JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 2]

[hasang20]

I am curious that till to time i have not heard that whether JF17 fired the SD10 (BVR missile)or not and if it did than what was the result

JF-17 has BVR capabilities and can fire SD10

 

[Myth_buster_1]

hey guys havent you realised? we have a wikipeedia troll in this forum!
listen asif. dont act so uneducated!

- only first 50 JF-17 batch will be equiped with (KLJ-10 range: 100+ km) (Armament: SD-10 BVR AAM and AIM-9) (Engine: RD-93). by 2011 we should have 50 combat ready JF-17s. NOTICE: THIS IS NOT FINAL CONFIGUREATION OF JF-17!
PAF is currently negosiating with France for JF-17 systems such as avionics, radar, engine, and armament.
- next 100 JF-17 batch will hopefully be equiped with French radar (RC-400 Range: 150-200km) (Engine: M-52/WS-10, this should give new JF-17 block additional THRUST) (Armament: MICA IR-EM, 5th generation A-Darter/Aim-134, H-2,H-4 long range glide bombs, Raad Cruise missile,) most probibly a korean ALQ-200k jammer pod will be opted.
- last 100 batch should be a new air frame like many think tanks have indicated, this should have new features such as more composite body, twin ruders, AESA radar, etc.

 

[Arsalan]

PAFs will always be working on a much smaller budget to say IAF or PLAAF

Inaddition i THINK politically Pakistan feels very vulnerable to sanctions especially the USA having suffered the F16 saga in the 1990s

They have over 150 old mirage 3/5 that need replacing.

Theres no way PAF could buy 150 mirage2000 or rafael at the huge french prices.

JF17 overcomes those issues above.

Low cost, sanction proof, quicker replacement of those miragess

AND TOT of a modern jet fighter.

JF17 block 1 will sit just below F16/52 in tech. and be too good for indian bisons and a match for mig29smt upgrades.

How ever i feel block 1 will fall short of mirage2000-5 upgrades

The SU30MKI is a different level alltogether.

agreed!!


the Jf 17 may prove good enough for the Mirages with support ot the AWACS but its for the MKI we have to look upon other options. may be the FC20 do the job!!

 

[Owais]

I am glad you asked for links.

I am really sorry if you dont like it.
but the range of radar is 75 km
Speed it says 1.8 Mach on wikipedia (Which is lest reliable source of information) But it is 1.6 Mach according to other reliable resources.
It has not good g-Limits. Thrust/Weight = 0.95 Which is BAD

Here are Links:
KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics
MILAVIA Aircraft - Chengdu FC-1/JF-17 Thunder Specifications
Diecast Aircraft Models : JF-17 Thunder China Air Force 1:48 Scale FC-1
The JF-17 Project “JF-17:Enter the Thunder” - NaiTazi.com
JF-17.com : Avionics
JF-17.com : Specifications

Now lets talk about Mig 29 SMT

India's Mig 29SMT are equipped with additional Indian/Israeli/French equipment, plus new version of Zhuk ME radar (Range 120 Km), new Mission computers, airframe overhaul, new EW fit, new engines etc. The aircraft is equipped with in-flight refuelling system.
Speed is Mach 2.25, Thrust/Weight = 1.13


JF-17 can be equipped with PL9c, SD 10 or Darter on the other hand India's Mig 29 will be equipped AA-11 Archer, AIM-9p and with the extremely lethal Israeli Python 4 and 5.

I don't know why you asked but there is no comparison between JF17 and Mig 29.
Mig 29SMT is 4.5 Gen while JF 17 is 3rd Gen fighter.

I can really keep going on. But now can you give me some specs why do you think Jf 17 is batter than Mig29SMT?



- RAC MiG
Zhuk-ME
- MiG-29SMT, upgraded MiG-29UB aircraft

its 75km against target of RCS 3m2 and mig29 have RCS of 5m2 so KLJ7 has the range of 125km against a super duper MIG29 SMT.

again I want you to so some research. the speed was mach 1.6 before redesigning the airframe. after redesign of airframe (Induction of DSI) further improve subsonic and supersonic performance of the plane. the only valid point you make is its TWr is lower than Mig29. so kindly for your information, JF17 will be further improved with RC400 radar, MICA and a western engine.
but you can't say that low twr makes it less maneuverable than MIg29. may be you didn't see the turn rate comparison of F16 & JF17(proto type).

and please stop trolling that JF17 is a 3rd generation jet. it shows that you have no knowledge about it. Chinese classify jets a generation behind western classification. they classify J10, J11, SU30MKK and JF17 in 3rd generation. see link.
Fighters Ground Attack - SinoDefence.com


and I never said that JF17 is better than mig29 but mig29 and JF17 are from same generation having different roles. currently JF17 is designed for ADF/LWF whereas mig29 is for Air superiority/Multirole.

