Islam and science: The road to renewal - ECONOMIST

[Azazel]

You clearly are some one who cant see things right there infront of you but can believe that there is a God of sunday and another one for monday.

I don't believe in a personal or Anthropomorphic God nor the Gods of Sunday or Monday,I don't believe in God's creation of Humans and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.If there is any God I believe in it must be an abstract and impersonal entity.Much like Pantheism.

I am not interested in going in to a discussion on interpreting Quranic verses since its not my field of interest.But What I try to point out is your attempt to connect Quran and Science is a bad practice.Both religion and science work in different ways and it should be kept apart.Other wise it will hurt only religion and science often.Read this part of my posts.

Science: based on reason and experiments. It looks at the world and sees what is there. It's based on a rigorous method of working: the scientific method. It constantly questions itself: it even invites other scientists to try and break known theories. It observes first and makes conclusions later. Experiments have to be repeated, theories have to be tested and published. It has a large body of different technologies that are based upon it. Based on doubt. Tries to find out something about the nature of reality. Body of knowledge keeps growing.

Religion: based on dogma. People going against the main beliefs of religion are considered heretics. It does not rely on the same sort of proof as required for the scientific method. It covers up the things that contradict it, or tries to explain them with the dogmas in mind. Based on faith.(and faith alone). Nature isn't that important, while God, a non proven entity is.

 

[Albatross]

@Azazel

Its all different and its all one but I know its surely difficult for you to grab this concept anyways I proved to you in my last post that Quran indeed gives us a lots of knowledge about space,earth,anatomy and variety of other aspects of our life.It tells us the baseline and then its upto us to research and find out the whole picture now just Allah said that iron was sent down to earth from outside .Now its upto to investigate us where from and like iron did other metals also came from outside? from where and this cycle goes on and the basic aim of telling these one liners in Quran was to prove to people the authenticity of Allah and his book and to tell you who your creator is and whats he wants from you and why were you created.


And being a man of this age I am sure you know that the best way to operate a machine is to follow its manufacturer guidelines.

@Topic Well religion at least Islam is very much about learning and research and gives you quite a good amount of food of thought.

anyways you cant argue about the scientific nature of Quranic verses as you know it will get you nowhere.

 

[Zarvan]

@Albatross,The Quran is not scientific. It has contradictions. Lot of the verses in it contradict science. For example,

1) According to Holy Quran mountains prevent earthquake or the shaking of the earth.In Sura Al Al-Anbiyaa (Chapter 21 verse# 31)
It says
" And We have placed on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with them"

If Mountains are there to stop the earth from shaking, then why do we see so many earthquakes in mountainous regions?. For example, Japan is a mountainous zone but it has 1500 earthquakes every year.'Shaking of the earth' and earth quakes mean the same thing right? Mountains are created because of the movement of tectonic plates. They do not stablize the earth or prevent shaking of the earth. This verse is clearly in error

2) The Quran In Sura Al Mulk (Chapter 67) Ayaat # 5 it says

"And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps,
and we have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans, ... "

So the stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? In order to not let them eavesdrop on the heavenly council?

The first ayaat says stars are lamps that is fine but lamps (stars) are not thrown at devils


3) Why does the Quran say Allah prevents the sky from falling into the earth?
The Holy Quran in Sura Al Hajj ( chapter 22 verse# 65) says

Pickthall:He holdeth back the heaven from falling on the earth unless by His leave. Lo! Allah is, for mankind, Full of Pity, Merciful.

As me know the sky is vast. So how can it fall into the earth?This sounds absurd.

4) According to the Quran honey comes from the body of the bee.
In Sura an Nahl An Nahl (chapter 16 verse # 69) says

YUSUFALI: Then to eat of all the produce (of the earth), and find with skill the spacious paths of its Lord: there issues from within their bodies a drink of varying colours, wherein is healing for men.

A bee makes honey from the collected then chewed up pollen from plants. The bee never actually swallows and or digests the pollen. Honey does not come from the body of the bee. The bees chew their nectar through their mouth. After that nectar is dried out in the honeycomb and honey is formed. The verse in Quran is scientifically incorrect.

These are only some of the cases,of course I think many of these verses may even have alternate translations which actually proves that Quranic verses could be easily twisted and claim that it confirms all scientific achievement.But fact of the matter is Quran by no means a scientific text,it part of a faith which is established on the basis of certain Dogmas rather scientific principles.

There is nothing scientific about the Quran, no matter how much you distort, twist, and “re-interpret" the available scientific data, so that you can accommodate your theories about the Quran as scientific.

First mistake:In science we don’t start with a theory and then try to find data to support that theory. Instead, we first gather data through observation, and then we see which theory explains best the data.


Now what certain Muslim apologists do is the total opposite: you have the “theory” and then you try to find the data that — YOU think — support your theory. That’s an entirely unscientific endeavor.

