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JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

it about tactics bro TACTICS
Ok Wng.Cmdr saheb !!!

Brother I have gut feeling that there some Block-IIs already flying prettily with retro-fit AESA (the LETRI LKF601E Radar).
Ever since this air cooled system came in picture, i had a very wild guess that this is solely intended and came for our block 1 and 2s

@aliyusuf @Mangus Ortus Novem @MastanKhan i can speculate and nothing more that this BIG DEAL fuss could very well be connected to upcoming PMIK visit to Mahatir lala ( saviour of ummah )

Let’s see what it’s about to come !!!

EXCITED !!!

Itni khushi to apne Block 3 ke liye nai jitni Bravo aur B3 export ki hogi,

paros aur mukhtalif “alLiEs” mein jalne ka waqt hoa jata hai
 
but Block-1/2 would not have full capability to exploit full potential of PL-15 (Range) because of Block-1/2/B radar range

Do u think KLJ V1/V2 have the radar coverage to support long range missile PL 15?

Well actually i am dismayed at the fact, if a radar has a Max range of say 100km.....how can it guide a missile that has reach of beyond 150km.....aren't you better off sticking with something like SD-10 until you have a radar with extended ranges.
They are probably in storage as off now until block 1 and 2 get radar upgrades

It's not just about matching the max ranges of the missiles with those of the radars'. Leaving aside the multiple guidance modes that modern missiles come with, we have to realize that the outcome of every missile launch will depend heavily on the kill probability (KP) of that missile at launch. The 'KP' itself is dependent on a great many factors, e.g. the altitude at launch, the altitude of the target at launch, the speed at launch, the speed of the target at launch, the relative angular aspect of the target, type of target, the size of the target, even the prevailing weather and wind currents at the scene of the battle. The most important of these is the distance between the launching aircraft and the target. For simplicity's sake we will assume all the factors except distance to remain constant at optimum throughout this discussion. For range, it's very simple; the closer you are to the target at launch the higher your KP, until you hit the No Escape Zone. The No Escape Zone, simply put, is a range of distance with certain given conditions where, theoretically, the target cannot escape the missile and hence the KP is 100%. At times there is a minimum launch distance as well but it is usually negligible, e.g. reported 2km for the AIM-120. The KP at max range of the missile will be the lowest of all, barring at beyond max and below minimum ranges where it would be zero. Hence the reason why no one really expects an A2A missile to be launched at max range.

Let's take the AIM-120D as our example. It's max range is stated to be >160km. It's No Escape Zone is estimated to be around 70km. This tells us that, under certain given conditions, at beyond 160km you will have no chance of getting the kill, at around 160km you might get the kill but the probability of that happening will not be very encouraging (How much exactly? We won't know that anytime soon). As you move closer to the target the KP will increase. When you are around 70km away your KP will theoretically max out at 100%; the target will be inside your No Escape Zone. When will you launch the missile? That will depend on the situation in the air and the desired outcome from the launch. If you are looking for a kill, you would want to launch them at the lowest possible distance that you would be able to. Launching within the No Escape Zone, more often than not, will not be possible. You could also launch it at max range just to make sure that the two bogies dispatched by the enemy to intercept your strike package are made busy before they can disrupt your strike. This is where the man behind the machine comes into play.

The PL-15's and the SD-10's estimated max ranges are 150km and 100km under certain given conditions, respectively. Their No Escape Zones are unknown but we can very roughly approximate them from the available estimates for the AIM-120C and AIM-120D. For argument's sake, let us assume that the No Escape Zones for the PL-15 and the SD-10 are 30km and 60km respectively. With the 100km approximate max detection range of the KLJ-7V1 radars on the JF-17 Block 1s and remembering everything that I have mentioned above, it is clear to see that from the first point of detection at 100km till the 30km mark the PL-15 will have a better chance of hitting the target than the SD-10. In fact, I am confident that the PL-15 will offer better KP at every possible launch distance than the SD-10, pretty sure that it will have a leg up the SD-10 in many aspects and not just the range.

