Islamism ???

[FaujHistorian]

An Islamic state protects the rights of minorities. If or not the laws are implemented and practiced by the people is where it breaks down. We are facing a law enforcement and a social problem.
.

minority rights is relatively modern. Islamic states even the better ones like Umer-2 did not treat minorities as equals.


The only example (well large scale example) comes during middle part of Ottoman empire where Jews were given protection. But the same was not offered to Christians.

The problem perhaps is with the lack of concept of "citizenship" among tribal societies of the East.

 

[Kompromat]

minority rights is relatively modern. Islamic states even the better ones like Umer-2 did not treat minorities as equals.

There is always room for improvement. That model of govt as it was back then, is not implementable anymore.

 

[FaujHistorian]

There is always room for improvement. That model of govt as it was back then, is not implementable anymore.

Cannot improve if the philosophy has no concept of "citizenship".

 

[Kompromat]

You are wrong. You can think whatever you want but "tolerance", meaning non-Muslims are not killed outright, does not mean the same thing as non-Muslims having equal civil rights. In all of those glorious tolerant Islamic societies you think existed, non-Muslims could not equally serve in political roles, own property equally, practice their religion equally, and so on.

My answer to you is the same as yours to me, since you have left no middle ground in this argument.

'You are wrong. You can think whatever you want'

 

[TruthSeeker]

It would be instructive if all proponents of "Sharia law" for a nation state would take a look at the United Nations Charter's provisions, especially those on human rights. Ask yourselves if such a state would fulfill the obligations of a signatory to the UN Charter?

 

[FaujHistorian]

My answer to you is the same as yours to me,

Aero bhai

you know the origin of the concept of citizenship that is now being practiced in predominantly anglo-saxon societies?

It would be instructive if all proponents of "Sharia law" for a nation state would take a look at the United Nations Charter's provisions, especially those on human rights. Ask yourselves if such a state would fulfill the obligations of a signatory to the UN Charter?

Even other sects cannot enjoy protections. let alone non-Muslim minorities.

 

[Kompromat]

Cannot improve if the philosophy has no concept of "citizenship".

Not that it can't be developed. Societies that don't evolve die.

 

[qamar1990]

Last time I was in DC and took a cab. the guy was a Pakistani, we were stuck on the big ring road around DC during rush hours. so we started talking.

He talked just like you.

just like you

Had you stayed in Pakistan beyond 7 years old, without tasting the freedoms of American Republic

you will not be clamoring about mirages like Islamism

The problem is that you grew up far far far far far away from reality that Islamism brings.

like so many Pakistanis who "discover" Islam while living in the freedom of Western societies.

They just far far far away with rainbow colors in their eyes.

In case of many Pakistani-Americans living in USA (and I meet them during my trips over there), forget that

You have million man strong American troops to protect your freedoms.

So you sit in the safety and care of free society

and yet propose draconian stone age barbarity on us hapless Pakistanis.

you should be shameful.

really shamefull

i don't impose nor do i intend to impose anything on anybody.
if anything it is you who should shameful for trying to change a billion minds rather than your own.
the fact of the matter is that no matter where i grew up was still raised in a conservative muslim family just like yours, i have the same freedoms here that you do in pakistan. Nobody is stopping you from saying or doing what you want and you know that very well, especially in a city like karachi. All of us pakistanis know that in pakistan we have just as much freedom as any country but some people like you choose to lie and say we don't. i lived in pakistan for many years as well. there are few controversial laws that need to be looked at again but other than that i say your either making stuff up or you in afghanistan or something.

 

[TruthSeeker]

My answer to you is the same as yours to me, since you have left no middle ground in this argument.

'You are wrong. You can think whatever you want'

I was responding to qamar1990's post in which he condescendingly said that history wasn't my strong suit and that his points were indisputable. Both false (wrong). The "you" was qamar1990.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Not that it can't be developed. Societies that don't evolve die.

socities that get stuck with outdated un-changeable religious philosophies cannot change.

