did PAF bother to purchase 500 AIM-120s specifically for BVR employment?

The point about Gripen is a straightforward one. PAF has always liked F-16s more than the Gripens. When Gripen was approached, we were under US sanctions that prohibited us from the F-16s and Gripens owing to the use of US origin engines.


Hello Blain2,

Thanks for coming to the party. Did they call you for re-inforcement. How have you been? Are you married by now? If so---how is the married life!

The question---why don't you ask that from two of our esteemed retd air force officers. Muradk and pshamim---they can answer better than me.

So they had sanctions on us---did we force the u s to lift the sanctions when they asked for our help----absolutely not----did we put a condition of releasing air bases if the sanctions were removed---no we didnot---. We could have given them two primary bases and for the other 3---we could have put it on the pak citizens---told the americans---my citizens are extremely angry---I can give you so much but not all----why don't you release my F 16's and I will give you some more.

Pakistanis proved to be the worst of the deal makers when it counted the most---paf wasted years checking out the grippen knowing upfront that there were sanctions involved---they could have worked at things a little better to get the sanctions removed---. Swedes were unhappy with the pak putting them together for about two years---that is the reason for no more deals---.

Taking a pro-active approach against the taliban / al qaeda 6 years in advance would have been a better venue.

As for the 500 amraams---we don't have a single one in stock---and the plane still has to show up---now what kinds of restrainst we have in using the amraams---only time will tell.

And again---we are still depending on systems that we are yet to own---come on son---give me a break---is this how the future and destiny of a nation is carved---that the young men of my nation are building palaces of wonder and imaginations---on what is gonna be tomorrow---. It is good to have imagination but to have ones life revolving around whats gonna be---

Your comment about no tank or airplane has won---is so totally out of context to what I have been saying---.that it does not dignify a response

Your comments about the jf 17---are words of emotion---and nothing more---you know they are shallow words---.

The last two paras of your post don't meet upto the calibre of posts that were expected of BLAIN2---.

There is nothing old fashioned about what you are saying----yes the JF 17 is indeed a matter of pride for pakistan---yes it a potent aircraft in its own calibre---and NO IT IS NOT THE SILVER BULLET that we needed---.

You people keep twisting and turning what I have been saying---you read something that goes against your belief---you guys go red in the head and then stop listening to what I am saying.

This plane will never ever reach that stage of threat where the enemy will have to think twice---regardless of whatsoever radar system it has or the electronic warfare system it has---for the reason---the plane is limited by its size---there is no package in the eastern hemisphere which can make this plane an extremely formidable threat against the first line of enemy strike planes.

If china had such a package---they could have already used it on the J 10's---.

Paf is going to face the isareli elctronic systems this time---possibly israeli opertators as well---it is a totally different ball game.

Blain says---no tank or plane has won a war---I never said---that--twisting my words---I said a weapons system must make the adversary think and bring it to the peace table---seems like you want to read what you want to.


NOW YOU GUYS WANT TO SHUT ME UP REAL BAD---- I will give you an oppurtunity---and be honest with yourself.

You say---weapons don't bring peace---I say they do---remember the cold war---I don't think so---the poster in question was in his diapers as were most of you---silly---it were the weapons of equal destruction that ultimately kept war away---.

Almost missed it---the F 16 weapons system stopped a so called attack on pakistani nuclear sites by the indians due to the fear of retaliation---that was in pak news a few days ago---BLAIN2---you are totally wrong in what you stated---

So---here is your vote----if and it is a big big if---pakistan gets a batch of 230 F 15 SILENT EAGLES with all its pomp and glory package---I have 230 so you have one on one agains the su 30 fleet---then you get those fine fine 4 german subs that you had been negotiating for so long---what is the chance of india showing a more peace loving posture----I would say---looking at the past examples---pretty high.

Now on the reverse---what is the chance of pakistan changing its stance from a very defencive and controlled to a very offencive and right in your face kind of aggression---I would say---extremely high.

So tell me otherwise and bring your proof of reasoning to the table.

 

[MastanKhan]

but my friend they saved our a$$ many times and gave a hard time to our enemy!

Sir,

Where and how---who saved our A$$---could you kindly elaborate.

 

[Jazzbot]

to be honest, i see thunder a lot more improved and better fighter in next 5 years or so.. Lots of stuff is to be come and this bird will rock for sure, just have faith and wait for the time, this bird is going to be more mature and improved..