JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 2]

[maximus]

this is a bit strange...

but lca is lighter than the jf-17 and has the same engine power, so its performance must be similar.

however the IAF will not accept it in that configuration and is looking for a better engine.

than why are u guys accepting the jf-17 which has similar performance?

i mean the 1st batch of jf-17 will be the same as the lca in terms of performance but will have inferior avionics (chengdu doesn't make good avionics), while IAI, Rafael, and Elta do, and India has a very advanced tech industry so they also make some good ingenious avionics, but most critical are foreign avionics.

why r u guys accepting an a/c that ur enemy wont accept?

its a bit strange, and has china brought this a/c? or is it just for u guys?

why not get j-10s?

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Read my post http://www.defence.pk/forums/289537-post103.html Comparing a failed LCA with a fully functional JF-17 is an insult. Do some research before making such useless comparisons.

 

[PAFAce]

the f-16 apg radar that u currently have is 80s technology.

They still use ticker tape to program control computers in nuclear power plants. I know because I've work on them. Old usually means outdated, but it also means tried, tested and true. If the PAF thought the old technology was out-of-date, they would be doing something about it. Upgrades, rebuilding and refurbishment are nothing new for us, we have done it in the past.

I find it very funny when Jacks come to this forum and act like they know better than the experienced senior officers of the PAF. There is a reason why you are not a defence analyst or a senior officer in the USAF. It is so much like the guys involved with fantasy football/hockey/basketball in North America. They actually think they know better than the real-world team managers, coaches and players. Jokers.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

this is a bit strange...

but lca is lighter than the jf-17 and has the same engine power, so its performance must be similar.

however the IAF will not accept it in that configuration and is looking for a better engine.

than why are u guys accepting the jf-17 which has similar performance?

i mean the 1st batch of jf-17 will be the same as the lca in terms of performance but will have inferior avionics (chengdu doesn't make good avionics), while IAI, Rafael, and Elta do, and India has a very advanced tech industry so they also make some good ingenious avionics, but most critical are foreign avionics.

why r u guys accepting an a/c that ur enemy wont accept?

its a bit strange, and has china brought this a/c? or is it just for u guys?

why not get j-10s?

Aliph Ahmed: ***********.

As per the latest news dated 6th of June and also mentioned in 25th issue of JDW, 40 LCA are to be inducted by 2016 and none of them will be combat capable as not only their AoA is well below the minimum required by Indian airforce as well as the engine is not powerfull enough to support the 2,000 kg extra weight. With the installation of IN20, LCA will have an extra thrust of only 4.5 kn. Definitely not good enough to support the extra 2,000 kg weight. Afterall, first squadron will be positioned at Tamil Nadu.
and that news should stand in the absence of no post 6 June 2008 news that has either come up with better figures or is any news citing government officials denying or refuting those figures

Link to the report that LCA has gained 2,000 kg of weight date April 20, 2008:

Also the same link that states that LCA will be based at Sulur, Tamil Nadu.

The New Indian Express - Best of South India News, Entertainment, Cricket, Business, Lifestyle

Link to the report that LCA is unable to pull greater then 17 degrees of AoA dated June 06, 2008: Also mentioned in 25th issue of Janes Defence Weekly but one need subscription for it.

Also the same link that states that first 40 will be incapable of combat.

LCA needs new engine to be worthy of combat

Link to the report that 20 LCA will be produced by 2011 and the other 20 by 2016. Therefore 40 by 2016. The article is dated June 16, 2008:

http://news.webindia123.com/news/Art...16/975849.html

This link is an interview of Programme Director (CA) and Director, Aeronautical Development Agency, P.S. Subramanyam dated 12th of July 2008 where he clearly acknowledges the previous links I have posted such as first 40 will not meet the ASR, the aircraft gone heavier, LCA has around 500 flight hours to date, only way to meet the ASR is to go for a new engine and etc etc.

http://www.forceindia.net/interview4.asp


The same interview also states that :

-First 40 will not meet the ASR.
-LCA at present is only pulling 6gs. ASR has been decreased to 8gs from 9g (For the benefit of LCA?)
-No way to meet the ASR unless a different engine other then the IN20 is bought.
-Empty weight of LCA is 6.5 tons now.
-To take it from AoA of 20 upwards, India needs help from outside in consultation or it will require double the flights to do it on her own,thus more delay.
-The new engine will be installed after the first 40 LCAs.


