Islam and science: The road to renewal - ECONOMIST

[Developereo]

Dear Developreo while there is always exploitation of mankind based whatever possible means like religion, fear of unknown etc etc, people from whatever religion they may be if they make such claims it should not be encouraged. Islam being the religion of these kind gets dragged into accusations and counter accusations. I would also feel the same as u if my beliefs are being attacked for the myopic ideas of a person who has only the religion as common thing between me and him.

However it doesn't mean u keep quite when such ridiculous statements are made right? Each religion has its own 'beliefs' on things. We shouldn't mix science and religion period.

Oh, I was in no way defending the ridiculous claims that the Quran contains hidden scientific truths.

Modern Muslim societies suffer from a host of maladies -- escapism being one of the worst. From dreams of Khilafat to this "hidden truths" nonsense, what they are basically saying is that those Muslims have given up on solving things the hard way and are looking for easy solutions.

The Quran claims to provide the right way to lead one's life in general terms. This includes principles of hygiene, diet, behavior and such rules. No one in their right mind believes that the Quran contains the molecular composition of Jupiter's atmosphere. This escapism is a sure sign of intellectual decay and, unfortunately, it is rife within the Muslim world.

 

[Contrarian]

Well, from what I understand, Southern claims of cultural superiority stretch back millenia, so Muslim rule is not really a factor.

Nope.
In earlier times - as in the cultural past - North India was far more advanced with respect to Science & Learning - and that includes Pakistan.

However today, South India is far ahead when it comes to University/Population ratio and the research work going on.

Then again, you can say that Bangalore and surrounding cities are the R&D hub of India. So it could also be a little advantage initially, but fortified by the Cluster effect of all the companies and govt opening research facilities there.

But this would be fact, that pre-Islamic North India was dominant in Learning, and Post Islamic South India is dominant in Learning.

 

[indushek]

Oh, I was in no way defending the ridiculous claims that the Quran contains hidden scientific truths.

Modern Muslim societies suffer from a host of maladies -- escapism being one of the worst. From dreams of Khilafat to this "hidden truths" nonsense, what they are basically saying is that those Muslims have given up on solving things the hard way and are looking for easy solutions.

The Quran claims to provide the right way to lead one's life in general terms. This includes principles of hygiene, diet, behavior and such rules. No one in their right mind believes that the Quran contains the molecular composition of Jupiter's atmosphere. This escapism is a sure sign of intellectual decay and, unfortunately, it is rife within the Muslim world.

I hope that this changes over the period as in future when the mankind is fighting for survival it is important that we all are on the same page. The talks of global warming, population explotion etc shows that in future we will be fighting for resources and a mankind with scientific bent of mind can find answers rather than fight.

 

[Gentelman]

Do you know anything about science?

Any darn thing?

Or you are just here to cut and paste stuff from Islamist webistes?



Let me ask you a simple question.


How do you accept a scientific discovery?

Do you read it in Mullah Mawdoodi's book?
Or Mullah Aziz tells you this?
Did you learn about theory of relativity from Ayatullah Khomeni?

Did you come to know about black holes from Imam Kaaba?

Because all these guys are the top guys to know Quran.

but none of them ever told any discovery BEFORE Einstiend told us about theory of relativety.

None of these Mullahs told us about black holes until American and European scientists told us about.

How many Mullahs have published papers on gene structure BEFORE the research was published in America?


Huh?

How many Mullahs?

I bet you won't find that on any Islamist website. none of them.


So please learn a thing or two about science before shaming yourself.

Thank you

who was Hazrat Ali(R.A)
Hazrat Usman??
Al Kharzmi
Ibn ul Haithem
Jabir Bin Hayyan
those allz were muslim scholors.....
hafiz e quran
muallem e hadis
even your country poet Faiz was a hafiz e quran about which you mullas claim he is kafir......
and now why are you turning your back towards quran??
those allz were quran verses and here it's point that relation of islam and quran.....
if quran had said allz that then allz are cleared...
why any mulla should be important???
its their personal life what they doo....
islam don't force you to learn science but lays stress on observation and research and thinking...
Islam too lays stress to pray and isnot forcing you......
Allah has all the knowledge and knowledge is Muslim's inheritance(hadis)...
soo how can u ignore it...
u seems to be really odd who can't understand such simple things....
wasnot Muahmmad made greatest teacher????