In short, will the PL-15 be utilized to its max potential range on a Block1/2? No, but then most missiles seldom are. Will it be a better weapon to have than the SD-10 in an air battle when flying a block 1/2? Always.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, the radar on JF-17 has a range of some 100 kms, where as PL-15 has a operational range of in excess of 150 km....so how does this radar becomes compatible with the PL-15.

Good question.

PL-15, SD-10, AIM-120 are active radar homing guided missiles. These missiles have their own radar.

Let's say in a scenario where JF-17 Block 1 tracks a target at the range of 80 km. PL-15 is released and let us assume the bandit hits afterburners, drops stores and does a 180* with JF-17 turning back aswell.

The missile may quickly go out of the range of the airborne intercept radar/aircrafts own radar and switch on to its own radar and track the target via INS (inertial guidance system) and GPS and perhaps with a mid course update which can be done via nearest AWACS or any other airborne intercept radar. (Hint: this is one of the things which Link 16 does)

In this particular case, the target is well within PL-15s range and hence PL-15s radar will be switched on as soon as it is released. The pilot can still choose to guide it till the end for maximum effectiveness since AI radar is still way more powerful compared to the missile's guidance system. @HRK @Knuckles

It's not just about matching the max ranges of the missiles with those of the radars'. We have to realize that the outcome of every missile launch will depend heavily on the kill probability (KP) of that missile at launch. The 'KP' itself is dependent on a great many factors, e.g. the altitude at launch, the altitude of the target at launch, the speed at launch, the speed of the target at launch, the relative angular aspect of the target, even the prevailing weather and wind currents at the scene of the battle. The most important of these is the distance between the launching aircraft and the target. For simplicity's sake we will assume all the factors except distance to remain constant throughout this discussion. For range, it's very simple; the closer you are to the target at launch the higher your KP, until you hit the No Escape Zone. The No Escape Zone, simply put, is a range of distance with certain given conditions where, theoretically, the target cannot escape the missile and hence the KP is 100%. At times there is a minimum launch distance as well but it is usually negligible, e.g. reported 2km for the AIM-120. The KP at max range of the missile will be the lowest of all, barring at beyond max and below minimum ranges where it would be zero. Hence the reason why no one really expects an A2A missile to be launched at max range.

Let's take the AIM-120D as our example. It's max range is stated to be >160km. It's No Escape Zone is estimated to be around 70km. This tells us that, under certain given conditions, at beyond 160km you will have no chance of getting the kill, at around 160km you might get the kill but the probability of that happening will not be very encouraging (How much exactly? We won't know that anytime soon). As you move closer to the target the KP will increase. When you are around 70km away your KP will theoretically max out at 100%; the target will be inside your No Escape Zone. When will you launch the missile? That will depend on the situation in the air and the desired outcome from the launch. If you are looking for a kill, you would want to launch them at the lowest possible distance that you would be able to. Launching within the No Escape Zone, more often than not, will not be possible. You could also launch them at max range just to make sure that the two bogies dispatched by the enemy to intercept your strike package are made busy before they can disrupt your strike. This is where the man behind the machine comes into play.

The PL-15's and the SD-10's estimated max ranges are 150km and 100km under certain given conditions, respectively. Their No Escape Zones are unknown but we can very roughly approximate them from the available estimates for the AIM-120C and AIM-120D. For argument's sake, let us assume that the No Escape Zones for the PL-15 and the SD-10 are 30km and 60km respectively. With the 100km approximate max detection range of the KLJ-7V1 radars on the JF-17 Block 1s and remembering everything that I have mentioned above, it is clear to see that from the first point of detection at 100km till 60km the PL-15 will have a better chance of hitting the target than the SD-10. In fact, I am confident that the PL-15 will offer better KP at every possible launch distance than the SD-10, pretty sure that it will have a leg up the SD-10 in many aspects and not just the range.

In short, will the PL-15 be utilized to its max potential range on a Block1/2? No, but then most missiles seldom are. Will it be a better weapon to have than the SD-10 in an air battle when flying a block 1/2? Always.

