JF-17 and PLAAF

[Hadouken]

Jf-17 is awesome!

 

[Mani2020]

JIGS

here is fe information and comparison b/w AN/APG-66(V)2 and KLJ-7

i hope it will help u

APG-66(V)2 - upgrade of base radar. New signal processor, higher output power, improved reliability. Range in clutter/jamming environment increased to 83 km. where as it doesnt have track while scan ability but the later variant APG-66T had which by the way is not used by PAF

Frequency: 6.2 to 10.9 GHz

Volume: 0.08 m³ to 0.102 m³ depending on configuration

Weight: 98 to 135 kg depending on configuration

KJL-7

Introduced Mid-2000s

Range:
Look-up: ≥105 km (for RCS of 5 m2)
Look-down: ≥85 km (for RCS of 5 m2)

Frequency X-band

Volume: 0.065 m3

Weight: ≤120 kg

The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets.

Radar modes
Data from: CETC International

Range While Search (RWS)
Velocity Search (VS)
Single Target Track (STT)
Track While Scan (TWS)
Dual Target Track (DTT)
Situational Awareness Mode (SAM)
Air Combat Mode (ACM)(with five sub-modes)
Real Beam Map (RBM)
Doppler Beam Sharpening (DBS)
Ground Moving Target Indication/Ground Moving Target Track (GMTI/GMTT)
Air to Ground Ranging (AGR)
Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR)
Sea Single Target Track (SSTT)
Beacon (BCN)

 

[Jigs]

In the design of JF-17 extra room has been kept aside for any future upgrade involving a larger engine, so in future a larger more powerful engine can be installed in the JF-17, and with use of composites its weight can further be reduced to compensate the weight gained in having a larger engine.

And the radar isn't KLJ-7, its much better one compared to the original KLJ-7 specifications, and the current radar is better in performance wise compared to the radars we are having on our F-16, keeping aside the Blk 52s.

And the Chinese radar isn't of 90s technology, do remember the 2000s decade has also passed in it, during which lot of improvements have been done.

And yeah we did order 18 Blk 52s, and we left the option for ordering 18 further, hope so you can guess why.

Were there upgrades made to the KLJ-7 ? I thought Pakistan wanted to replace that radar eventually ?

Also i am sure upgrades will be made since Pakistan has manufacturing capabilities. I still think that more F-16s should be put in service as the older aircraft are phased out. JF-17 would be the main fighter while more F-16 block 52s slowly get aquired into service.

That would work best imo having a large number of JF-17s as well as a good number of F-16s. Unless pakistan feels better with getting J-10s for the more elite role.

 

[Jigs]

JIGS

here is fe information and comparison b/w AN/APG-66(V)2 and KLJ-7

i hope it will help u

APG-66(V)2 - upgrade of base radar. New signal processor, higher output power, improved reliability. Range in clutter/jamming environment increased to 83 km. where as it doesnt have track while scan ability but the later variant APG-66T had which by the way is not used by PAF

Frequency: 6.2 to 10.9 GHz

Volume: 0.08 m³ to 0.102 m³ depending on configuration

Weight: 98 to 135 kg depending on configuration

KJL-7

Introduced Mid-2000s

Range:
Look-up: ≥105 km (for RCS of 5 m2)
Look-down: ≥85 km (for RCS of 5 m2)

Frequency X-band

Volume: 0.065 m3

Weight: ≤120 kg

The radar can reportedly manage up to 40 targets, monitor up to 10 of them in track-while-scan (TWS) mode and simultaneously fire on two BVR targets.

Radar modes
Data from: CETC International

Range While Search (RWS)
Velocity Search (VS)
Single Target Track (STT)
Track While Scan (TWS)
Dual Target Track (DTT)
Situational Awareness Mode (SAM)
Air Combat Mode (ACM)(with five sub-modes)
Real Beam Map (RBM)
Doppler Beam Sharpening (DBS)
Ground Moving Target Indication/Ground Moving Target Track (GMTI/GMTT)
Air to Ground Ranging (AGR)
Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR)
Sea Single Target Track (SSTT)
Beacon (BCN)

I compared them in terms of range i would have compared the KJL-7 to AN/APG 68 but it has a far greater range using the same x-band set up. In track scan though it is superior to the F-16 block 15s.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Were there upgrades made to the KLJ-7 ? I thought Pakistan wanted to replace that radar eventually ?

Also i am sure upgrades will be made since Pakistan has manufacturing capabilities. I still think that more F-16s should be put in service as the older aircraft are phased out. JF-17 would be the main fighter while more F-16 block 52s slowly get aquired into service.