 

[Arsalan]

here is a comparison between the JF17 and the Rafale Jets. It may seem a bi stupis is is based on true specs of Both the aircrafts. it also gives us a view how the JF17 will be replacing the mirages. remember the mirage are somewhat inferior to the rafale!!

now here are a few facts

Specs-------------------Rafale------------------------Jf 17
Speed----------------------Mach 1.8---------------------Mach 1.8
Combat Radius-----------1,852+ km------------------1,352 km
Service Ceiling-----------16,800 m -------------------16,700 m
Thrust/Weight------------1.13----------------------------0.95
Dry thrust-----------------50.04 kN (11,250 lbf)-------49.4 kN
Thrust with afterburner----75.62 kN-------------------81.4 kN

Now there is no major difference until now, the greater thrust to weight ratio is due to twin engines of rafale, but the speed is same so no big difference in speed. The other part which the t/w will affect is rate of climb and maneuverability but both of them are not very important or at least are not the most important factors.

As far as avionics are concerned, the French systems are contenders for the JF17 avionic project so can get equivalently good avionics.

Further more the JF17z first batch is being produced. Later on we may see an increase in its T/W ratio by increasing the use of avionics. and last but not the least, JF17 is a home made plane and is very very cheaper as compared to Rafale with JF17 costing about 15 million$ and the rafale about 50$ per piece. To add on the JF 17 is slightly smaller in size, so less detectable, also have DSI intakes so this add to its Stealth feature.

 

[Arsalan]

hi asif, talking about comparison here is one from me!!

hello members,here is a comparison between the JF17 and the Rafale Jets. It may seem a bit stupid but it is based on true specs of Both the aircrafts. it also gives us a view how the JF17 will be replacing the mirages. remember the mirage are somewhat inferior to the rafale!!

now here are a few facts

Specs-------------------Rafale------------------------Jf 17
Speed----------------------Mach 1.8---------------------Mach 1.8
Combat Radius-----------1,852+ km------------------1,352 km
Service Ceiling-----------16,800 m -------------------16,700 m
Thrust/Weight------------1.13----------------------------0.95
Dry thrust-----------------50.04 kN (11,250 lbf)-------49.4 kN
Thrust with afterburner----75.62 kN-------------------81.4 kN

Now there is no major difference until now, the greater thrust to weight ratio is due to twin engines of rafale, but the speed is same so no big difference in speed. The other part which the t/w will affect is rate of climb and maneuverability but both of them are not very important or at least are not the most important factors.

As far as avionics are concerned, the French systems are contenders for the JF17 avionic project so can get equivalently good avionics.

Further more the JF17z first batch is being produced. Later on we may see an increase in its T/W ratio by increasing the use of avionics. and last but not the least, JF17 is a home made plane and is very very cheaper as compared to Rafale with JF17 costing about 15 million$ and the rafale about 50$ per piece. To add on the JF 17 is slightly smaller in size, so less detectable, also have DSI intakes so this add to its Stealth feature.

 

[hj786]

Yes later block of JF-17 will have AESA Radar , current JF-17 batch has the Chinese Avionics .

We are not sure what later batches of JF-17 will have, all we know is AESA radar is being CONSIDERED. I will change my mind if you show me a link where Air Chief or any insider has said that JF-17 will certainly get AESA radar - until then, we are not sure.

also chinese engines for next batch will be mach 2.0...

Bro we don't know if later engines will let JF-17 hit Mach 2 or not. We don't know these details yet and we won't know until JF is tested with the new engine. More importantly, why does JF need to hit mach 2? It is much more important that it can supercruise, or come close to supercruising.

(Engine: M-52/WS-10, this should give new JF-17 block additional THRUST)

Bro, JF will not be getting WS-10, this engine is for flankers and J-10, it is too big for JF. JF will get WS-13 and perhaps Snecma M88 (maybe M53, but I don't think so since this does not have much thrust improvement over RD-93, it might even be worse) if PAF decide they need a better engine than WS-13.
You should also know that M52 is not a jet engine. It is a BMW engine for cars! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M52

Thrust/Weight = 0.95 Which is BAD

You just proved you don't know anything about fighter jets. Did you know Mirage 2000C has a Thrust/Weight of 0.93? 0.95 is fine for now and it will be increased soon. You should also know that 0.95 is not the true figure, the actual TWR is much higher. Same for J-10, it's TWR is stated as 0.98, yet it can go vertical after only a short take off with no afterburner.