 

[anonymus]

OK.



Saudi Arabia never been colonised before, though 90% of the Muslim world was colonised.



Iran never been colonised, though 90% of the Muslim world was colonised.



Turkey never been colonised, though 90% of the Muslim world was colonised.

Huh ,

SA,Iran and Turkey were never colonialised yet 90% of Muslim world was colonialised.

Either you are overestimating the extent of muslim world or have have made the hash of logic.

It's hilarious to read the opportunistic and predictable Islam bashing by the usual suspects. What's even more interesting is the utter lack of a cogent argument displayed by these bigots.

The Currency of victimhood seems to be appreciating very fast and bringing you good returns.

So Faujhistorian taking on your ummah gang singlehandedly become islam bashing by "usual suspects".

Anyway this is a regulation half yearly thread.Last thread on same issue was

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/176302-r-d-neglected-muslim-countries.html

Some people has tendancy to repeat argument and sell old wine in new bottle.

 

[Azazel]

Science is religion in Islam...

What science are you talking about.

Modern science is all based on Quran...

Rubbish.Just another hyperbolic statement.

Science can't disprove any of the thing written in Quran.

You can't disprove the existence of a teapot orbiting sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars(Google Russell's teapot theory).Does that mean it is true.The burden of proof lies wit you not us.

Quran is a book which state to think how all these things happened.....

I agree,So is the science,but both take very different routes and they cannot be mixed.Both are like oil and water.

and in case of Quran it challenge you to disprove anything of it till this world is in it state....

Read 3rd reply

and it also challenges you to create three verses like Quran.....

Clearly even if somebody manages to created such verses,you will call him a blasphemer and will execute him.Besides what's the point??Creating Quran like verses has nothing to do with science.

if you had read quran you would have known that Quran is all science and all about human beings.....

I've read Quran and I urge you to study science,Methodology of studying Quran and science are very different.For example,recently some scientists proposed the existence of neutrinos which travels faster than light,whole theory questioned very fundamentals particle physics and theory of relativity.But instead of issuing fatwa against them,scientific community conducted experiment and later come to the conclusion that neutrino speed is in agreement with the speed of light.That's how science works and religion will never function that way.That's why religion and science will always be like oil and water.

 

[Azazel]

I beg to differ here. Religion is not for the people who claim to know everything but for the people who seek to know truth in other word everything. This is what the sages are doing for years after years. To experience the truth is their sole motto.The kind of investigation and reasoning we apply to science and to the outer knowledge, let it be applied to the science of religion too. If that investigation disapproves my religion let me get ready to throw away my superstitions and useless beliefs.

All modern Religion are based on dogmas.These core principles that must be upheld by all believers of that religion.Any proposed disputation or revision effectively means that a person no longer accepts the given religion as his or her own.As I said earlier None of these dogmas can be proved or disproved by Scientific method.Its similar to celestial teapot or the flying sphegatti monster.

The urge for every scientific invention is just the same as the urge to discover the truth. The only difference is in the later method people uses their mind and inner senses to investigate the truth that science is still working to define. Both can move parallel without any clashes if we leave our pride and complacency of this modern world for a moment.

I agree with the parallel part.That's what I said earlier.

 

[Wright]

I think different groups prioritize things differently. For muslims its more about being religious, and living simple. They tend not to be into havy tool usage and making money. The leaders of the muslim world (Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc) have oil and thus no need to really be focued on producing products and services to make money like resource barren Japan and Korea do.

In short necessity breeds innovation. Muslims are content where they are and that is what matters in the end.

I recall a recent suvey which stated Pakistani's are among the happiest people in the world. The same cannot be said for many developed nations like Japan which experiance high rates of suicide and elementry school bullying.

 

[notsuperstitious]

@Azazel, are you a Muslim? (I ask because you have read Quran). Or was that just curiosity?

 

[Azazel]

@Azazel, are you a Muslim? (I ask because you have read Quran). Or was that just curiosity?

My father is.I don't count myself in.

