Islam and science: The road to renewal - ECONOMIST

[Developereo]

I wish Mr hoodbhoy was an Indian. we need scientist like him who is not only in lab, but out in the public domain, fighting a war agaist superstition.

No, you don't.

The man is a misogynist bigot who will say ANYTHING and everything to try and schlep himself to a Western audience. If he was Indian, you can by 100% sure, he would trash India and Hinduism at every opportunity for a buck.

 

[FaujHistorian]

No, you don't.

The man is a misogynist bigot who will say ANYTHING and everything to try and schlep himself to a Western audience. If he was Indian, you can by 100% sure, he would trash India and Hinduism at every opportunity for a buck.

Hmm.

DP sahib,

This is news for many of us.

Since when Prof. Hoodbhoy has been declared a misogynist meaning someone who hates women.

Are you sure?


peace

 

[Gentelman]

Most respectfully Sir,

Let's pick the #6 first.

Millions and millions of Muslims have been reading Quran, and not just reading but remembering this holy book by heart (That includes pretty much all the member of my family).

Honestly, after all that reading, and learning by heart, none of the scientific theories have come out from any verse in Quran in the last 500+ years.

Care to explain why?

Can you quote one research paper (peer reviewed) that says, oh well Mr. Watson, we have made this wonderful discovery based on verse xyz of Quran. Here, see? Here it is. Why can't you see? You probably need new glasses.


Us Muslims have a bad habit of stealing discoveries of others and saying Oh Abdullah, this thing is in Quran also.

But if it was, why the heck Abdullah didn't discover it, and Einstein did?

Do you have to be Einstein to understand this basic fact?


And

Oh by the way,

why on earth you mix Quran (that is to be true forever) with science that changes every day?


Why? oh Why?


So I urge you not to drag Quran through mud of science.

Quran serves spiritual purposes

Science? Well leave the darn science to its own shenanigans please


Thank you

i actually feel soory for you......
soo who told before advent of astronomy that everything revolves around other thing and now your modern science is accepting that sun also is revolving..
before this people think that sun is stationary...
soo Islam didnot told ya the difference between those who lays eggs and those who give birth...
all the process of birth is written in Quran....
Quran told ya that Water is much more than land almost 3/4th...
and its not Quran's blame that you couldnot understand what is quran saying...
All the waqia-e-mairage if you thought than you had given mass-energy equation...
who told ya that there are also earthquake..??
there are rains and what things are good for you and what are bad.. .
you were told to think..
to do research..
Quran told you everything if you didnot researched than is it Qurans mistake??
surah-e-qahf told you allz about hibernation bt ever any muslim experimented???
"Behold! In the creation of the heavens
and the earth; in the alternation of the
night and the day; in the sailing of ships
through the ocean, for the profit of
mankind; in the rain which Allah sends
down from the skies, and the life which
He gives therewith to an earth that is
dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He
scatters through the earth; in the change
of the winds, and the clouds which they
trail like their slaves between the sky and
the earth; here indeed are Signs for a
people that are wise" (Quran 2:164)
For a book revealed in the 7th century
C.E., the Quran contains many
scientifically-accurate statements. Among
them..
wt about them?????
what are these if quran is not science??
"Do not the unbelievers see that the
heavens and the earth were joined
together, then We split them apart? And
We made from water every living
thing…" (21:30).
"And Allah has created every animal from
water. Of them there are some that
creep on their bellies, some that walk on
two legs, and some that walk on
four..." (24:45)
"See they not how Allah originates
creation, then repeats it? Truly that is
easy for Allah" (29:19).
Astronomy
"It is He Who created the night and the
day, and the sun and the moon. All (the
celestial bodies) swim along, each in its
rounded course" (21:33).
"It is not permitted for the sun to catch
up to the moon, nor can the night
outstrip the day. Each just swims along in
its own orbit" (36:40).
"He created the heavens and the earth in
true proportions. He makes the night
overlap the day, and the day overlap the
night. He has subjected the sun and the
moon to His law; each one follows a
course for a time appointed..." (39:5).
"The sun and the moon follow courses
exactly computed" (55:5).
Geology
"You see the mountains and think they
are firmly fixed. But they pass away just
as the clouds pass away. Such is the
artistry of Allah, Who disposes of all things
in perfect order" (27:88).
Fetal Development
"Man We did create from a quintessence
of clay. Then we placed him as a drop of
sperm in a place of rest, firmly fixed. Then
We made the sperm into a clot of
congealed blood. Then out of that clot We
made a fetus lump. Then We made out of
that lump bones, and clothed the bones
with flesh. Then We developed out of it
another creature. So blessed be Allah, the
Best to create!" (23:12-14).
"But He fashioned him in due proportion,
and breathed into him of His spirit. And
He gave you hearing, and sight, and
understanding" (32:9).
"That He did create the pairs, male and
female, from a sperm-drop when lodged
in its place" (53:45-46).
"Was he not a drop of sperm emitted,
then did he become a leach-like clot.
Then did Allah make and fashion him in
due proportion. And of him He made two
sexes, male and female" (75:37-39).
"He makes you in the wombs of your
mothers in stages, one after another, in
three veils of darkness" (39:6).