Now lets talk about Mig 29 SMT
The aircraft is equipped with in-flight refuelling system.

Apart from the first 12 aircraft, so will JF-17. JF-17 refuelling probe - Google Image Search The first picture on the left is JF's refuelling probe.

JF-17 can be equipped with PL9c, SD 10 or Darter on the other hand India's Mig 29 will be equipped AA-11 Archer, AIM-9p and with the extremely lethal Israeli Python 4 and 5.

InAF Mig-29 will be equipped with AIM-9P? LMAO. You really don't know anything about this, do you? The South-African A-darter is comparable to Python 5 in case you didn't know. Even if PAF doesn't get A-darter, it will get the Chinese PL-ASR which is very similar to A-darter.

I don't know why you asked but there is no comparison between JF17 and Mig 29.
Mig 29SMT is 4.5 Gen while JF 17 is 3rd Gen fighter.

Only in your dreams. Yes there is a comparison, JF is a 4th gen fighter - arguably a very basic 4th gen, but a 4th gen none-the-less. If you think JF is a 3rd gen fighter, prove it or keep your thoughts to yourself.
Also, the JF-17 is pretty much designed to take on stuff like the Mig-29 and SU-30 for half the cost, so I don't see why people are dismissing it when they don't know anything about it.

Iceman, I dunno why you keep thinking your MKI is in another league compared to JF. They are both in the 4th generation of fighter design, therefore they are in the same league. For SU-30 to be in another league it would need to be a 5th gen stealth fighter, which it isn't, or JF would need to be 2nd/3rd gen junk - it isn't.

 

[iceman2009]

In reply to HJ786..

JF17 in it current format ie the first 50 or so models I don,t believe that this plane has the Radar,, combination of WVR/ BVR missles, or the RANGE OF electronic warefare/jammer suites to match the heavey SU30MKI.

IF THE JF17 was able to live with and survive regularly with SU30MKI i don,t think the PAF would be considering J10

A LOT of FORUM posters have agreed that large nos of FC20 will be needed to tackle SU30MKI.. & (MRCA if this happens.)

AS FOR future upgrades THIS IS TOO FAR AWAY and just speclation...

If JF17 was already at near SU30MKI level i doubt we would be talking french radar french engine french missles.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Bro, JF will not be getting WS-10, this engine is for flankers and J-10, it is too big for JF. JF will get WS-13 and perhaps Snecma M88 (maybe M53, but I don't think so since this does not have much thrust improvement over RD-93, it might even be worse) if PAF decide they need a better engine than WS-13.
You should also know that M52 is not a jet engine. It is a BMW engine for cars! BMW M52 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

.

oh yaar. i meant to say WS-13 and M-2k engine M53. i know i know

btw what makes you believe that M53 does not have enough thrust?
22,000 thrust with after burner will be just fine for the next 100 batch. how ever the last batch the advance JF-17 or the twin ruder that we like to call should have even a more powerful engine!

 

[Tempest II]

its 75km against target of RCS 3m2 and mig29 have RCS of 5m2 so KLJ7 has the range of 125km against a super duper MIG29 SMT.

I think the KLJ-7 will have a range of 83km for a 5 square meter target!

 

[mean_bird]

I am glad you asked for links.

I am really sorry if you dont like it.
but the range of radar is 75 km
Speed it says 1.8 Mach on wikipedia (Which is lest reliable source of information) But it is 1.6 Mach according to other reliable resources.
It has not good g-Limits. Thrust/Weight = 0.95 Which is BAD

Here are Links:
KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics
MILAVIA Aircraft - Chengdu FC-1/JF-17 Thunder Specifications
Diecast Aircraft Models : JF-17 Thunder China Air Force 1:48 Scale FC-1
The JF-17 Project “JF-17:Enter the Thunder” - NaiTazi.com
JF-17.com : Avionics
JF-17.com : Specifications

So now NaiTazi.com has become a reliable source?

Check some good sources like sinodefence, pakdef,janes, etc for your sources not some NaiTazi.com lol


And whats your obsession with speed? do you think a faster jet makes it much better?
Even the super hornet has a speed of maximum mach 1.8 so by your criteria the Mig29 are better than a super hornet?
Source: Boeing: Integrated Defense Systems - Logistics Support Systems - F/A-18 - F/A-18 Home

Planes have different speed at low and high altitudes hence JF-17s speed of mach 1.6~1.8.


Regarding the radar I have already provided a link in the other thread about the KLJ-10 radar.