By doing so you show that you don’t understand science, the subject that you are trying so hard to subjugate under your religious yoke.

Confirmation bias?? Ain't it funny that if you look hard enough at any text with the intent of finding something that appears remotely "scientific" or "miraculous" you'll find it. Says more about your desperation than about the Divinity of the text.

What my trying to convey is:Religion and Science fundamentally work in different ways.

Science: based on reason and experiments. It looks at the world and sees what is there. It's based on a rigorous method of working: the scientific method. It constantly questions itself: it even invites other scientists to try and break known theories. It observes first and makes conclusions later. Experiments have to be repeated, theories have to be tested and published. It has a large body of different technologies that are based upon it. Based on doubt. Tries to find out something about the nature of reality. Body of knowledge keeps growing.

Religion: based on dogma. People going against the main beliefs of religion are considered heretics. It does not rely on the same sort of proof as required for the scientific method. It covers up the things that contradict it, or tries to explain them with the dogmas in mind. Based on faith.(and faith alone). Nature isn't that important, while God, a non proven entity is.

So don't try to mix both,it will only hurt both religion and science and will lead to unnecessary conflicts.

Quran has nothing agaisnt Science Quran has facts which are proved by science and will be proved more

 

[Azazel]

2)Iron is not natural to the earth. It did not form on the earth but came down to earth from outer space. This may sound strange but it’s true. Scientists have found that billions of years ago the earth was stuck by meteorites. These meteorites were carrying Iron from distant stars which had exploded [ M. E. Walrath, History of the Earth’s Formation].

The Quran says the following on the origin of Iron:

We sent down Iron with its great inherent strength and its many benefits for humankind [57:25]

God uses the words ‘sent down’ for Iron. It is clear from the verse that Iron is not an earthly material, but was sent down for the benefit of humanity. The fact that Iron came down to earth from outer space, is something which could not be known by the primitive science of the 7th century[/color][/b]

I have hundreds of more examples where Quran is giving us knowledge of earth and universe which ofcourse only give a base line rest research we have to do but the hints are very strong and overwhelming.

I will start with the Iron part.This has debunked many times.
Metallic or native iron is rarely found on the surface of the Earth because it tends to oxidize, but its oxides are pervasive and represent the primary ores. While it makes up about 5% of the Earth's crust, both the Earth's inner and outer core are believed to consist largely of an iron-nickel alloy constituting 35% of the mass of the Earth as a whole.So presumably in pre historic days the main source of Iron was from meteorites.This is no heavenly miracle,this happens very often(As you may have noticed One of such happened today).

Even during the prehistoric days humans had the knowledge of Iron,Ancient Egyptians named meteoritic iron as Ba-En-Pet which translate as metal of the heavens or Ore of the sky at around 3000BC.Plutarch also quotes Manetho as being able to differentiate between magnetic and non magnetic Iron naming them as "Bone of Osiris" and the latter "Bone of Typhon" 300BC..Also Meteorite based Iron are well known to Chinese (1400BCE),Sumerians and Babylonians (earlier than 1000BCE),Greeks and Romans (800BCE).

None of these came from Quran,These are no revelations or miracles from Quran these are well known facts.If Indeed Quran is talking about formation of Iron as by product of Supernova explosions.They why don't It talk about Nuclear fusion and why no revelation of the science behind.In conclusion, the best case scenario for the claim is that the Quran accurately explained information known throughout the local region,for the several thousands years prior to Quran.

 

[SarkarRaj]

well it's never been part of Islamic world , instated of science that are replaced by sharia department in Islamic universities

 

[Azazel]

well it's never been part of Islamic world , instated of science that are replaced by sharia department in Islamic universities

Dumba$$,don't ruin the thread by your flame baits.

 

[Albatross]

@Azazel

So you think people back in history used meteorites from space to get Iron..Please quote some reference from some book and give the source as well..

you are silent about pregnant mothers three layers though or you think that was also a common knowledge back then .

And what would you say about this ...People knew it too right may be from 5000/6000 BC ..

Water is essential for all living things. We all know that water is vital to life but the Quran makes a very unusual claim:

[size=+2]We made every living thing from water? Will they not believe? [21:30][/size]

In this verse water is pointed out as the origin of all life. All living things are made of cells. We now know that cells are mostly made up of water . For example, 80% of the cytoplasm (basic cell material) of a standard animal cell is described as water in biology textbooks.

The fact that living things consist mostly of water was discovered only after the invention of the microscope. In the deserts of Arabia, the last thing someone would have guessed is that all life came from water.

This is about people like you ..WILL THEY NOT BELIEVE IT..