As for JF-17 being under powered, yes but not as much as LCA which can hardly pull more then 17-20 AOA or 5-6 Gs.

 

[Arsalan]

PAF ADA responsibilities will then remain with the F-16s (blk-52s, MLUs) and the FC-20 along with the remaining surviving F-7PGs in service, providing a "potent" ADA force.that is why i believe that the PAF will pick up the option on the 18 F-16 blk 52s after the first 18 are delivered by 2010.

thats what i understood sir, WE WILL BE FLYING THE SURVIVING F7 PGs!!

 

[Arsalan]

Like fatman said.
dear no need for such calulations, IAF will be replacing their 250+ Mig-21 Mig-23 jags with only 126 MRCAs.

but sir do copmpare but the projects, the indians are replacing there Mig-21, Mig 23 and Jagz with far far more superior planes(anyone of the contendar of the MRCA project)

on the other hand, the JF17, though better than our existing F7PGs, A5 and Mirage III,V ROSE but it is not that much superior.

i think its quite unfare to compare the JF17 deal with the MRCA or MKI project, even with the JF17 SUPPORTED BY AWACS

what do you suggest

 

[Arsalan]

I thought we will be procuring 5 Saab Erieye 2000 AEW&C from Sweden and 5 Harbin ZDK-03 AEW& from the People's Republic of China in the coming few years. Did I miss something here?

no you didnt, i was only refering to the system, that is refering that we would be having early warning airborne radars,

sorry if it mislead you.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

One thing is sure that IAF have 3 time more higher standards than PAF.

but you have already assured to be low IQ wikipedia junky! maybe if you take that thick helmet of yours, fresh air will circulate in your head, then you will catch up and realise that not everything is as simple as you think.

 

[mean_bird]

but sir do copmpare but the projects, the indians are replacing there Mig-21, Mig 23 and Jagz with far far more superior planes(anyone of the contendar of the MRCA project)

on the other hand, the JF17, though better than our existing F7PGs, A5 and Mirage III,V ROSE but it is not that much superior.

i think its quite unfare to compare the JF17 deal with the MRCA or MKI project, even with the JF17 SUPPORTED BY AWACS

what do you suggest

Thats because we are procuring what PAF believes to be in line with its strategy of defending the country . I am sure PAF is much more aware of what IAF has (but publicly known or otherwise), what IAF plans to induct and how they can counter it.

We are not having a tit-for-tat purchase but fulfilling our defense requirement.

As for the hi-tech planes, ACM has stated that we will have around 130-150 of them comprising the F-16s and FC-20s and that would fulfill our requirements (with the 1:3 ratio if you compare the 230MKIs and 126 MRCAs).

For other planes in the IAF inventory (Mig29,M2K, Jags, Bis, LCA) our JF-17 will match them or be even better (in later batches). Its cheap, locally produced and can be inducted in large numbers.

As far as the PAK-FA is concerned, well no current aircraft in our inventory or on offer(or in IAFs for that matter) would match it and for that we will need to procure the possible Chinese comparable aircraft. But both PAK-FA and the JXX are something that wont be inducted in the near future (something like a decade ).

 

[iceman2009]

PAFS current order for hitech fighters is

36 J10./fc20 BY 2012

& 62 F16 MLU/52 with option for 18 more F16/52 by 2011



IAF current HITECH fighters are

230 SU30MKI BY 2014

MRCA will only deliver 18 by 2012 THE OTHER 108 will be built in india over 7 years beginning 2013..