 

[Developereo]

It's hilarious to read the opportunistic and predictable Islam bashing by the usual suspects. What's even more interesting is the utter lack of a cogent argument displayed by these bigots.

Let's take a look at the modern world for a second. Africa and South America don't product much scientific output, yet no one is blaming Christianity for it. South East Asia and, until recently, China, didn't produce scientific output, but no one is blaming Buddhism. Indians love to remind us that Islamic rule only extended to Northern India, yet Southern India, free from the Islamic "yoke" didn't produce much scientific output for centuries, yet no one is blaming Hinduism for it.

So, leaving preconceived bigotry and agendas, aside, what is going on?

The answer is that, throughout history, there has been a quiet alliance between the political ruling classes and the clergy (of all religions). The clergy "ordained" the king as having divine right to rule, and the rulers returned the favor by elevating the clergy to a privileged position. The important point, is that the power lies with the political elite, not the clergy itself: the clergy buys its favors in exchange for serving the rulers' agenda.

All this changed during the Renaissance in Europe. The Renaissance happened, not because the Church weakened by itself, but because the secular rulers decided that their best interests were served by a populace that was competitive in science, technology, the arts, etc. It was the secular rulers who made the Church irrelevant and elevated the intellectual classes to eminence.

The same dynamic holds today around the world. In much of the world, including the Islamic world, the ruling elite are scared to loosen their hold on power. Rather than face the uncertain world of progress and freedom, they hold on the proven patterns of control, i.e. through the clergy. The fault, then, is not the clergy's -- they are merely a tool used by the corrupt political elite.

If and when the ruling elite decides that their best interests are served by an educated, competitive populace, then you will see these countries progress scientifically. Case in point is the Iranian regime: despite all their religiosity, the Ayatollahs realize that they need a strong scientific and technological base to achieve their goals (whatever they are), and so Iran remains one of the more competitive Muslim countries. The Arab rulers are also coming to realize the value of science.

In Pakistan, unfortunately, the ruling feudal elite have no use for science or technology. Their produce, foodstuffs, will be in demand regardless, and the skills needed for workers are not particularly high-tech. So, as far as they are concerned, Pakistan has no use for science or technology.

Hmm.

DP sahib,

This is news for many of us.

Since when Prof. Hoodbhoy has been declared a misogynist meaning someone who hates women.

Are you sure?


peace

For me, a misogynist is someone who judges women by their appearance. Hoodbhoy is on record as saying he doesn't like his students wearing a hijab -- not a veil -- because "they are fundamentalists".

His bigotry against Sindhis and Baluchis is also on record in one of his blabberings.

 

[Contrarian]

Develepero, I agree with you on almost all counts,

but the fact is that South India produces more technology and research than North India, despite North India being much bigger in size. This much is true.

 

[indushek]

It's hilarious to read the opportunistic and predictable Islam bashing by the usual suspects. What's even more interesting is the utter lack of a cogent argument displayed by these bigots.

Let's take a look at the modern world for a second. Africa and South America don't product much scientific output, yet no one is blaming Christianity for it. South East Asia and, until recently, China, didn't produce scientific output, but no one is blaming Buddhism. Indians love to remind us that Islamic rule only extended to Northern India, yet Southern India, free from the Islamic "yoke" didn't produce much scientific output for centuries, yet no one is blaming Hinduism for it.

So, leaving preconceived bigotry and agendas, aside, what is going on?

The answer is that, throughout history, there has been a quiet alliance between the political ruling classes and the clergy (of all religions). The clergy "ordained" the king as having divine right to rule, and the rulers returned the favor by elevating the clergy to a privileged position. The important point, is that the power lies with the political elite, not the clergy itself: the clergy buys its favors in exchange for serving the rulers' agenda.

All this changed during the Renaissance in Europe. The Renaissance happened, not because the Church weakened by itself, but because the secular rulers decided that their best interests were served by a populace that was competitive in science, technology, the arts, etc. It was the secular rulers who made the Church irrelevant and elevated the intellectual classes to eminence.