Now lets talk about Mig 29 SMT

India's Mig 29SMT are equipped with additional Indian/Israeli/French equipment, plus new version of Zhuk ME radar (Range 120 Km), new Mission computers, airframe overhaul, new EW fit, new engines etc. The aircraft is equipped with in-flight refuelling system.
Speed is Mach 2.25, Thrust/Weight = 1.13

hahahaha
So Mig 29SMT having an "airframe overhaul" is a "feature" but JF-17s having brand new airframe is not a feature in your opinion. JF-17s have all the items bolded and new not just overhauled. JF-17 is also capable of in-flight refuelling so whats the point?

JF-17 has some pretty good EW, mission computer, etc. Also the RD-93 is an improved version of the RD-33 used in the Mig29.

Btw, did you know that the speed of the MIG29SMT is mach 1.5 at lower altitude?

Of all the points you have mentioned only teh TWR is valid and everyone here has acknowledged that. Thats why PAF is looking at a new engine.

Of the currently known facts of the JF-17 (and its the very initial stage of JF-17), it was DSI making it stealthier and less detectable, 7 hardpoints (and will have additional ones in due time)

Mig 29SMT is 4.5 Gen while JF 17 is 3rd Gen fighter.

most stupid thing perhaps in this entire thread.

 

[Tempest II]

Regarding the radar I have already provided a link in the other thread about the KLJ-10 radar.

The link you provided ( JF-17 Thunder (FC-1 Fierce Dragon) Multirole Fighter | AVIATION FANS ) says 125km against 3 square meter RCS. However this the the official release from NRIET and is says 75km against 3 square meter RCS.



I know there is speculation/confussion (I have not seen any official confirmation) that KLJ-10 and KLJ-7 might be the same radar ...??? ... Why the two designations? See here Chinese Military Aviation and here KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics .

What I am also saying is, 75km for 3 sqm does not give you 125km for 5 sqm as per Owais's post!

 

[mean_bird]

The link you provided ( JF-17 Thunder (FC-1 Fierce Dragon) Multirole Fighter | AVIATION FANS ) says 125km against 3 square meter RCS. However this the the official release from NRIET and is says 75km against 3 square meter RCS.

I know there is speculation/confussion (I have not seen any official confirmation) that KLJ-10 and KLJ-7 might be the same radar ...??? ... Why the two designations? See here Chinese Military Aviation and here KLJ-7/10 Fire Control Radar (FCR) (China) - Jane's Avionics .

What I am also saying is, 75km for 3 sqm does not give you 125km for 5 sqm as per Owais's post!

Even the reference you are quoting (and that too dated from 2007) is saying that:

"3. JF-17's radar had a baseline requirement of 75 km detection range in front hemisphere and 45 km in the rear hemisphere. (and the export version to PAF has supposedly exceeded that). The actual performance is still under trial."

Its unclear which is the radar being supplied to PAF. Remember, normal JF-17/FC-1 aircraft vs PAF JF-17 will have different configurations and historically (F-7s) the PAF always have the best. So even if it is the KLJ-7 mentioned, that according to the source the PAF version exceeds 75km. Personally, I think the radar for JF-17 would be a derivative of the J-10.

 

[Arsalan]

Orignally Posted By HJ786

Bro, JF will not be getting WS-10, this engine is for flankers and J-10, it is too big for JF. JF will get WS-13 and perhaps Snecma M88 (maybe M53, but I don't think so since this does not have much thrust improvement over RD-93, it might even be worse) if PAF decide they need a better engine than WS-13.
You should also know that M52 is not a jet engine. It is a BMW engine for cars! BMW M52 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

well i have not much knowledge about the WS13 but, the M88, itss of no good. it is just quite similar to the RD that we are currently using.

the M88:
Thrust:
11,250 lbf (50.04 kN) military thrust
17,000 lbf (75.62 kN) with afterburner
Fuel consumption: dry 0.80 kg/(daN·h)
Thrust-to-weight ratio: approx. 8.5:1

the RD93
Thrust
5,098 kgf (50.0 kN, 11,230 lbf) military thrust
8,300 kgf (81.3 kN, 18,285 lbf) with afterburner
Fuel consumption
7.5 kg/(kN·h) (0.77 lb/(lbf·h)) military thrust
20.1 kg/(kN·h) (2.05 lb/(lbf·h)) with afterburner
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 7.9:1

two M88z are used to power a Rafale jet and i have already given the comparision on Performance specs of JF17 and rafale.

 

[Quwa]

Snecma would develop a version of M88 with higher thrust if PAF requested it in the requirements. For the French it is a vital share in a potentially large export market that begins with PAF's 250 and could extend beyond 1000 produced units. The M88 is also a lighter engine than RD-33; it is also more effecient and maintenance friendly. License production of the M88 would be gold as it could be used on our potential 5th generation fighter and UAV/UCAV systems.