J-10 a strategic choice for Bangladesh Air Force

[Bilal9]

Based on what i see, absolutely nothing.

There is nothing the BAF can throw at the IAF that will stop a determined attack from the IAF. BAF will not only need to induct new platforms, but it will have to train its crews and harden its tactics. There are far too many gaps that need to be filled in order for BAF to mount a credible threat to the IAF. It will take decades i believe, multiple decades for the BAF to build a force that is well trained and can operate a modern Air Force that has the capability to mount counter sorties against a juggernaut such as the IAF. For now, India has absolute dominance in Air, Land and Sea in that part of the world.

What's your opinion on the Myanmar Airforce? They seem pretty decent for a country of that size.

So missiles and cheap directed-sensor munitions (a la Manpads like FN-16 and RBS 70) both of which may be inducted locally, will not help? I know that the FN-16 is made locally and is deployed in numbers.

The Indian Govt. has been very successful in neutralizing any BAF development on offensive front, other than training equipment.

 

[UKBengali]

See my earlier post, before you decided on a platform you first have to identify all the roles this platform will be required to perform. As an example, if maritime operations is one of the roles it rules out the J-10 and most single engine platforms. Frankly, If your principal threat is India I don’t see how the BAF can thwart a determined IAF assault. I spent some time thinking about how the USAF or US Navy will defend Bangladesh and the answer was always the same - my first priority is to be able to see deep into India or Myanmar, once I have all round tactical awareness I can marshal my resources more effectively. I also need a workhorse not a hanger queen, a versatile platform (with cheap smart munitions) that can generate a lot of sorties - rules out most Russian and Chinese platforms.

I think its a fascinating discussion IAF v BAF, what will it take to neutralize the geographic advantage India enjoys.

J-31 will be combined with a Western platform.

As long as J-31 can act as an air superiority fighter with secondary ground attack capability that will be fine.
Western platforms like Euro-fighter can act in naval strike role where it has had a lot of development.

As regards availability, newer Chinese fighters are far more reliable than Russian ones - somewhere between Russian and Western availability rates.

BD need not be able to stand up to the whole of the Indian airforce - just have enough capability to give it a bloody nose and then deterrence can be achieved.

PS - Remember that Chinese aerospace is getting better relative to the West all the time since they are in catch-up mode.

 

[JohnWick]

J-31 will be combined with a Western platform.

As long as J-31 can act as an air superiority fighter with secondary ground attack capability that will be fine.
Western platforms like Euro-fighter can act in naval strike role where it has had a lot of development.

As regards availability, newer Chinese fighters are far more reliable than Russian ones - somewhere between Russian and Western availability rates.

BD need not be able to stand up to the whole of the Indian airforce - just have enough capability to give it a bloody nose and then deterrence can be achieved.

PS - Remember that Chinese aerospace is getting better relative to the West all the time since they are in catch-up mode.

You should achieve deterrence through the Biological weapons Rather then the nuclear weapons.

 

[notorious_eagle]

So missiles and cheap directed-sensor munitions (a la Manpads like FN-16 and RBS 70) both of which may be inducted locally, will not help? I know that the FN-16 is made locally and is deployed in numbers.

If we are talking about the IAF, then no these platforms won't be enough to stop a determined attack from the IAF. They won't even put a scratch or a dent on the IAF fast movers.

The Indian Govt. has been very successful in neutralizing any BAF development on offensive front, other than training equipment.

It makes sense from their side. The last thing they would want is a military strong Bangladesh because it forces India to dedicate assets to counter any threat from Bangladesh. That being said, the cadre of Bangladeshi Officers is absolutely top notch as per Pakistani Officers who have served with them in UN or studied with them.

 

[Bilal9]

If we are talking about the IAF, then no these platforms won't be enough to stop a determined attack from the IAF. They won't even put a scratch or a dent on the IAF fast movers.



It makes sense from their side. The last thing they would want is a military strong Bangladesh because it forces India to dedicate assets to counter any threat from Bangladesh. That being said, the cadre of Bangladeshi Officers is absolutely top notch as per Pakistani Officers who have served with them in UN or studied with them.

Well Thanks, folks who go into the army as officers are well talented as can be expected. UN appointments are also highly sought after and attract talent as the pay rates are lucrative.

I have it on first-hand account however that RAW plants are active and dictate policy in Directorate General of Forces Intelligence (DGFI which is our version of ISI). If that is true, then this is a truly sad situation. I am waiting for Hasina to pass away or pass the baton, whichever happens first, because this state of affairs cannot stand. A sovereign nation's armed forces' policy cannot be dictated by another country.