Read "reconstruction of Islamic thought". Poor Iqbal was sturggling with the same concept almost 100 years ago.

No solution back then
no solution now

because you cannot "put a grape vine on a tree of keeker".

...if you ever do, you will get every bunch of grapes totally punctured/injured.



Hope you appreciate my little bitsy reading of Punjabi sufis

I was responding to quamar1990's post in which he condescendingly said that history wasn't my strong suit and that his points were indisputable. Both false (wrong). The "you" was qamar1990.

I have met born-again-Christians during my visits to USA

I have also met born-again-Muslims ABCDs too.

both of them are confused lot.

especially born-again-Muslims of Pakistani variety.

poor thangs are trying to ride two boats and thus getting dunked in water every few feet.

 

[Kompromat]

It would be instructive if all proponents of "Sharia law" for a nation state would take a look at the United Nations Charter's provisions, especially those on human rights. Ask yourselves if such a state would fulfill the obligations of a signatory to the UN Charter?

You can have the best laws possible. Nothing will change until they are implemented & practiced.

US constitution was still in use when this was happening in the US.


A White Hotel owner, pouring acid into a pool being used by Blacks.

Change in America and S.Africa was brought by change in social attitudes. Even the best constitutions and laws cannot guarantee malpractice and denial of justice.

 

[FaujHistorian]

You can have the best laws possible. Nothing will change until they are implemented & practiced.

US constitution was still in use when this was happening in the US.


A White Hotel owner, pouring acid into a pool being used by Blacks.

View attachment 16023

View attachment 16024


Change in America and S.Africa was brought by change in social attitudes. Even the best constitutions and laws cannot guarantee malpractice and denial of justice.

Well that is not a good example for Pakistan.

Because American constitution at least guaranteed equality, freedom, and justice to majority whites.

No one can say that about majority in Pakistan.

Hope you understand

 

[Kompromat]

socities that get stuck with outdated un-changeable religious philosophies cannot change.

Read "reconstruction of Islamic thought". Poor Iqbal was sturggling with the same concept almost 100 years ago.

No solution back then
no solution now

because you cannot "put a grape vine on a tree of keeker".

...if you ever do, you will get every bunch of grapes totally punctured/injured.



Hope you appreciate my little bitsy reading of Punjabi sufis

I have my own thoughts on Iqbal's reconstruction.

Well that is not a good example for Pakistan.

Because American constitution at least guaranteed equality, freedom, and justice to majority whites.

No one can say that about majority in Pakistan.

Hope you understand

Constitution also changes with changes in society and its demand. For changing Pakistan, we need to change the society which is easier said than done.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Change in America and S.Africa was brought by change in social attitudes. Even the best constitutions and laws cannot guarantee malpractice and denial of justice.

Of course this is true. My question is really whether or not a "Sharia Constitution" can be written that, ipso facto, is non-discriminatory?

 

[qamar1990]

You are wrong. You can think whatever you want but "tolerance", meaning non-Muslims are not killed outright, does not mean the same thing as non-Muslims having equal civil rights. In all of those glorious tolerant Islamic societies you think existed, non-Muslims could not equally serve in political roles, own property equally, practice their religion equally, and so on.

bro please stop talking about something you clearly have no idea of.
i live am from a small village in pakistan near Kharian which is also a small city, in my village we have one ahmadi family who we con side non-muslims but we treat them the same as any muslim family. when i lived in the city in kharian there was one church for a few hundred christians and nobody has ever touched or hurt them, ever cursed at them for being christians.
your delusional your brainwashed by fox news. i know pakistan is just as tolerant as america, and i know there is intolerant fanatics in pakistan just like there is the KKK in america or REDNECK whites who will kill or beat up a muslim youth because Muslims were the prepertrators of 911.
non-muslims in pakistan own property, work and live freely, and have their churches and temples just like in europe or america.
however intolerance also exists in pakistan just like america or europe. the law and order in pakistan isn't as great as america yet so people get away with things easier.