J-10A & J-11B: Join Air Exercise

[siegecrossbow]

Canards and TVC may be to compensate for extra weight of MKI.

Also, don't forget about flight performance, these are important too.

A basic J-11A has better figures than MKI such as top speed, range, climb rate, combat ceiling, T/W ratio.
J-11B is likely to increase that gap further by reducing weight with composites and using WS-10A engines with increased thrust.
This would give the Kinematic advantage to J-11B

The thing I am worried about the most are still the WS-10A engines.

 

[CardSharp]

Jesus Christ, everyone shut up about Russian stuff so we don't have the slav brigade coming through every other day to defend their hardware.

 

[siegecrossbow]

J 10B already have WS 10A engines.

No J-11B has WS-10A engines. J-10B still uses AL-31.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

It is total nonesense, Russia has been selling aircraft like hot cakes, look at the SU-30 for example. Not only is Russia finding new clients but it is also finding clients that has traditionally operated US aircraft. It's also no suprise that India and Russia have plans to purchase ~500 plus aircraft, mostly Sukhoi. And lets not forget all the upgrade Sukhoi and Mig performs.

True, but China was Russia's largest buyer after the Soviet Unions collapse. It would still be a large partner if China didn't develop its own modern aeronautical complex.

No it does not; it's not that simple. The emphasis today is ECM's and like it or not the MKI has one of most effective and proven systems. Back to a radars ability to engage, if the MKI is able to jam the enemy radars, which it routinely has no problem doing you will not be able to engage any aircraft. Further, if you are able to engage X number of fighters it does not mean you will fire at them simultaneously due to amount of armament and hit probability--hit probability in range and hit probability in numerical numbers, example firing two missile at one target is routine.

The most important factor in engaging multiple targets is target resolution, which is the radars ability to distinguish multiple targets at somewhat close proximities, this means that a flight of 2-3 MKI's may appear as one, thus the enemy radar can not engage all targets.

J 11 has ECM as well in the KG300G

BM/KG300G - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Both are not really tested against equivalent platforms like an F 15 so its hard see to which is more effective.

 

[tanlixiang28776]

No J-11B has WS-10A engines. J-10B still uses AL-31.

Slip of the fingers.

 

[Akasa]

No it does not; it's not that simple. The emphasis today is ECM's and like it or not the MKI has one of most effective and proven systems. Back to a radars ability to engage, if the MKI is able to jam the enemy radars, which it routinely has no problem doing you will not be able to engage any aircraft. Further, if you are able to engage X number of fighters it does not mean you will fire at them simultaneously due to amount of armament and hit probability--hit probability in range and hit probability in numerical numbers, example firing two missile at one target is routine.

The most important factor in engaging multiple targets is target resolution, which is the radars ability to distinguish multiple targets at somewhat close proximities, this means that a flight of 2-3 MKI's may appear as one, thus the enemy radar can not engage all targets.

The J-11B also has an ECM suite. It's erroneous to say that the MKI can successfully defeat the J-11B's radar because it depends on who jams first.

True, tracking a number of targets doesn't mean simultaneously engaging all of them, but it is still an advantage over a radar that can't track as many targets (therefore decreasing hit probability).

Your last comment doesn't prove that the Su-30MKI is better. It just says that aircraft radars does not always show what is there.

Speaking of target resolution, there is a report that Chinese universities are testing a new "radar cloaking" device that can essentially make the enemy see what the radar operator wants them to see and to hide what needs to be hidden. For example, they can make a fighter jet appear as a bird on radar or simply make something disappear even when it's still there.

Seeing that you are the expert in quantum physics here, do you mind explaining how that concept works?

 

[ptldM3]

Jesus Christ, everyone shut up about Russian stuff so we don't have the slav brigade coming through every other day to defend their hardware.

Everyone is free to state what they know/want but many people, especially in the Chinese section make baseless or provocative and vague claims that can not be ignored. Regarding the Slav brigade, don't you enjoy the epic battles of Chinese Power Rangers VS. the Slave brigade?

True, but China was Russia's largest buyer after the Soviet Unions collapse. It would still be a large partner if China didn't develop its own modern aeronautical complex.



J 11 has ECM as well in the KG300G

BM/KG300G - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Both are not really tested against equivalent platforms like an F 15 so its hard see to which is more effective.

I was aware that the J-11 had ECM's, I used ECM's to show that a radar that is capable of tracking and firing at X number of targets may not necessarily be able to do so.

 

[ptldM3]

The J-11B also has an ECM suite. It's erroneous to say that the MKI can successfully defeat the J-11B's radar because it depends on who jams first.