Neither the grassroots commissioned officers nor the top level commanders of our armed forces are fond of Indians dictating our policy (as can be expected), especially for BAF. Indians have not been able to make much headway into either Army or Navy command, but BAF they have, and as a result BAF is horribly unequipped except for only training platforms. The top echelon of BAF is also not as worthy of respect as is for the navy or the Army.

Since J-10 is into the third version now, and well over 500 per Chinese reports have been manufactured, what would be your thoughts on countering IAF Rafales and Su30's with those, as compared to late block F-16's?

Or even the F-18 late version, which was offered and can offer maritime strike capability.

 

[Nike]

See my earlier post, before you decided on a platform you first have to identify all the roles this platform will be required to perform. As an example, if maritime operations is one of the roles it rules out the J-10 and most single engine platforms. Frankly, If your principal threat is India I don’t see how the BAF can thwart a determined IAF assault. I spent some time thinking about how the USAF or US Navy will defend Bangladesh and the answer was always the same - my first priority is to be able to see deep into India or Myanmar, once I have all round tactical awareness I can marshal my resources more effectively. I also need a workhorse not a hanger queen, a versatile platform (with cheap smart munitions) that can generate a lot of sorties - rules out most Russian and Chinese platforms.

I think its a fascinating discussion IAF v BAF, what will it take to neutralize the geographic advantage India enjoys.

The chance of IAF (along with Indian army artillery rocket assets) to obliterate or heavily crippled Bangladesh Air Forces in first wave of shooting war is quite high and given the fact about lack of underground hardened shelter and hardened hangar to protect Bangladesh Air Forces vital assets made the possibility is quite high.

Not to mention other crucial factor to boot

 

[enroger]

If considering an all out attack/invasion from India then frankly any fighter jets is kind of useless for BD. In that case the North Korean approach is more useful, to damage Indian economy to such an degree that the cost outweigh any possible benefit of an invasion. You need long range MLRS/ SLBM/ cruise missile for that.

Now if you're talking about small scale skirmishes like the feb 27th incidence then J-10CE can be pretty handy. J-10C fared pretty well against Su-35 in internal PLAAF competition.

 

[Nike]

If considering an all out attack/invasion from India then frankly any fighter jets is kind of useless for BD. In that case the North Korean approach is more useful, to damage Indian economy to such an degree that the cost outweigh any possible benefit of an invasion. You need long range MLRS/ SLBM/ cruise missile for that.

Now if you're talking about small scale skirmishes like the feb 27th incidence then J-10CE can be pretty handy. J-10C fared pretty well against Su-35 in internal PLAAF competition.

Well actually not that case, what made it seems imbalance is the number factor. India had accumulate number as their strength vis a vis Bangladesh, now if Bangladesh wanna to made confrontation against India Air Force seems possible they need not only to revamp the strategy they had but to increase the game number too so they can increase the chance of more level play.

Actually there is several countries in Asia who had formidable Air Force in which if their country placed directly beside India they can deter India Air Force for good , although to do that most of them had formidable economy to back it up (South Korean, Japan and Taiwan no need to mention PRC)

If only Bangladesh can achieve South Korean or Taiwan forces scale and complexity , they can deter Indian Air Force and Army saturation attack for good.

 

[enroger]

Well actually not that case, what made it seems imbalance is the number factor. India had accumulate number as their strength vis a vis Bangladesh, now if Bangladesh wanna to made confrontation against India Air Force seems possible they need not only to revamp the strategy they had but to increase the game number too so they can increase the chance of more level play.

Actually there is several countries in Asia who had formidable Air Force in which if their country placed directly beside India they can deter India Air Force for good , although to do that most of them had formidable economy to back it up (South Korean, Japan and Taiwan no need to mention PRC)

If only Bangladesh can achieve South Korean or Taiwan forces scale and complexity , they can deter Indian Air Force and Army saturation attack for good.

True, but BD would have to invest many fold it's current defense spending to remedy the number disadvantage. I honestly don't know if it is wise for BD, I mean is the threat that big or possible?

 

[Nike]

True, but BD would have to invest many fold it's current defense spending to remedy the number disadvantage. I honestly don't know if it is wise for BD, I mean is the threat that big or possible?

Not possible for them to do that in one or two decades ahead , not to mention their current situation....

 

[UKBengali]

Not possible for them to do that in one or two decades ahead , not to mention their current situation....