Good analysis. However PL-15 can be utilized to its full potential under circumstances which include such as Indo-Pak scenario. Where the proximity of both the players is so close due to barely 7 nm or 3.5 nm of no fly zone on either side of the border. Once released after tracking of bandits by JF-17s at 50km, the PL-15 may under many circumstances end up killing its targets well within India. Exactly happened tot Su-30 which tried escaping after getting painted by an AMRAAM.
 
Good question.

PL-15, SD-10, AIM-120 are active radar homing guided missiles. These missiles have their own radar.

Let's say in a scenario where JF-17 Block 1 tracks a target at the range of 80 km. PL-15 is released and let us assume the bandit hits afterburners, drops stores and does a 180* with JF-17 turning back aswell.

The missile may quickly go out of the range of the airborne intercept radar/aircrafts own radar and switch on to its own radar and track the target via INS (inertial guidance system) and GPS and perhaps with a mid course update which can be done via nearest AWACS or any other airborne intercept radar. (Hint: this is one of the things which Link 16 does)

In this particular case, the target is well within PL-15s range and hence PL-15s radar will be switched on as soon as it is released. The pilot can still choose to guide it till the end for maximum effectiveness since AI radar is still way more powerful compared to the missile's guidance system.
Do you think if goes Super sukhoi, US would allow us V upgrades ?

Just your thoughts, not information.

Reason being, balance will be out apparently, F-16s will still be a trouble for IAF but IAF can get significantly better with Super Sukhoi. And if India all together refuses any US offers for MRCA, why would US not want business with us then ?
 
Do you think if goes Super sukhoi, US would allow us V upgrades ?

Just your thoughts, not information.

Reason being, balance will be out apparently, F-16s will still be a trouble for IAF but IAF can get significantly better with Super Sukhoi. And if India all together refuses any US offers for MRCA, why would US not want business with us then ?

Even if India doesnt go with US made jets for MMRCA, then still have alot of business with US such as C-130's, C-17s, P-8s, naval systems, radars, nuclear energy etc.

Pakistan still doesnt have any meaningful exchequer to offer.

As for F-16V upgrade, getting it is no problem. It has been formally offered to us with a possible sale of 24 F-16V's during IK's visit. Funds is what we dont have.
 
Even if India doesnt go with US made jets for MMRCA, then still have alot of business with US such as C-130's, C-17s, P-8s, naval systems, radars, nuclear energy etc.

Pakistan still doesnt have any meaningful exchequer to offer.

As for F-16V upgrade, getting it is no problem. It has been formally offered to us with a possible sale of 24 F-16V's during IK's visit. Funds is what we dont have.
...and even if we did, I imagine we wouldn't part with only our own money. Pressler will always be in our mind, so unless CSF/FMF is involved to foot at least the first batches, it's probably a non-starter.
 
They both have to cover/safeguard the same border length.


Says who?

India has a territory of 3.2 million sq km to cover with only 700 combat aircraft.

Pakistan has a territory of 800,000 sq km to cover with 500 combat aircraft.

India has 22 combat aircraft for every 100,000 sq km.

Pakistan has 63 combat aircraft for every 100,000 sq km.

What makes you think the Indian Air Force can take on Pakistan Air Force? Do you seriously think India can afford to deploy 500 combat aircraft on Pakistani border?

Pakistan being a thinner country can definitely afford to deploy majority of its fleet on the Indian border and the world saw a demonstration of this capability on 27th February 2019.
 
It's No Escape Zone is estimated to be around 70km
Meteor's no escape zone is said to be highest around 60km

The PL-15's and the SD-10's estimated max ranges are 150km and 100km
Pl 15s range us said to be in excess of 150km

24 F-16V's during IK's visit.
U mean fighters upgraded to V standard?

Do you think if goes Super sukhoi, US would allow us V upgrades ?

Just your thoughts, not information.

Reason being, balance will be out apparently, F-16s will still be a trouble for IAF but IAF can get significantly better with Super Sukhoi. And if India all together refuses any US offers for MRCA, why would US not want business with us then ?
By getting super sukhoi, they woulf get new missiles like K77/R77M. For that u need atleast F 16V with AIM120D
 

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