JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[Riz]

No, it only shows that you are a liar and even after proving that you were wrong, you were no saying "I'm sorry, I was wrong" but instead you started another round of stupid comments in the Y-20 section (@Beast can tell a story too). So after being warned and still not stopping with the BS, I gave you a negative rating.

So, maybe you learn for the next time to be a man and stand for what you've done and posted and in the end all that mess only shows, you have no spine. Get mature, learn and then come back.

Stop arguing with a teen and that too belongs to a patwari family

 

[SQ8]

I am not a liar. I forget it. Memory problem. i do accept j-10c mistake but i have said nothing on engines.

I take medicines. I don't remember everything but i have made a mistake and openly accepting it. Still Pakistan has right to select best jet. We are talking about Jet for PAF. I don't like maintenance record of j-10. Ok i said j-10. it's also medium weight. we need heavy weight.

@waz

What has you believing that the PAF would not have gone through a selection process that would look at any of these issues.
Even if the J-10C was the ONLY choice the PAF would go through its checklist and the engine QA would be one of it.
Are you aware of the safety record of F-6 , J-7 or Q-5 with the PLAAF vs the PAF? ( @Deino this isn’t an indictment of the PLAAF but the evolution of where the engine technology, mitigation and standards have come from where they were)

F-6s were considered throwaway aircraft when they first landed - 300 hours and done - no rebuilds. The oldest one was 2000 hours in when the PAF finally retired it. Maintenance and procedures made the difference.

A Pakistani F-16 was lost because the technician used a Mirage part in it to cut corners. So the otherwise very reliable F-100 caught fire mid flight. Maintenance and procedures made the difference.

Yes, China is a stone wall but Pakistan is one of the few(perhaps only) that has an eye inside its R&D and whispered things to by their Chinese counterparts which they would otherwise never disclose out of fear of losing the customer. The flipside of that is that when such input is provided the Pakistani side almost always responds with “Here is what we have heard X does to mitigate this” or at the least “Let us ask around for any workarounds”.

Coming to the J-10 specifically - are you aware of how many F-14s were lost to compressor stalls? And US was never under embargo for engine technology and yet we struggled.

Yes, there were design issues with the original J-10 and those were highlighted by the PAF with multiple changes before the original FC-20 spec was provided of which many suggestions were taken by CAC to the J-10B but at that time PAF had no funds available to divert. Today, the a revised Air Staff requirement asked for additional changes to the J-10C which will take their time to implement and get the PAF’s approval.
To reiterate, a different Air Staff requirement doesn’t make the PAF J-10C(if and when it arrives) superior to the PLAAF because the their(PLAAF) Air staff requirements are wholly different in terms of their primary adversary.

 

[KaiserX]

What has you believing that the PAF would not have gone through a selection process that would look at any of these issues.
Even if the J-10C was the ONLY choice the PAF would go through its checklist and the engine QA would be one of it.
Are you aware of the safety record of F-6 , J-7 or Q-5 with the PLAAF vs the PAF? ( @Deino this isn’t an indictment of the PLAAF but the evolution of where the engine technology, mitigation and standards have come from where they were)

F-6s were considered throwaway aircraft when they first landed - 300 hours and done - no rebuilds. The oldest one was 2000 hours in when the PAF finally retired it. Maintenance and procedures made the difference.

A Pakistani F-16 was lost because the technician used a Mirage part in it to cut corners. So the otherwise very reliable F-100 caught fire mid flight. Maintenance and procedures made the difference.

Yes, China is a stone wall but Pakistan is one of the few(perhaps only) that has an eye inside its R&D and whispered things to by their Chinese counterparts which they would otherwise never disclose out of fear of losing the customer. The flipside of that is that when such input is provided the Pakistani side almost always responds with “Here is what we have heard X does to mitigate this” or at the least “Let us ask around for any workarounds”.

Coming to the J-10 specifically - are you aware of how many F-14s were lost to compressor stalls? And US was never under embargo for engine technology and yet we struggled.