There is one flaw in that line of argument....

BD does not need to match India plane for plane, tank for tank and ship for ship.

It just needs enough firepower to give the Indians a bloody nose.

I think with the expected rate of growth of the economy till 2035(assuming Covid-19 does not drag on for more than 1 year), then deterrence can be achieved by then with BD getting a good balance of Western/Turkish and Chinese weapons.

India is not that powerful as they got thumped by Pakistan back in February 2019 - they have lots of numbers but seem to lack in quality.

 

[The Ronin]

No I had not but everything you say has been said before.

While J-10CE would be a good choice, as it should be relatively competitive with IAF Rafales, the problem is that we are in 2020 now. 4th gen fighters first came out in the 1970s!

Why would BAF be interested in J-10CE anyway? To deter India of course. You think that even 100 J-10CEs would be much of a deterrent especially when the IAF starts equipping with some kind of 5th gen fighter in the 2030s? Of course not as 4th gen fighters lose at least 10:1 against 5th gen fighters from exercises by both USA and China.

BAF can wait to equip against IAF but to be ready to handle MAF is urgent.

Now you may say that BD can start equipping with 5th gen fighters from 2030 onwards after it has brought say Eurofighter and J-10CE this decade, but the problem with that theory is that BD is not exactly a rich country and will not be even in 10 years if the BD economy quickly bounces back from Covid-19 and continues it's fast growth trajectory. My premise is that BD can only properly afford two brand new fighter-aircraft platforms and this should be a Western-type and Chinese one to cater for both Myanmar and India.

As regards "unproven" J-31, well J-10 has also never been in any kind of war either but it has been in production for a decade and a half. J-31 is taking all this experience that China has from the domestic engine they made for FC-1 and the stealth and avionics/radar tech on the J-20 and putting it into this brand new fighter. I think it will turn out ok. BAF will not exactly buy it without thoroughly evaluating it's flight characteristics, stealth, avionics and radar.

As long as the J-31 has enough other interested parties, even better if China buys it as well, to guarantee continuing development and spares/supplies for the long-term it is pretty much a no-brainer for BD's economic and strategic situation.

Finally the induction date is of course speculation on our parts and BAF just needs to ask the Chinese to get a much better idea.

You still don't get it. Ok first of all we are talking about 4.5 generation M-MRCA option here which is far more advanced than the 4th gen from 1970 you are talking about.

Don't know about MAF { @Aung Zaya do you know about the MAF fighter requirement?} but India still has requirement of 114 jets under MMRCA 2.0 program. IAF also have plans to replace Su-30 with Western fighter.

So lets' assume at least 450+ 4.5 generation fighter jet consisting of Su-30, Mig- 29/35, Rafale, Tejas, JF-17, (F-16/18, Gripen under MMRCA 2.0) etc will be operational in MAF-IAF for at least 30+ years.

So what are you gonna do to counter these large number of fighters? You gotta maintain quantity and quality at the same time. You can't buy any Western jet in large number because of price and politics. Even if we buy EFT, we won't get Meteor for at least 4 years. Russian jets are currently out of the question and require high maintenance. Also Russian after-sales service are poor.

You can't deploy large amount of 5th gen either. As i mentioned in my previous thread it will be costlier to buy and maintain a fifth gen fighter than a 4.5 gen, it will be similar like maintaining EFT/Su-35. Price of a F-35A is $80 million. Even if BAF go for a 5th gen it will be at least after 2028/30.

There's no guarantee that BAF will go for J-31 as there will be lot more better options available like KFX, TFX, Japanese and European option. Turkey-BD military relation is already growing and they see BD as a potential customer for TFX. Also our current AJT is Russian Yak-130 only. So unless we buy any new AJT, there's little chance to think about any other 5th gen except Russian which also seems impossible for now.

Also there's no guarantee that BAF gonna buy any 5th gen fighter in large number. It could be like our Mig-29, F-7 combo. And it will be operational with EFT few years later at the same time. So it's gonna be 2/3 squadrons of EFT and 1/2 5th gen maximum. You still need a fighter to fill up a huge gap.

Now if you watched BAF's flying formation or remember PAF's counter attack on IAF in 27th Feb; there was Mig-29, F-7 and F-16, JF-17 flying together. A high-low mix. Now BAF will look for a jet which has low per flight hour cost, can be deployed, stationed in mass and scrambled sooner to intercept at minimum cost. It will not always scramble an EFT or 5th gen fighter to intercept a JF-17/Tejas/Mig-29-35 as it seems costly overkill. It will need a cheaper option for regular CAP.

