Japan considers building its own fighter jets

[syedali73]

During both Gulf Wars, the F-15s proved their capability with 34 combat kills against Mig-29 fulcrums, Mig-25s, Mig-21s, and Mig-23s. They are proven Air Superiority Fighters.

No my friend, its no proof for the opponents were both poorly trained, and technologically far inferior compared to well-trained USAF pilots who were flying F-15s, had AWACS support, and ECM. USAF/USN pilots, on average, log at-least 100-150 more flying hours/year compared to Iraqi pilots, and in the 2nd gulf war, this difference was even greater.

 

[Cossack25A1]

I think 2 years ago when the Philippines' Ministry of Foreign Affairs Sec. Albert Del Rosario had met with U.S counterparts, they had discussed the sales of F-16s through Government to Government initiative. The cost and maintenance was too high, i think for them. However, it seems that they have increased their defense budget since then. They (Philippines) had purchased 12 units of the Korean FA-50 Eagles, which is based on the F-16 specs. If the Philippines is satisfied with the FA-50s, I'm sure they might consider getting the real thing -- the F-16.

If they can maintain an Air Fleet of : 12 F/A-50 Eagles, and perhaps a squadron of F-16s, or perhaps a squadron of F-15s, they will have the air defense capability needed to protect their air domain.

The Philippines, in my opinion, has the potential to maintain this. During the 1970s and early 1980s, they had an incredible Air Force. They boasted over 40 F-8 Phantoms, and three squadrons of F-5 Tiger IIs. They fielded the strongest Air Force in South East Asia.

I believe that they can do it again.



Had that happened, the Philippines would have been far more modernized than most industrialized nations in the world. The Philippines would have been just like Guam , Puerto Rico. With all the people in your archipelago -- technically being U.S Citizens.

Well we have F-8 Crusaders which sadly got trashed by a volcano eruption and the F-5s were in service until 2005. It was neglected around early 80s during the final years of the Marcos administration but was neglected even further by the first Aquino administration. Back in 90s, during the Ramos administration, the modernization act was signed but the 1997 Asian financial crisis hits the country, preventing weapons acquisition and was left in a state of neglect until the second Aquino rose into power. Ironically, the modernization of the AFP was the only right thing he did, the rest is quite wrong. The F-16 issue was about the maintenance issue, thus we settled to the F/A-50s. I am not sure if we would still pursue the F-16 as it seems people in the government and military would prefer the JAS 39. While I have only read this in a blog or Wikipedia but back in the 70s, we were considering the F-15 Eagle or F-4 Phantom II but ended up procuring and acquiring the F-8 Crusader.

Well, if that had happened, but nationalism in the 1930s was rampant. In fact, whether Japan invaded or not, we would have become an independent country by 1946.

 

[Aepsilons]

No my friend, its no proof for the opponents were both poorly trained, and technological far inferior compared to USAF pilots who were flying F-15s, had AWACS support, and ECM.

That's the problem, not many pilots are as well trained as USAF pilots.

 

[Oldman1]

No my friend, its no proof for the opponents were both poorly trained, and technological far inferior compared to well-trained USAF pilots who were flying F-15s, had AWACS support, and ECM. USAF/USN pilots, on average, log at-least 100-150 more flying hours/year compared to Iraqi pilots, and in the 2nd gulf war, this difference was even greater.

During the Iran-Iraq War, the Iranians and their F14s show what they are capable of.

 

[Aepsilons]

During the Iran-Iraq War, the Iranians and their F14s show what they are capable of.

Correct. the Late Shah of Iran had been a fan of the F-14s, ironically, they proved effective against the Iraqi Air Force's Mig-29 Fulcrums.

 

[Zero_wing]

You got a point there. The Grippen is indeed overpriced, but I tend to agree with Oldman1 that F-16 would be a better option of PAF (I know we are talking about Philippines and not Pakistan) for it is relatively cheaper to maintain compared to F-15. Besides we need to see if US will approve the transfer of F-15s to Philippines if Philippines ever showed an interest in acquiring F-15s from Japan.

Regarding Grippen being untested in combat is not very correct to say. F-14/F-15/F-16/F-18 are combat proven against who, the poorly trained Iraqi, Libyan, Serbian pilots who were flying Russian relics.

Really kinda look again and we rejected the F16s because the Airframes offered to us will be so expenseive to maintain so opted for new models like the FA50 and the Gripen and we buy in limited numbers plus the Engine is the same as the FA50 plus added advantage is we have lot short run ways here located in strategic locations and the AFP modernization budget is getting bigger every years so with this factors we can facilitate the gripens but this still an open bid but the gripen is the strongrest choice by majority of Pilots of the PAF and the brass but maybe if the Japanese are willing maybe can consider the F2 or just go with FA50s

 

[Cossack25A1]

Anyways, we should stick to the topic. Aside from the Mitsubishi ATD-X, is Japan considering on designing a different fighter plane?

 

[Aepsilons]

Anyways, we should stick to the topic. Aside from the Mitsubishi ATD-X, is Japan considering on designing a different fighter plane?

Yes, 2 actually. The Mitsubishi F3 and the Mitsubishi F3E.

 

[syedali73]

During the Iran-Iraq War, the Iranians and their F14s show what they are capable of.