 

[SarkarRaj]

Quran has nothing agaisnt Science Quran has facts which are proved by science and will be proved more

well it shows that how ignorant you are , science has nothing to do with any religious scriptures and at least not Islamic scripture.

you are those fanatic mullahs according to whom all scientific theories are proved in quran but they can't answer why Muslims are so backward in science . ISLAM is most Anti-science religion.

 

[Zarvan]

well it shows that how ignorant you are , science has nothing to do with any religious scriptures and at least not Islamic scripture.

you are those fanatic mullahs according to whom all scientific theories are proved in quran but they can't answer why Muslims are so backward in science . ISLAM is most Anti-science religion.

Sir because Muslims are backward in science because Muslim leaders are corrupt and have not invested in education they are busy in making money buying cars spending on women and makin huge homes Quran is book of guidance but contain some scientific facts but Abu Juhals and those who don't know about Quran only speak ****

well it shows that how ignorant you are , science has nothing to do with any religious scriptures and at least not Islamic scripture.

you are those fanatic mullahs according to whom all scientific theories are proved in quran but they can't answer why Muslims are so backward in science . ISLAM is most Anti-science religion.

Islam supports the science the most but ignorant enemies of Islam only talk ****

 

[Azazel]

@Azazel I know you are a nonbeliever and will always remain so but its my duty to tell you about the knowledge we all have in Quran.

For likes of you who says we try to manipulate things to prove scientific nature of Quran just reply to this.

1) He creates you stage by stage in your mothers' wombs in threefold darkness. That is Allah, your Lord. Sovereignty is His. There is no god but Him. So what has made you deviate? (Qur'an, 39:6)

The expression "fee thulumatin thalathin," translated into English as "a threefold darkness," indicates three dark regions involved during the development of the embryo. These are:

The darkness of the abdomen

The darkness of the womb

The darkness of the placenta.

We came to know about these three layers only a few decades how it came in Quran 1400 years ago?

I've no idea what you are trying to say here,This by no means even resemble the process of embryogenesis as it has ben explained by the modern science.Just another desperate attempt to fit the theory by twisting the interpretation of Quranic verses.
Embryogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Irfan Baloch]

I don't believe in a personal or Anthropomorphic God nor the Gods of Sunday or Monday,I don't believe in God's creation of Humans

its self contradictory statement. In the west now the denial of god or disbelief in higher deity or deities itself is now classed as a belief system

specially because such people aim to thrust their "NON-belief in the most unrelated discussions, in the town centres in pleasent public or private gathering and make the whole atmosphere similar to Evangelic preaching crusade.

 

[Albatross]

I've no idea what you are trying to say here,This by no means even resemble the process of embryogenesis as it has ben explained by the modern science.Just another desperate attempt to fit the theory by twisting the interpretation of Quranic verses.
Embryogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

okay I wasnt talking about the embyogenisis as it would have required a whole book but as I said Quran mentioned in one liners many important things.. And the above mentioned three protective layers was just one of them and I was asking you how can someone know those details that there are three layers protecting an embryo inside a mother back then ? And here is some more..

[size=+1][We] then formed the drop into a clot and formed the clot into a lump and formed the lump into bones and clothed the bones in flesh; and then brought him into being as another creature. Blessed be Allah, the Best of Creators! (Qur'an, 23:14)[/size]

Wont you call it the knowledge of present day biology?

And yeah what about water as I mentioned in my last post ..Thats also a very common knowledge back then right...

Give me some proof of anyother book of that age talking about these details..I am still waiting for that iron ore claim of yours

You are making fun of your intellect by arguing with these lame words atleast say something solid .Some logic , some reason some proof??? You are only motivated by your belief that there is no Allah and you are your own God as thats the easy way?

 

[Azazel]

its self contradictory statement. In the west now the denial of god or disbelief in higher deity or deities itself is now classed as a belief system

specially because such people aim to thrust their "NON-belief in the most unrelated discussions, in the town centres in pleasent public or private gathering and make the whole atmosphere similar to Evangelic preaching crusade.

Tell me what do you mean by a belief system???I understand that various people have various perception on this,I want your opinion.

 

[Dubious]

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Religion - becomes strong by solidifying old myths and traditions

Science - becomes strong by destroying and superseding old myths and traditions.


Religion and science are like oil and water.

They cannot mix and should not be mixed.


Thus Islam as a religion cannot be mixed with science (period).

@FaujHistorian I beg to differ

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." So said Albert Einstein

 

[Albatross]

Tell me what do you mean by a belief system???I understand that various people have various perception on this,I want your opinion.

To me a belief system is what we humans make to answer some of our very basic questions?

Where from we came? why we exist,purpose of our existence ? Where will we go once we die or its only this? Is there any supreme being ? was this universe made by itself or it was made by someone else? Is there some one who controls everything or its all random? whats there outside this planet? what are these stars and sun?

Whats your take on that dear? BTW I can see your silence regarding Quran about water and a little embryogeneis ?