That would work best imo having a large number of JF-17s as well as a good number of F-16s. Unless pakistan feels better with getting J-10s for the more elite role.

Would be better if you go to the official JF-17 thread and see the information given there.

As i said, we are not using KLJ-7 radars in our JF-17s as we speak, its something much better then the specifications of KLJ-7, the type is not known for obvious reasons, secrecy.

And if we had wanted Blk 52s, we would have ordered more, but we didn't, as F-16s are gonna be going out of service from other countries as newer platforms come online. But yeah, we are looking for 2nd hand F-16s, and wish to upgrade them to Blk 52 standard to the maximum possible limit and other structural upgrades if necessary.

And upgraded F-16s and FC-20s are gonna make up the frontline fighter aircraft by the end of the coming decade, while JF-17 would be the work horse, but enough to give a tough time to any 4th gen IAF aircraft.

Plus, lot of upgrades planned for JF-17s in the next decade also.

 

[jagjitnatt]

Comparing JF-17 to F-16 is not fair.

F-16 is a better plane any day. JF-17 may be a good plane, but F-16 simply is better.
AMRAAM 120 Missiles can be installed on JF-17 but you also need the perfect radar to guide them. Countermeasure are important too. Electronic warfare software is important, which is a million times better in F-16. I am not discouraging people here, but JF-17 should not be inflated. Ask a Pakistani F-16 fighter and he will laugh if you even compare the two.
Radar ranges don't tell the whole story. One needs to take other factors into play, if the radar can be jammed, if its accurate, if it can be fooled, how it behaves with different objects with different rcs.

Pakistan has a wonderful gem in their inventory, should be proud of it. The airforce is buying more F-16s even after having trouble of sanctions for so many years. They are not stupid.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Comparing JF-17 to F-16 is not fair.

F-16 is a better plane any day. JF-17 may be a good plane, but F-16 simply is better.
AMRAAM 120 Missiles can be installed on JF-17 but you also need the perfect radar to guide them. Countermeasure are important too. Electronic warfare software is important, which is a million times better in F-16. I am not discouraging people here, but JF-17 should not be inflated. Ask a Pakistani F-16 fighter and he will laugh if you even compare the two.
Radar ranges don't tell the whole story. One needs to take other factors into play, if the radar can be jammed, if its accurate, if it can be fooled, how it behaves with different objects with different rcs.

Pakistan has a wonderful gem in their inventory, should be proud of it. The airforce is buying more F-16s even after having trouble of sanctions for so many years. They are not stupid.

PAF F-16s pilots are flying the JF-17s, hope this gives you an idea that why. And these pilots were asked on voluntary basis if they wish to come back to the F-16s program, and guess what they said, NO. Becoz they like JF-17 more then their previous love F-16s. And in simulated dog fights during training sessions, JF-17 defeated F-16s, not once but on multiple occasions.

And PAF is not buying more F-16s, 18 Blk 52s and the option for ordering another 18 was not exercised. If they got EDA or 2nd hand F-16s, fine or else they will be going for FC-20s and JF-17s in numbers.

And PAF is happy for the time being with its current JF-17 radar, which is much better in all categories then the current radars on the current F-16s.

 

[Jigs]

Comparing JF-17 to F-16 is not fair.

F-16 is a better plane any day. JF-17 may be a good plane, but F-16 simply is better.
AMRAAM 120 Missiles can be installed on JF-17 but you also need the perfect radar to guide them. Countermeasure are important too. Electronic warfare software is important, which is a million times better in F-16. I am not discouraging people here, but JF-17 should not be inflated. Ask a Pakistani F-16 fighter and he will laugh if you even compare the two.
Radar ranges don't tell the whole story. One needs to take other factors into play, if the radar can be jammed, if its accurate, if it can be fooled, how it behaves with different objects with different rcs.


Pakistan has a wonderful gem in their inventory, should be proud of it. The airforce is buying more F-16s even after having trouble of sanctions for so many years. They are not stupid.

Main point i was trying to make JF-17 is a great plane for pakistan because it is manufacturing it and will of course upgrade it and make it better as time goes on but the fact remains the F-16s will be the most advanced in inventory. Having both will boost the PAF considerably in strength.

 

[jagjitnatt]

Main point i was trying to make JF-17 is a great plane for pakistan because it is manufacturing it and will of course upgrade it and make it better as time goes on but the fact remains the F-16s will be the most advanced in inventory. Having both will boost the PAF considerably in strength.

Same here. I don't know what the hard point digesting it?