Considering all the things, if we can't afford large number of Western 4.5 gen or 5th gen then what other option is left for us? It's only J-10 (Or JF-17 for the worst situation). It won't be hard to maintain even if economy goes down. It will be like 4.5 gen F-7. At least 3/4 will be necessary to get close to our mid-term 100 jet goal.

And J-10 didn't see any export success yet cause China didn't promote B and C block before. Suggesting J-31 is like suggesting a 5th gen F-7. Cheapest 5th gen but still costlier than J-10.

It's true that BAF can't afford more that types of fighter so i think there's no need to worry about 5th gen till 2030/32. For now we gotta strengthen AF with 4.5 fighter, SAM and better radar. Later we can induct a 5th gen as 3rd option if few amount.

Perhaps my writing is a mess but hope you get the picture.

Any US equipped fighters will not be a problem for Bangladesh. It does not involve itself in powerplays involving sanctions. Attacking Myanmar won't invite sanctions. It will temporarily stop arm sales as it does for almost all country. You just needs to be prepared. BD Airforce can save lots of time in having American engine. A reason why India isn't too keen to explore JV with Russian engines from the beginning for domestic engine development.

Problem is they won't let you use it for offensive role and approval from congress/DoD for weapon sales takes time. If any internal problem arise that's also gonna be problem. Pakistan, Turkey, Iran, China are prime example not to rely on US completely.

And please don't start insulting Pakistani military industrial base cause you guys are buying few EFTs, Rafales, F18s, F16s, F35s, F22s... etc in 2070.
Behave yourself. The jets have not landed yet and you are talking as if BD has suddenly become superpower. Talking like an Indian.

I respect Bangladesh and Bangladeshi people but please don't bring Pakistan here.

No one was insulting Pakistan, talking like Indian and no BD member brought Pakistan here first. One Pakistani mentioned JF-17 as an offer and Basel got kinda riled up about it. I was unaware about Pakistan making aerial munitions and Basel didn't reply straight like you did. Thanks for the infos.

Based on what i see, absolutely nothing.

There is nothing the BAF can throw at the IAF that will stop a determined attack from the IAF. BAF will not only need to induct new platforms, but it will have to train its crews and harden its tactics. There are far too many gaps that need to be filled in order for BAF to mount a credible threat to the IAF. It will take decades i believe, multiple decades for the BAF to build a force that is well trained and can operate a modern Air Force that has the capability to mount counter sorties against a juggernaut such as the IAF. For now, India has absolute dominance in Air, Land and Sea in that part of the world.

What's your opinion on the Myanmar Airforce? They seem pretty decent for a country of that size.

What do you think about EFT and J-10 combo? How about 2 squadrons of EFT and at least 3/4 squadrons of J-10 for trying to achieve BAF's mid-term plan of 100 jet? EFT can perform air superiority and maritime strike while J-10 form the back bone of BAF?

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

You still don't get it. Ok first of all we are talking about 4.5 generation M-MRCA option here which is far more advanced than the 4th gen from 1970 you are talking about.

Don't know about MAF {@Aung Zaya do you know about the MAF fighter requirement?} but India still has requirement of 114 jets under MMRCA 2.0 program. IAF also have plans to replace Su-30 with Western fighter.

So lets' assume at least 450+ 4.5 generation fighter jet consisting of Su-30, Mig- 29/35, Rafale, Tejas, JF-17, (F-16/18, Gripen under MMRCA 2.0) etc will be operational in MAF-IAF for at least 30+ years.

So what are you gonna do to counter these large number of fighters? You gotta maintain quantity and quality at the same time. You can't buy any Western jet in large number because of price and politics. Even if we buy EFT, we won't get Meteor for at least 4 years. Russian jets are currently out of the question and require high maintenance. Also Russian after-sales service are poor.

You can't deploy large amount of 5th gen either. As i mentioned in my previous thread it will be costlier to buy and maintain a fifth gen fighter than a 4.5 gen, it will be similar like maintaining EFT/Su-35. Price of a F-35A is $80 million. Even if BAF go for a 5th gen it will be at least after 2028/30.

There's no guarantee that BAF will go for J-31 as there will be lot more better options available like KFX, TFX, Japanese and European option. Turkey-BD military relation is already growing and they see BD as a potential customer for TFX. Also our current AJT is Russian Yak-130 only. So unless we buy any new AJT, there's little chance to think about any other 5th gen except Russian which also seems impossible for now.