Yes, and the generation of Iranian fighter pilots that fought against Iraq was US-trained. Besides, during that war, the use of F-14 was largely restricted to AWACS-type role rather than a true air superiority fighter. There are no confirmed reports on how many Iraqi fighter aircrafts were downed by the Iranian F-14. Having said that, I am not challenging the fact that F-14s were very cpable fighters, just that 'combat proven' is a relative term which should be used judiciously.

 

[Aepsilons]

Yes, and the generation of Iranian fighter pilots that fought against Iraq was US-trained. Besides, during that war, the use of F-14 was largely restricted to AWACS-type role rather than a true air superiority fighter. There are no confirmed reports on how many Iraqi fighter aircrafts were downed by the Iranian F-14. Having said that, I am not challenging the fact that F-14s were very cpable fighters, just that 'combat proven' is a relative term which should be used judiciously.

[Name of aircraft] Air-to-air kills - Air-to-air losses - Losses to ground fire
[Name of conflict aircraft was used in] (Nation that used aircraft in said conflict) Air-to-air kills - Air-to-air losses - Losses to ground fire

F-14 Tomcat 135-4-4

Vietnam (1975) (USA) 0-0-0
Gulf of Sidra (USA) (1980) 2-0-0
Lebanon 1983 (USA) 0-0-0
Gulf of Sidra (1986) 0-0-0
Gulf of Sidra (1989) 2-0-0
Gulf War (USA) 1-0-1
Iraq NFZs (USA) 0-0-0
Bosnia (USA) 0-0-0
Kosovo (USA) 0-0-0
Afghanistan (USA) 0-0-0
Iraq (USA) 0-0-0
Iran-Iraq War (Iran) 130-4-4

 

[Oldman1]

Yes, and the generation of Iranian fighter pilots that fought against Iraq was US-trained. Besides, during that war, the use of F-14 was largely restricted to AWACS-type role rather than a true air superiority fighter. There are no confirmed reports on how many Iraqi fighter aircrafts were downed by the Iranian F-14. Having said that, I am not challenging the fact that F-14s were very cpable fighters, just that 'combat proven' is a relative term which should be used judiciously.

Okay they were trained by the U.S. Does it not point out the fact that usually our allies or former allies would be facing against a country that is Russian trained?

 

[syedali73]

Really kinda look again and we rejected the F16s because the Airframes offered to us will be so expenseive to maintain so opted for new models like the FA50 and the Gripen and we buy in limited numbers plus the Engine is the same as the FA50 plus added advantage is we have lot short run ways here located in strategic locations and the AFP modernization budget is getting bigger every years so with this factors we can facilitate the gripens but this still an open bid but the gripen is the strongrest choice by majority of Pilots of the PAF and the brass but maybe if the Japanese are willing maybe can consider the F2 or just go with FA50s

Grippen has been proven pretty expensive to be maintained by a number of its operator including South African Air force, and Thai Air force. However, if the PAF thought it could maintain this fighter, than good for them. Grippen is definitely hell of a fighter.

 

[Aepsilons]

Really kinda look again and we rejected the F16s because the Airframes offered to us will be so expenseive to maintain so opted for new models like the FA50 and the Gripen and we buy in limited numbers plus the Engine is the same as the FA50 plus added advantage is we have lot short run ways here located in strategic locations and the AFP modernization budget is getting bigger every years so with this factors we can facilitate the gripens but this still an open bid but the gripen is the strongrest choice by majority of Pilots of the PAF and the brass but maybe if the Japanese are willing maybe can consider the F2 or just go with FA50s

The cost of 1 Jas Gripen is $69 million, not including maintenance cost. With that amount, the Philippine Air Force can acquire almost 3 F/A-50s or 2 of the F-16 CD variants.

In addition, the combat record of the F-16 is proven , whereas that of the Jas Gripen is in want.


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F-16 Falcon 76-1-5

Gulf War (USA) 0-0-3
No-Fly Zones (USA) 2-0-0
Bosnia (USA) 4-0-1
Kosovo (USA) 1-0-1
Kosovo (Netherlands) 1-0-0
Kosovo (Portugal, Belgium, Denmark, Turkey) 0-0-0
Afghanistan (USA, Netherlands, Denmark, Norway) 0-0-0
Iraq (USA) 0-0-0
Syrian border clashes 1979-1986 (Israel) 6-0-0
Operation Opera (Israel) 0-0-0
Lebanon War (1982) (Israel) 44-0-0
Lebanon War (2006) (Israel) 3-0-0
Intifada (2000-present) (Israel) 0-0-0
Soviet-Afghan War (Pakistan) 10-0-0
Border clashes (Pakistan) 1-0-0
Kargil War (Pakistan) 0-0-0
Northwest border wars (Pakistan) 0-0-0
Aegean Sea clashes (Turkey) 1-1-0
Venezuelan Coup 1992 (Venezuela) 3-0-0

 

[syedali73]

Okay they were trained by the U.S. Does it not point out the fact that usually our allies or former allies would be facing against a country that is Russian trained?

It is both the training and the superior military hardware plus force multipliers such as AWACS, ECM that wins a trophy. Please do not ignore the fact that before the demise of the Shah, Iranian Air force was not among but THE best air force of the region. The Iranian Air Force did lose her teeth over the period of time but was still in pretty good shape during Iraq Iran war.

 

[Cossack25A1]

Yes, 2 actually. The Mitsubishi F3 and the Mitsubishi F3E.

The design seems to imply that it would likely replace the F-2 or F-15 since the F-3 appear to be a multirole fighter and the F-3E is either similar to a bomber or similar to the F-15E Strike Eagle.