 

[jagjitnatt]

PAF F-16s pilots are flying the JF-17s, hope this gives you an idea that why. And these pilots were asked on voluntary basis if they wish to come back to the F-16s program, and guess what they said, NO. Becoz they like JF-17 more then their previous love F-16s. And in simulated dog fights during training sessions, JF-17 defeated F-16s, not once but on multiple occasions.

And PAF is not buying more F-16s, 18 Blk 52s and the option for ordering another 18 was not exercised. If they got EDA or 2nd hand F-16s, fine or else they will be going for FC-20s and JF-17s in numbers.

And PAF is happy for the time being with its current JF-17 radar, which is much better in all categories then the current radars on the current F-16s.

any source?

 

[TaimiKhan]

any source?

Source for what ??

 

[jagjitnatt]

Source for what ??

source for simulated dog fights, f16 pilots praising jf17 more than F16, JF-17 being better than F16.
Just tell me one thing in JF-17 that you thing outclasses F16's.

 

[TaimiKhan]

source for simulated dog fights, f16 pilots praising jf17 more than F16, JF-17 being better than F16.
Just tell me one thing in JF-17 that you thing outclasses F16's.

There are many members with their own internal sources and have mentioned all these things multiple times in the JF-17 thread, members with links to PAF. And as for mine, a friend of mine who is stationed on the base where JF-17s are stationed, so i get my info from there. If you need an official source, sorry can't help you in that as such things don't have official news sources.

And yeah we compare JF-17s to our current F-16s acquired in the 80s, which did not got upgraded throughout its life, we don;t compare it with Blk 52s.

Except for weapons load & ferry range, you tell me what you think in which field JF-17 lacks from our current F-16s of 80s.

 

[jagjitnatt]

Except for weapons load & ferry range, you tell me what you think in which field JF-17 lacks from our current F-16s of 80s.

When comparing a jet fighter the following things are what must be compared:

1. Engine - The engine JF-17 uses is the Klimov RD-93 turbofan which provides almost 50KN of thrust, which if you ask me is a little less. Also russian engines till date have been known to haven't been able to sustain afterburner for too long. So its 85KN of thrust cannot be sustained for long. Its top speed is also less.

The F-16 uses a much more powerful and reliable F110-GE-100 turbofan which provides 76 KN of dry thrust, which is more than enough for a plane of that size, and with its afterburner it provides 127 KN of thrust, which is a LOT. Also American engines are more reliable than Russian engines.

2. Weapon Load - JF-17's weapon load is 2/3 of that of the F16. The F16 carries more weapons, more fuel, has more range than the JF-17.

3. EW Suite - JF-17 has a chinese EW suite which are definitely not the best, its derived from russian EW suite which even the Indians refused to buy. Indians used their own EW along with Israeli. F-16 can be linked with awacs seemlessly. Their datalink technology is matured and proven.

4. Radar - The first 42 JF-17 are going to be fit with KLJ-7 radar which has a lookup range of 105km, 85km lookdown for a 5m2 rcs object. The new radar may be better but not by much, may be 15-25%.
The F-16 block 50/52+ uses AN/APG-68 V9 radar which has a range upto 300 kms but engages targets only upto 105 kms for 5m2 rcs. It also has a SAR capability. It uses less power and less cooling systems.

5. Weapons - No comparison here. AMRAAMs are one of the best BVR missiles. Better effective range, more maneuverability, less prone to missing the target. Also Sidewinders can be used, which are also one of the best in its class. Chinese missiles like sd-10 are nowhere near these missiles. Even russian missiles fall short.

6. Effectiveness - The rcs of F-16 is known to be around 1.2m2 which is very less when compared to jet fighters of its league. Also F-16 uses various composites and its build quality is very nice, whereas JF-17 uses all metal structure to reduce costs, which would increase its rcs. The F-16 is proven and its track record is superb. JF-17 is new, but it uses old russian derived components which would be easily available to India and India would definitely get a way to jam its radar, find weakness and exploit it.

I hope you understand my point of view and whoa that post was long. Good Night!

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

JF17 is better , plane then F16

a) We can fit any possible weapons on that plane
b) It comes with latest radars which can be upgraded any time
c) The avionics , and electronics on the system are superior
to the F16 A/B we have, and unless we get avionics that are
used on F15 (UAE) then we can argue, but we have advance
survailence technology already what we use on our UAV
d) The radars are always being enhanced, the JF17 will all be
synchronized with Advance chinese AWACS
e) Who know we might also get AESA Radars on the birds

F16 will always come with no , fun clause
J17 thuder gives us freedom in true sense when it come to defence in air