Also there's no guarantee that BAF gonna buy any 5th gen fighter in large number. It could be like our Mig-29, F-7 combo. And it will be operational with EFT few years later at the same time. So it's gonna be 2/3 squadrons of EFT and 1/2 5th gen maximum. You still need a fighter to fill up a huge gap.

Now if you watched BAF's flying formation or remember PAF's counter attack on IAF in 27th Feb; there was Mig-29, F-7 and F-16, JF-17 flying together. A high-low mix. Now BAF will look for a jet which has low per flight hour cost, can be deployed, stationed in mass and scrambled sooner to intercept at minimum cost. It will not always scramble an EFT or 5th gen fighter to intercept a JF-17/Tejas/Mig-29-35 as it seems costly overkill. It will need a cheaper option for regular CAP.

Considering all the things, if we can't afford large number of Western 4.5 gen or 5th gen then what other option is left for us? It's only J-10 (Or JF-17 for the worst situation). It won't be hard to maintain even if economy goes down. It will be like 4.5 gen F-7. At least 3/4 will be necessary to get close to our mid-term 100 jet goal.

And J-10 didn't see any export success yet cause China didn't promote B and C block before. Suggesting J-31 is like suggesting a 5th gen F-7. Cheapest 5th gen but still costlier than J-10.

It's true that BAF can't afford more that types of fighter so i think there's no need to worry about 5th gen till 2030/32. For now we gotta strengthen AF with 4.5 fighter, SAM and better radar. Later we can induct a 5th gen as 3rd option if few amount.

Perhaps my writing is a mess but hope you get the picture.



Problem is they won't let you use it for offensive role and approval from congress/DoD for weapon sales takes time. If any internal problem arise that's also gonna be problem. Pakistan, Turkey, Iran, China are prime example not to rely on US completely.




No one was insulting Pakistan, talking like Indian and no BD member brought Pakistan here first. One Pakistani mentioned JF-17 as an offer and Basel got kinda riled up about it. I was unaware about Pakistan making aerial munitions and Basel didn't reply straight like you did. Thanks for the infos.



What do you think about EFT and J-10 combo? How about 2 squadrons of EFT and at least 3/4 squadrons of J-10 for trying to achieve BAF's mid-term plan of 100 jet? EFT can perform air superiority and maritime strike while J-10 form the back bone of BAF?

As I said you just need to be prepared if you want it to be used as offensive platform. You need to always stock up spare parts just like Pakistan is doing. FYI Pakistan is not under sanctions. Trump wants them to pay out of their own pockets instead of CSF Funds. Moreover this end user agreement doesn't cover aircrafts using US components like Tejas or FA50. While India may need permission from US to sell it to BD, it's the country which sells can put such restrictions.

 

[notorious_eagle]

What do you think about EFT and J-10 combo? How about 2 squadrons of EFT and at least 3/4 squadrons of J-10 for trying to achieve BAF's mid-term plan of 100 jet? EFT can perform air superiority and maritime strike while J-10 form the back bone of BAF?

They are very potent and effective combat platforms. But you need to build up a support infrastructure that would make these platforms absolutely ruthless. BAF needs to first invest in effective ground controlled radars, AWACS and then create an effective C4I network that allows all these Assets to speak to each other to create a comprehensive picture of the battlefield. You need to be able to look deep inside the enemy territory to muster your own response. In 1967, Israelis decimated 70% of the Egyptian Air Force before it could even take to the skies. Second, you need to invest in platforms that are dedicated for Electronic Warfare. In today's aviation combat, electronic warefare is the name of the game. Third, you would need to invest in hardened shelters to ensure your assets are protected if the enemy decides to launch overwhelming cruise missile strikes on your Airbases. Fourth, BAF would need to engage in massive training of not only its officers but the ground and support crew. That is why i said, it would take decades before BAF can build a force that could muster a credible defence against the IAF.

Overall, BAF would need to invest on force multipliers and build the necessary infrastructure to protect its assets. If you look at the PAF, its combat platforms such as JF17 and F16 are inferior to the SU30MKI, but what levels the playing field are the force multipliers that PAF can field. On Feb 27, it were the force multipliers that won the day for PAF as they injected steroids into the capabilities of the JF17's and F16's.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

As an example, if maritime operations is one of the roles it rules out the J-10 and most single engine platforms.

We have Mirage Vs and JF 17s in Maritime Role