Yes, there were design issues with the original J-10 and those were highlighted by the PAF with multiple changes before the original FC-20 spec was provided of which many suggestions were taken by CAC to the J-10B but at that time PAF had no funds available to divert. Today, the a revised Air Staff requirement asked for additional changes to the J-10C which will take their time to implement and get the PAF’s approval.
To reiterate, a different Air Staff requirement doesn’t make the PAF J-10C(if and when it arrives) superior to the PLAAF because the their(PLAAF) Air staff requirements are wholly different in terms of their primary adversary.

Couldnt have said it any better.

 

[PakCan]

What were the changes that PAF requested on J-10c?

 

[araz]

yes i did. i have problem with my memory but i never made fun of your jet. Actually all i want from airforce is to select best. Now you gave me negative rating. This shows how bad it feels to you. You guys don't want anything against your machines but China has lost many jets of different types. I know you are doing marketing but everyone has the right to express themselves. Negative rating means more cry. hahaha. Yes i said j-10c. it's a mistake but i never said anything about engines or other stuff.

Saying a person from a country who caused 5million deaths worldwide. lol

You got a negative rating for downright lying to prove your point and being obnoxious. Now settle down and try and learn somethings. By the way know who you are talking to. @Deino is German national so has no nationalistic intentions to favour Chinese jets. The fact remains that the Chinese have come leaps and bounds in aviation technology. Although they possibly still cannot match the US but then the rest of the world is-behind the US as well.
The problem is Pakistan at the current moment cannot get US aircrafts.
So whether we like the F16 or any other F it ain't happening. The only pragmatic choice is the Chinese aircrafts if at all we need them.

 

[Arsalan345]

What has you believing that the PAF would not have gone through a selection process that would look at any of these issues.
Even if the J-10C was the ONLY choice the PAF would go through its checklist and the engine QA would be one of it.
Are you aware of the safety record of F-6 , J-7 or Q-5 with the PLAAF vs the PAF? ( @Deino this isn’t an indictment of the PLAAF but the evolution of where the engine technology, mitigation and standards have come from where they were)

F-6s were considered throwaway aircraft when they first landed - 300 hours and done - no rebuilds. The oldest one was 2000 hours in when the PAF finally retired it. Maintenance and procedures made the difference.

A Pakistani F-16 was lost because the technician used a Mirage part in it to cut corners. So the otherwise very reliable F-100 caught fire mid flight. Maintenance and procedures made the difference.

Yes, China is a stone wall but Pakistan is one of the few(perhaps only) that has an eye inside its R&D and whispered things to by their Chinese counterparts which they would otherwise never disclose out of fear of losing the customer. The flipside of that is that when such input is provided the Pakistani side almost always responds with “Here is what we have heard X does to mitigate this” or at the least “Let us ask around for any workarounds”.

Coming to the J-10 specifically - are you aware of how many F-14s were lost to compressor stalls? And US was never under embargo for engine technology and yet we struggled.

Yes, there were design issues with the original J-10 and those were highlighted by the PAF with multiple changes before the original FC-20 spec was provided of which many suggestions were taken by CAC to the J-10B but at that time PAF had no funds available to divert. Today, the a revised Air Staff requirement asked for additional changes to the J-10C which will take their time to implement and get the PAF’s approval.
To reiterate, a different Air Staff requirement doesn’t make the PAF J-10C(if and when it arrives) superior to the PLAAF because the their(PLAAF) Air staff requirements are wholly different in terms of their primary adversary.

I agree and i didn't say anything on engines. Actually i know nothing about engines. They are giving me negative ratings. First deino, now Araz. Actually i don't want PAF to induct j-10c. I know it sounds crazy but i believe we will achieve everything in block-3 and there is no point to induct j-10c. Anyway it's the choice of PAF. They understand much better than common people. All i want is something on our side that can assist f-16s on offensive operations. I want something that brings fear in our enemy heart. India still fears F-16s. I want similar platform. I know we don't have funds. If i have to select a fighter from Chinese inventory, I would select j-31 or j-35. If you ask me about western systems, i would recommend F-16s or probably F-15s. Everything is possible. Our relations with United states is the reason of no new f-16s but i believe we can still get second hand f-16s.