True, tracking a number of targets doesn't mean simultaneously engaging all of them, but it is still an advantage over a radar that can't track as many targets (therefore decreasing hit probability).

More targets tracked and engaged does not increase hit probability, tracking 15 targets as opposed to 20 only gives the pilot better situational awareness, and in fact, if target resolution is low, it can give a false impression of the actual number of fighters seen. Again 20 targets may only appear as 1 large target, 10 targets, 15 targets, and so on, if a radar is unable to distinguish targets apart from one another it will not be able to fire at all targets. Seekers, firing range, ECM, data-link, pilot training as well as many other factors play a role in hit probability.

Speaking of target resolution, there is a report that Chinese universities are testing a new "radar cloaking" device that can essentially make the enemy see what the radar operator wants them to see and to hide what needs to be hidden. For example, they can make a fighter jet appear as a bird on radar or simply make something disappear even when it's still there.


Seeing that you are the expert in quantum physics here, do you mind explaining how that concept works?

I haven't heard of it so I can't say much, but it sounds similar to a jammer. It would also depend on the aircraft and ECM, it may have success against radars operating in single frequency but a radar that constantly changes frequencies--possibly hundreds or thousands of times a second would render such devices useless based on the fact that the frequency is never the same thus the enemy radar can not be manipulated.

 

[CardSharp]

Everyone is free to state what they know/want but many people, especially in the Chinese section make baseless or provocative and vague claims that can not be ignored. Regarding the Slav brigade, don't you enjoy the epic battles of Chinese Power Rangers VS. the Slave brigade?

I didn't tell you to shut up and no product comparisons bore the living F* out of me. It is a perfectly inane exercise to argue about whose plane is slightly faster, bigger, smaller, fruitier, purpleler, often based on incomplete and unobtainable (classified) information. People indulge in this as if winning argument over the internet will actually make the weapon produced by their country more effective.

 

[Akasa]

More targets tracked and engaged does not increase hit probability, tracking 15 targets as opposed to 20 only gives the pilot better situational awareness, and in fact, if target resolution is low, it can give a false impression of the actual number of fighters seen. Again 20 targets may only appear as 1 large target, 10 targets, 15 targets, and so on, if a radar is unable to distinguish targets apart from one another it will not be able to fire at all targets. Seekers, firing range, ECM, data-link, pilot training as well as many other factors play a role in hit probability.



I haven't heard of it so I can't say much, but it sounds similar to a jammer. It would also depend on the aircraft and ECM, it may have success against radars operating in single frequency but a radar that constantly changes frequencies--possibly hundreds or thousands of times a second would render such devices useless based on the fact that the frequency is never the same thus the enemy radar can not be manipulated.

The ability to track and engage more targets is still an advantage in battle involving multiple enemy aircraft. We don't know the ability of the J-11B's radar or the Irbis-E to distinguish targets, so it's not safe to assume.

If the enemy switches frequencies, in that case SIGINT pods like the KZ900 would help.

 

[Indus Falcon]

Speaking of target resolution, there is a report that Chinese universities are testing a new "radar cloaking" device that can essentially make the enemy see what the radar operator wants them to see and to hide what needs to be hidden. For example, they can make a fighter jet appear as a bird on radar or simply make something disappear even when it's still there.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't this technology already incorporated in the Rafael?

 

[rcrmj]

mig21 bison is better than j(10+11)B C D E F

P-51 is better than LCA MKI II III ```XX

 

[Akasa]

If I'm not mistaken, isn't this technology already incorporated in the Rafael?

No it isn't. The technology is new and it will take years to perfect it.

The Rafale just happens to be quite stealthy in some aspects.

The Chinese university is the first to discover the technology and it hasn't been applied to the military yet.

 

[localoca]

If I'm not mistaken, isn't this technology already incorporated in the Rafael?

Please don't compare that Old 4th gen french tech to the Chinese J-20 which is a tech that Nobody(aside from the USA ofcourse) has match, Russia is Years if not decades away from Chinese 5th gen tech, the French are so behind its not even funny...

J-20 5th Gen tech is the best...

 

[gambit]

Speaking of target resolution, there is a report that Chinese universities are testing a new "radar cloaking" device that can essentially make the enemy see what the radar operator wants them to see and to hide what needs to be hidden. For example, they can make a fighter jet appear as a bird on radar or simply make something disappear even when it's still there.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't this technology already incorporated in the Rafael?

No it isn't. The technology is new and it will take years to perfect it.

The Rafale just happens to be quite stealthy in some aspects.

The Chinese university is the first to discover the technology and it hasn't been applied to the military yet.

This has been discussed here before. But hearing the Chinese version is going to be entertaining.