The same dynamic holds today around the world. In much of the world, including the Islamic world, the ruling elite are scared to loosen their hold on power. Rather than face the uncertain world of progress and freedom, they hold on the proven patterns of control, i.e. through the clergy. The fault, then, is not the clergy's -- they are merely a tool used by the corrupt political elite.

If and when the ruling elite decides that their best interests are served by an educated, competitive populace, then you will see these countries progress scientifically. Case in point is the Iranian regime: despite all their religiosity, the Ayatollahs realize that they need a strong scientific and technological base to achieve their goals (whatever they are), and so Iran remains one of the more competitive Muslim countries. The Arab rulers are also coming to realize the value of science.

In Pakistan, unfortunately, the ruling feudal elite have no use for science or technology. Their produce, foodstuffs, will be in demand regardless, and the skills needed for workers are not particularly high-tech. So, as far as they are concerned, Pakistan has no use for science or technology.



For me, a misogynist is someone who judges women by their appearance. Hoodbhoy is on record as saying he doesn't like his students wearing a hijab -- not a veil -- because "they are fundamentalists".

His bigotry against Sindhis and Baluchis is also on record in one of his blabberings.

While the basic premise of your post is right and a religion cannot be held accountable for progress or regress, the underlying point of religiously charged people stopping progress cannot be brushed aside.

Why go outside on this very forum there are people claiming all the scientific inventions and everything known of science came from Quran. With due respect how can this be true pray tell me, there are no other religions claiming that their holy books brought all the science. If these kind of statements are made then there is something seriously wrong some where.

 

[FaujHistorian]

..... Africa and South America don't product much scientific output, yet no one is blaming Christianity for it. .....

The day an African opens a thread "Christianity and science: The road to renewal", we'll talk about Christian religion being incompatible with science.


The day an S. American opens a thread "Christianity and science: The road to renewal", we'll talk about Christian religion being incompatible with science.

Even in this thread there are quite a few references to Christian religion along with Islamism to be not compatible with science.


So blame the thread opener, or blame economist.

We are just discussing what people post.


peace

 

[FaujHistorian]

i actually feel soory for you......
soo who told before advent of astronomy that everything revolves around other thing and now your modern science is accepting that sun also is revolving.......

Do you know anything about science?

Any darn thing?

Or you are just here to cut and paste stuff from Islamist webistes?



Let me ask you a simple question.


How do you accept a scientific discovery?

Do you read it in Mullah Mawdoodi's book?
Or Mullah Aziz tells you this?
Did you learn about theory of relativity from Ayatullah Khomeni?

Did you come to know about black holes from Imam Kaaba?

Because all these guys are the top guys to know Quran.

but none of them ever told any discovery BEFORE Einstiend told us about theory of relativety.

None of these Mullahs told us about black holes until American and European scientists told us about.

How many Mullahs have published papers on gene structure BEFORE the research was published in America?


Huh?

How many Mullahs?

I bet you won't find that on any Islamist website. none of them.


So please learn a thing or two about science before shaming yourself.

Thank you

 

[Developereo]

Develepero, I agree with you on almost all counts,

but the fact is that South India produces more technology and research than North India, despite North India being much bigger in size. This much is true.

Well, from what I understand, Southern claims of cultural superiority stretch back millenia, so Muslim rule is not really a factor.

While the basic premise of your post is right and a religion cannot be held accountable for progress or regress, the underlying point of religiously charged people stopping progress cannot be brushed aside.

The finer distinction I am making is that it is not religiosity per se -- Faraday and Newton were obsessively religious -- but the proxy control by religious clergy which is used by the political elite to keep people in control.

Why go outside on this very forum there are people claiming all the scientific inventions and everything known of science came from Quran. With due respect how can this be true pray tell me, there are no other religions claiming that their holy books brought all the science. If these kind of statements are made then there is something seriously wrong some where.

I don't know the details but Christians (Bible Code) and Jews (Kabbala) also believe that "scientific truths" are encoded in their religious texts.

The day an African opens a thread "Christianity and science: The road to renewal", we'll talk about Christian religion being incompatible with science.


The day an S. American opens a thread "Christianity and science: The road to renewal", we'll talk about Christian religion being incompatible with science.

Even in this thread there are quite a few references to Christian religion along with Islamism to be not compatible with science.


So blame the thread opener, or blame economist.

We are just discussing what people post.


peace

Fine.

But what I am saying is that the blame goes, not to Islam as a religion any more than it goes to Christianity. It's the manipulators, political and religious, who use religion to maintain their hold on people.