You got a negative rating for downright lying to prove your point and being obnoxious. Now settle down and try and learn somethings. By the way know who you are talking to. @Deino is German national so has no nationalistic intentions to favour Chinese jets. The fact remains that the Chinese have come leaps and bounds in aviation technology. Although they possibly still cannot match the US but then the rest of the world is-behind the US as well.
The problem is Pakistan at the current moment cannot get US aircrafts.
So whether we like the F16 or any other F it ain't happening. The only pragmatic choice is the Chinese aircrafts if at all we need them.

I know him. I have seen his twitter several times. I don't want to disrespect anyone. i accepted my mistake but i never said anything on engines. Which chinese aircraft do you want? I see no point of inducting j-10c. Why not j-31?

Stop arguing with a teen and that too belongs to a patwari family

i am not a patwari. anyway you had the chance of personal attack so you did it. I don't mind. We are discussing a very serious topic here.

 

[Arsalan345]

you, if bharati can, but no one will/can sell a 2nd hand machine to Pakistan without the consent of the Americans

I know. This is why i want someone in our state to talk to united states. Rafales are very modern jets. They will get them in huge numbers. we should think about offensive roles. We did these type of operations in the past. We should think aggressively.

 

[SQ8]

I agree and i didn't say anything on engines. Actually i know nothing about engines. They are giving me negative ratings. First deino, now Araz. Actually i don't want PAF to induct j-10c. I know it sounds crazy but i believe we will achieve everything in block-3 and there is no point to induct j-10c. Anyway it's the choice of PAF. They understand much better than common people. All i want is something on our side that can assist f-16s on offensive operations. I want something that brings fear in our enemy heart. India still fears F-16s. I want similar platform. I know we don't have funds. If i have to select a fighter from Chinese inventory, I would select j-31 or j-35. If you ask me about western systems, i would recommend F-16s or probably F-15s. Everything is possible. Our relations with United states is the reason of no new f-16s but i believe we can still get second hand f-16s.

I know him. I have seen his twitter several times. I don't want to disrespect anyone. i accepted my mistake but i never said anything on engines. Which chinese aircraft do you want? I see no point of inducting j-10c. Why not j-31?

i am not a patwari. anyway you had the chance of personal attack so you did it. I don't mind. We are discussing a very serious topic here.

Ok - forget about negative ratings and others.
Convince me on a technical basis why you believe the bold to be true?

What is the performance of both aircraft?
Range - payload
Avionics performance - Radar, EW , power output from engine

Price -
Cost to modify block-3 current configuration to match J-10 in all aspects
Cost to produce said block-3 and time to induction (time cost)

If you have good arguments backed up by publicly available sources for it there is no reason why @Deino or @araz would not be receptive

 

[Bilal.]

Today, the a revised Air Staff requirement asked for additional changes to the J-10C which will take their time to implement and get the PAF’s approval.

So if multiple members pointing to an induction by Q1 2022 are to be believed. These jets will not come with the additional changes requested by PAF?

 

[Pandora]

I would request mods to clean up this thread. Over past few days certain people are polluting it with their nonsense. It is important that only fact based discussions are allowed in this thread rather than encouraging such people. You can bet this guy will vanish in few days or weeks and some very good discussion will get burried in his garbage.

 

[SQ8]

So if multiple members pointing to an induction by Q1 2022 are to be believed. These jets will not come with the additional changes requested by PAF?

We dont know that yet.
Changes can be both hardware or software. Perhaps the PAF prefers having the platform and pilots training on it with the CCS tactics div. starting to work on how to integrate it into the warfighting matrix and then updates to EW systems and additional weapons can be added as further software updates as it goes. After all the MLU for the vipers is constantly updated with tapes that add additional capabilities. At the same time it is possible that most of the customization has been incorporated and perhaps the HMD was left out as the PAF wants a different vendor and waiting for that to be available.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Very subtle, but when did you change sides?

What has you believing that the PAF would not have gone through a selection process that would look at any of these issues.
Even if the J-10C was the ONLY choice the PAF would go through its checklist and the engine QA would be one of it.
Are you aware of the safety record of F-6 , J-7 or Q-5 with the PLAAF vs the PAF? ( @Deino this isn’t an indictment of the PLAAF but the evolution of where the engine technology, mitigation and standards have come from where they were)

F-6s were considered throwaway aircraft when they first landed - 300 hours and done - no rebuilds. The oldest one was 2000 hours in when the PAF finally retired it. Maintenance and procedures made the difference.