 

[Azazel]

I think different groups prioritize things differently. For muslims its more about being religious, and living simple. They tend not to be into havy tool usage and making money. The leaders of the muslim world (Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc) have oil and thus no need to really be focued on producing products and services to make money like resource barren Japan and Korea do.

In short necessity breeds innovation. Muslims are content where they are and that is what matters in the end.

I recall a recent suvey which stated Pakistani's are among the happiest people in the world. The same cannot be said for many developed nations like Japan which experiance high rates of suicide and elementry school bullying.

Dear If you are talking about Happy Planet Index,then it was not a survey of happiest people in the world.It was the survey of the happiest country in the world in terms of human well-being and environmental impact.

 

[Albatross]

@Azazel @Wright @fateh71 @Developereo @indushek @Contrarian @haviZsultan Very nice thread and I would agree that since the mongol leader hulago burnt or threw thousands of books in Tigris (According to historians the river turned blue due to inks of books) in baghdad (which was the centre of muslim world) in 1258 the connection between muslims and science was broken as the 1001 inventions we talk about are all of the earlier times.
And then some false translations of religion did keep muslims away from science and development our prophet emphasize a lot on learning plus we have a divine books which in itself hints at things which science has recently discovered and many that it hasnt discovered yet I will mention a few just for the sake of the argument.

Lying and Movement

There was a cruel oppressive tribal leader named Abu Jahl who lived during the time of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). God revealed a verse of the Quran to warn him:

No Indeed! If he does not stop, We will seize him by the forehead, his lying, sinful forehead. [96:15-16]

God does not call this person a liar, but calls his forehead (the front part of the brain) ‘lying’ and ‘sinful’, and warns him to stop.

This verse is significant for two reasons. The first is that the front part of our brain is responsible for voluntary movement [14] .This is known as the frontal lobe. A book titled ‘Essentials of Anatomy and Physiology’ which includes the results of research on the functions of this area states: The motivation and the foresight to plan and initiate movements occur in the anterior portion of the frontal lobes, the prefrontal area [ Rod R. Seeley, Essentials of Anatomy & Physiology]. The part of the brain that is responsible for movement is said to be seized if the man does not stop.

Secondly, numerous studies have shown that this same region (frontal lobe) is responsible for the lying function of the brain http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/20/1/205.full.pdf.One such study at the University of Pennsylvania in which volunteers were asked questions during a computerized interrogation, it was found that when the volunteers were lying there was significantly increased activity in the prefrontal and premotor cortices (frontal lobe region) Diogenes' New Lamp » American Scientist.

The front part of the brain is responsible for movement and lying. The Quran links movement and lying to this area. These functions of the frontal lobe were discovered with medical imaging equipment which was developed in the 20th century.

Pain Receptors

For a long time it was thought that the sense of feeling and pain was dependent on the brain. However it has been discovered that there are pain receptors present in the skin [ Michael Darmon, Molecular Biology of the Skin: The Keratinocyte]. Without these pain receptors, a person would not be able to feel pain.

Consider the following verse on pain:

We shall send those who reject Our revelations to the (Hell) Fire. When their skins have been burned away, We shall replace them with new ones so that they may continue to feel the pain: God is Almighty, All-Wise. [4:56]

God tells the people who reject his message that when they are in Hell and their skins are burnt off (so they can’t feel any pain), he will give them new skins so that they continue to feel the pain.

The Quran makes it clear that pain is dependent upon on the skin. The discovery of pain receptors in the skin is a fairly recent discovery for Biology.


Mountain as stakes
The Quran draws our attention to a very important characteristic of mountains:

Did We not make the earth a resting place? And the mountains as stakes? [78:6-7]

The Quran indicates that mountains have deep roots by using the word stakes to describe them. In fact mountains do have deep roots [Terry A. Hicks, How Do Mountains Form?], and the word stakes is an accurate description for them. A book titled ‘Earth’ by Geophysicist Frank Press explains that mountains are like stakes, and are buried deep under the surface of the earth [ Frank Press and Raymond Siever, Earth].Mount Everest (pictured below), the height of which is approximately 9 km above ground, has a root deeper than 125 km.

The fact that mountains have deep ‘stake’ like roots was not known, until after the development of the theory of plate tectonics in the beginning of the 20th century [ Naomi Oreskes, Plate Tectonics: An Insider’s History Of The Modern Theory Of The Earth].