In essence, I agree with one of the points in the OP that the core culprits are not the mullahs (merely proxies) but the (secular) ruling elite in Muslim countries who are to blame for the backwardness of Muslim societies.

 

[pk_baloch]

Nobody can beat the ancient Arabs and Chinese. But west was much more smarter.

the ancients arabs and chinese were also the children of adam and hawa ....
the were 1,2300 prophets who came before hazrat muhammad and there were many books which were revealed on them but those books were corrupted or lost .......

6 TO 1600 AD WAS the golden period of muslims and bagdad was the main center of many muslim sceients , but main problem of that muslims had , they hide their innovations from others ...
only 1700 to 1900AD WAS the period of western countries .......

 

[FaujHistorian]

....
Fine.

But what I am saying is that the blame goes, not to Islam as a religion any more than it goes to Christianity. It's the manipulators, political and religious, who use religion to maintain their hold on people.

In essence, I agree with one of the points in the OP that the core culprits are not the mullahs (merely proxies) but the (secular) ruling elite in Muslim countries who are to blame for the backwardness of Muslim societies.

Sure. Both the Mob-Islam and Mob-Christianity are incompatible with science.


And by the way Mullahs and secular elite whoever suppresses independent thought process is incompatible with science.

Muslim countries are in a hole because they have become socially intolerant cesspools of ignorance.

And the more Islam you bring to Muslim countries the more socially intolerant they become.

And thus less scientific they are.


peace

 

[indushek]

Well, from what I understand, Southern claims of cultural superiority stretch back millenia, so Muslim rule is not really a factor.



The finer distinction I am making is that it is not religiosity per se -- Faraday and Newton were obsessively religious -- but the proxy control by religious clergy which is used by the political elite to keep people in control.



I don't know the details but Christians (Bible Code) and Jews (Kabbala) also believe that "scientific truths" are encoded in their religious texts.



Fine.

But what I am saying is that the blame goes, not to Islam as a religion any more than it goes to Christianity. It's the manipulators, political and religious, who use religion to maintain their hold on people.

In essence, I agree with one of the points in the OP that the core culprits are not the mullahs (merely proxies) but the (secular) ruling elite in Muslim countries who are to blame for the backwardness of Muslim societies.

Dear Developreo while there is always exploitation of mankind based whatever possible means like religion, fear of unknown etc etc, people from whatever religion they may be if they make such claims it should not be encouraged. Islam being the religion of these kind gets dragged into accusations and counter accusations. I would also feel the same as u if my beliefs are being attacked for the myopic ideas of a person who has only the religion as common thing between me and him.

However it doesn't mean u keep quite when such ridiculous statements are made right? Each religion has its own 'beliefs' on things. We shouldn't mix science and religion period.

 

[FaujHistorian]

..... but main problem of that muslims had , they hide their innovations from others ...
............

Muslims will not hide if they could should anything.

I mean if everyone is parading around brand new supersonic airplanes, you can't bring your donkey cart there and say look look look at my donkey, how beautiful it is. And the cart runs so nice and smooth on the wazirstan horse-way (as opposed to motorway).

I hope you understand it now.

 

[Developereo]

And by the way Mullahs and secular elite whoever suppresses independent thought process is incompatible with science.

I look at it from the point of view of finding a solution.

Since I believe the mullahs are merely proxy tools, it makes no sense to go after them. Even if we neutralize them, the ruling elite will find some other means (ethnic rivalries, etc.) to keep the people backwards.

Instead, if we focus on the root cause, i.e. the political elite, then we have a better chance of solving the crisis. Believe me, if the political elite want scientific progress, they will make sure the mullahs behave.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I look at it from the point of view of finding a solution.

Since I believe the mullahs are merely proxy tools, it makes no sense to go after them. Even if we neutralize them, the ruling elite will find some other means (ethnic rivalries, etc.) to keep the people backwards.

Instead, if we focus on the root cause, i.e. the political elite, then we have a better chance of solving the crisis. Believe me, if the political elite want scientific progress, they will make sure the mullahs behave.

nah bro. what are you saying?


Was Mullah Khomeni a proxy TOOL? if so, whose TOOL? American? French? or Martians?

Is Ayatullah Khaminae a proxy TOOL? if so, whose TOOL? American? French? or Martians?


Was Mawdoodi a proxy tool? if so, whose TOOL? American? French? or Martians?



I mean we can go over a long long long list of Mullah from every sect, every Maslik, and I assure you that large majority of them are simply dimwit nincompoops agents of orthodoxy and tribalism.

peace