Mid tech

PAF 8-10 JF17

WILL INDUCT 50 by 2012 BLOCK 1 = KLJ7 radar chinease avionics

100+ block 2 by 2017 = western radar weapons engine not yet decided

IAF

will upgrade 51 fighters to mirage 2000-5 standard by 2012

& 63 mig29 to SMT standard


LCA = 20 block 1 WITH elta 320 radar & USA GE404IN engine BY 2012

________________________________________________________

 

[fatman17]

Mid tech

PAF 8-10 JF17

WILL INDUCT 50 by 2012 BLOCK 1 = KLJ7 radar chinease avionics

100+ block 2 by 2017 = western radar weapons engine not yet decided

you seem to be very confident of the dates - which are completely incorrect - what is your source please.

 

[IceCold]

but sir do copmpare but the projects, the indians are replacing there Mig-21, Mig 23 and Jagz with far far more superior planes(anyone of the contendar of the MRCA project)

on the other hand, the JF17, though better than our existing F7PGs, A5 and Mirage III,V ROSE but it is not that much superior.

i think its quite unfare to compare the JF17 deal with the MRCA or MKI project, even with the JF17 SUPPORTED BY AWACS

what do you suggest

Dude what is your problem with the JF-17? You seem to be paranoid about it. Tell me what do you know about the JF-17 program other then what you can find on wikipedia that you have started to make comparisons. Have you forgotten that JF-17 will not be the only jet in the PAF inventory, jets like the F-16s mlus and block-52 along with FC-20 will also be present to deal with any possible Indian threat in the future. Moreover apart from reading wikipedia and basing facts on that which can be altered at any time by some one obsessed like you, just wait and watch, let the program get matured and let JF-17 inducted first and then make a comparision. The top brass of PAF isn't stupid that they will put their future in a jet that cannot handle future challenges posed to them by the superior IAF.
Let me tell you this that JF-17 even in its current configuration is better then our block-15 F-16s, what makes you think that the future blocks wont be better then the block-52.Think

 

[IceCold]

One thing is sure that IAF have 3 time more higher standards than PAF.

Really! Are you the chief instructor there for maintaining these so called higher standards. A piece of advice stop making a fool out of yourself by making such comments.

 

[IceCold]

Mid tech

PAF 8-10 JF17

WILL INDUCT 50 by 2012 BLOCK 1 = KLJ7 radar chinease avionics

100+ block 2 by 2017 = western radar weapons engine not yet decided

Are you sure about it being a mid tech? What are the bases on which you came to this conclusion of yours?

 

[Myth_buster_1]

230 SU30MKI BY 2014

i dough it. 18 or 20 max MKI will roll out of HAL per year.

WILL INDUCT 50 by 2012 BLOCK 1 = KLJ7 radar chinease avionics

thats 18 JF-17 per year, till 2011. 25-30 JF-17 from 2012 and on. by 2017 all 250 JF-17 should be operational.

 

[iceman2009]

Regarding MY Point of 50 JF17 inducted by 2012 block 1 i am basing it on the following principles.

IAF are only inducting around 15 su30mki a year. Reason is the cost and time needed to set up pilot training and workshops etc.

IAF is also qouting 7 years to induct 126 mrca = 15 planes a year.

I have alsdo looked at the induction time and delivery of RAFAELS & TYPHOON by RAF & FRENCH AIR FORCE.

After 4 years since FOC was acheived both have barely 40 operational planes..

In addition IF PAF is upgrading JF17 into block 2 & 3 THIS too will take TIME & SERIOUS MONEY.

eg to upgrade IAF MIRAGE2000 to mirage 2000-5 THE FRENCH want $1 billion and it will take 3 years to complete. This includes RC400 & mica wvr upgrade by DASSULT..

IF JF17 is to receive a serious upgrade as above it will take time esp as its a NON FRENCH fighter...

250JF17 BY by 2014 that is some serious money and one quick move from block 1 to 2 or 3 INSIDE 5 YEARS.

but i may be wrong prehaps PAF can induct fighters far quicker then india UK & FRANCE. ???????//