It indeed is our fault that we dont follow whats said to us and dont even read our holy book in a way to understand it Its just read to earn nekian and thats it without going into its meaning and implications and to add on we have some crazy mullahs who believes in propagates things Islam never taught and are totally against logic and reason something Islam is built on.

 

[Azazel]

@Albatross,The Quran is not scientific. It has contradictions. Lot of the verses in it contradict science. For example,

1) According to Holy Quran mountains prevent earthquake or the shaking of the earth.In Sura Al Al-Anbiyaa (Chapter 21 verse# 31)
It says
" And We have placed on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with them"

If Mountains are there to stop the earth from shaking, then why do we see so many earthquakes in mountainous regions?. For example, Japan is a mountainous zone but it has 1500 earthquakes every year.'Shaking of the earth' and earth quakes mean the same thing right? Mountains are created because of the movement of tectonic plates. They do not stablize the earth or prevent shaking of the earth. This verse is clearly in error

2) The Quran In Sura Al Mulk (Chapter 67) Ayaat # 5 it says

"And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps,
and we have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans, ... "

So the stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? In order to not let them eavesdrop on the heavenly council?

The first ayaat says stars are lamps that is fine but lamps (stars) are not thrown at devils


3) Why does the Quran say Allah prevents the sky from falling into the earth?
The Holy Quran in Sura Al Hajj ( chapter 22 verse# 65) says

Pickthall:He holdeth back the heaven from falling on the earth unless by His leave. Lo! Allah is, for mankind, Full of Pity, Merciful.

As me know the sky is vast. So how can it fall into the earth?This sounds absurd.

4) According to the Quran honey comes from the body of the bee.
In Sura an Nahl An Nahl (chapter 16 verse # 69) says

YUSUFALI: Then to eat of all the produce (of the earth), and find with skill the spacious paths of its Lord: there issues from within their bodies a drink of varying colours, wherein is healing for men.

A bee makes honey from the collected then chewed up pollen from plants. The bee never actually swallows and or digests the pollen. Honey does not come from the body of the bee. The bees chew their nectar through their mouth. After that nectar is dried out in the honeycomb and honey is formed. The verse in Quran is scientifically incorrect.

These are only some of the cases,of course I think many of these verses may even have alternate translations which actually proves that Quranic verses could be easily twisted and claim that it confirms all scientific achievement.But fact of the matter is Quran by no means a scientific text,it part of a faith which is established on the basis of certain Dogmas rather scientific principles.

There is nothing scientific about the Quran, no matter how much you distort, twist, and “re-interpret" the available scientific data, so that you can accommodate your theories about the Quran as scientific.

First mistake:In science we don’t start with a theory and then try to find data to support that theory. Instead, we first gather data through observation, and then we see which theory explains best the data.


Now what certain Muslim apologists do is the total opposite: you have the “theory” and then you try to find the data that — YOU think — support your theory. That’s an entirely unscientific endeavor.

By doing so you show that you don’t understand science, the subject that you are trying so hard to subjugate under your religious yoke.

Confirmation bias?? Ain't it funny that if you look hard enough at any text with the intent of finding something that appears remotely "scientific" or "miraculous" you'll find it. Says more about your desperation than about the Divinity of the text.

What my trying to convey is:Religion and Science fundamentally work in different ways.

Science: based on reason and experiments. It looks at the world and sees what is there. It's based on a rigorous method of working: the scientific method. It constantly questions itself: it even invites other scientists to try and break known theories. It observes first and makes conclusions later. Experiments have to be repeated, theories have to be tested and published. It has a large body of different technologies that are based upon it. Based on doubt. Tries to find out something about the nature of reality. Body of knowledge keeps growing.

Religion: based on dogma. People going against the main beliefs of religion are considered heretics. It does not rely on the same sort of proof as required for the scientific method. It covers up the things that contradict it, or tries to explain them with the dogmas in mind. Based on faith.(and faith alone). Nature isn't that important, while God, a non proven entity is.

So don't try to mix both,it will only hurt both religion and science and will lead to unnecessary conflicts.