A Pakistani F-16 was lost because the technician used a Mirage part in it to cut corners. So the otherwise very reliable F-100 caught fire mid flight. Maintenance and procedures made the difference.

Yes, China is a stone wall but Pakistan is one of the few(perhaps only) that has an eye inside its R&D and whispered things to by their Chinese counterparts which they would otherwise never disclose out of fear of losing the customer. The flipside of that is that when such input is provided the Pakistani side almost always responds with “Here is what we have heard X does to mitigate this” or at the least “Let us ask around for any workarounds”.

Coming to the J-10 specifically - are you aware of how many F-14s were lost to compressor stalls? And US was never under embargo for engine technology and yet we struggled.

Yes, there were design issues with the original J-10 and those were highlighted by the PAF with multiple changes before the original FC-20 spec was provided of which many suggestions were taken by CAC to the J-10B but at that time PAF had no funds available to divert. Today, the a revised Air Staff requirement asked for additional changes to the J-10C which will take their time to implement and get the PAF’s approval.
To reiterate, a different Air Staff requirement doesn’t make the PAF J-10C(if and when it arrives) superior to the PLAAF because the their(PLAAF) Air staff requirements are wholly different in terms of their primary adversary.

 

[MastanKhan]

What has you believing that the PAF would not have gone through a selection process that would look at any of these issues.
Even if the J-10C was the ONLY choice the PAF would go through its checklist and the engine QA would be one of it.
Are you aware of the safety record of F-6 , J-7 or Q-5 with the PLAAF vs the PAF? ( @Deino this isn’t an indictment of the PLAAF but the evolution of where the engine technology, mitigation and standards have come from where they were)

F-6s were considered throwaway aircraft when they first landed - 300 hours and done - no rebuilds. The oldest one was 2000 hours in when the PAF finally retired it. Maintenance and procedures made the difference.

A Pakistani F-16 was lost because the technician used a Mirage part in it to cut corners. So the otherwise very reliable F-100 caught fire mid flight. Maintenance and procedures made the difference.

Yes, China is a stone wall but Pakistan is one of the few(perhaps only) that has an eye inside its R&D and whispered things to by their Chinese counterparts which they would otherwise never disclose out of fear of losing the customer. The flipside of that is that when such input is provided the Pakistani side almost always responds with “Here is what we have heard X does to mitigate this” or at the least “Let us ask around for any workarounds”.

Coming to the J-10 specifically - are you aware of how many F-14s were lost to compressor stalls? And US was never under embargo for engine technology and yet we struggled.

Yes, there were design issues with the original J-10 and those were highlighted by the PAF with multiple changes before the original FC-20 spec was provided of which many suggestions were taken by CAC to the J-10B but at that time PAF had no funds available to divert. Today, the a revised Air Staff requirement asked for additional changes to the J-10C which will take their time to implement and get the PAF’s approval.
To reiterate, a different Air Staff requirement doesn’t make the PAF J-10C(if and when it arrives) superior to the PLAAF because the their(PLAAF) Air staff requirements are wholly different in terms of their primary adversary.

SQ8,

What made you 'squawk'?

 

[SQ8]

Very subtle, but when did you change sides?

Are you a resident or a citizen of the flag you fly?

 

[GriffinsRule]

Ok - forget about negative ratings and others.
Convince me on a technical basis why you believe the bold to be true?

What is the performance of both aircraft?
Range - payload
Avionics performance - Radar, EW , power output from engine

Price -
Cost to modify block-3 current configuration to match J-10 in all aspects
Cost to produce said block-3 and time to induction (time cost)

If you have good arguments backed up by publicly available sources for it there is no reason why @Deino or @araz would not be receptive

Can you reply to your own questions?

What is actually the price of a JF-17 BIII manufactured in Pakistan for the PAF? Do you have an exact figure?
And what significant payload advantage does the J-10 really have over the Thunder in A-A role in exactly? Range is not an issue anyway viz-a-viz India.


I agree with him that PAF should invest in JF-17 instead of buying J-10, another 4th gen, single engine fighter to add to the inventory...