 

[Albatross]

1) According to Holy Quran mountains prevent earthquake or the shaking of the earth.In Sura Al Al-Anbiyaa (Chapter 21 verse# 31)
It says
" And We have placed on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with them"[/B]

If Mountains are there to stop the earth from shaking, then why do we see so many earthquakes in mountainous regions?. For example, Japan is a mountainous zone but it has 1500 earthquakes every year.'Shaking of the earth' and earth quakes mean the same thing right? Mountains are created because of the movement of tectonic plates. They do not stablize the earth or prevent shaking of the earth. This verse is clearly in error

Mountains are there to support earth as a whole and just like we use iron rods in cement blocks to give them support with out which it wouldnt have been possible to build a structure.
And these quakes are due to tectonic movements of plates and has nothing to do with mountains.
2) The Quran In Sura Al Mulk (Chapter 67) Ayaat # 5 it says

"

And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps,
and we have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans, ... "

So the stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? In order to not let them eavesdrop on the heavenly council?

The first ayaat says stars are lamps that is fine but lamps (stars) are not thrown at devils

Who knows what kind of lamps are those? You belong to a creation whose fellow were used to laugh at the concept of flying machines just 150 years ago.

3) Why does the Quran say Allah prevents the sky from falling into the earth?
The Holy Quran in Sura Al Hajj ( chapter 22 verse# 65) says

Pickthall:He holdeth back the heaven from falling on the earth unless by His leave. Lo! Allah is, for mankind, Full of Pity, Merciful.

As me know the sky is vast. So how can it fall into the earth?This sounds absurd.

One needs to learn between lines to understand this heavenly book and people like you who finds it hard to read even a course book can never grasp the vastness of Quran.

[/Q
4) According to the Quran honey comes from the body of the bee.
In Sura an Nahl An Nahl (chapter 16 verse # 69) says

YUSUFALI: Then to eat of all the produce (of the earth), and find with skill the spacious paths of its Lord: there issues from within their bodies a drink of varying colours, wherein is healing for men.

A bee makes honey from the collected then chewed up pollen from plants. The bee never actually swallows and or digests the pollen. Honey does not come from the body of the bee. The bees chew their nectar through their mouth. After that nectar is dried out in the honeycomb and honey is formed. The verse in Quran is scientifically incorrect.[/COLOR]

Bees mouth and honeycomb is that out of their body???

These are only some of the cases,of course I think many of these verses may even have alternate translations which actually proves that Quranic verses could be easily twisted and claim that it confirms all scientific achievement.But fact of the matter is Quran by no means a scientific text,it part of a faith which is established on the basis of certain Dogmas rather scientific principles.

You clearly are some one who cant see things right there infront of you but can believe that there is a God of sunday and another one for monday.

 

[Albatross]

@Azazel I know you are a nonbeliever and will always remain so but its my duty to tell you about the knowledge we all have in Quran.

For likes of you who says we try to manipulate things to prove scientific nature of Quran just reply to this.

1) He creates you stage by stage in your mothers' wombs in threefold darkness. That is Allah, your Lord. Sovereignty is His. There is no god but Him. So what has made you deviate? (Qur'an, 39:6)

The expression "fee thulumatin thalathin," translated into English as "a threefold darkness," indicates three dark regions involved during the development of the embryo. These are:

The darkness of the abdomen

The darkness of the womb

The darkness of the placenta.

We came to know about these three layers only a few decades how it came in Quran 1400 years ago?



2)Iron is not natural to the earth. It did not form on the earth but came down to earth from outer space. This may sound strange but it’s true. Scientists have found that billions of years ago the earth was stuck by meteorites. These meteorites were carrying Iron from distant stars which had exploded [ M. E. Walrath, History of the Earth’s Formation].

The Quran says the following on the origin of Iron:

We sent down Iron with its great inherent strength and its many benefits for humankind [57:25]

God uses the words ‘sent down’ for Iron. It is clear from the verse that Iron is not an earthly material, but was sent down for the benefit of humanity. The fact that Iron came down to earth from outer space, is something which could not be known by the primitive science of the 7th century

I have hundreds of more examples where Quran is giving us knowledge of earth and universe which ofcourse only give a base line rest research we have to do but the hints are very strong and overwhelming.