Is the military gap between Pakistan and India increasing or decreasing?

[Falcon26]

As long as it effectively destroys the targets - couldn’t care less. Based upon everything we know and have no reason or proof to believe otherwise including validation from the events of 27th feb - it pretty much will.

lol there’s a reason the US stayed away from supersonic missiles and instead relied on subsonic missiles given the stealth and high degree of accuracy involved

 

[Figaro]

113	54 of these are Bison variety.[1]
SEPECAT Jaguar	United Kingdom	Ground attack	IM/IS[2]	118[3]
Mikoyan MiG-29	Russia	Multirole	MiG-29UPG[4]	65[5][6]	21 on order
Dassault Mirage 2000	France	Multirole	2000 H/I	45[5]
Sukhoi Su-30	Russia	Multirole	Su-30MKI	261[7]	272 delivered. 12 on order
HAL Tejas	India	Multirole	Mk.1	17[8]	23 on order[9][10]
Dassault Rafale	France	Multirole	EH/DH[11]	5	31 on order.[12]

Tthats present number of IAF airforce fighter /attack jets and you want to counter it with 250 total of 80 F16s, 130 JF17s and a few old MIRRAGES?????????

The Pakistanis will make their shots count ... the F-16s and JF-17s, particularly Block IIs, should have no problem countering the MKIs, never mind the Mig 29s or the Mirages. The Rafael is the real elephant in the room but once Block III comes online, that too will be taken care of.

 

[Marker]

113	54 of these are Bison variety.[1]
SEPECAT Jaguar	United Kingdom	Ground attack	IM/IS[2]	118[3]
Mikoyan MiG-29	Russia	Multirole	MiG-29UPG[4]	65[5][6]	21 on order
Dassault Mirage 2000	France	Multirole	2000 H/I	45[5]
Sukhoi Su-30	Russia	Multirole	Su-30MKI	261[7]	272 delivered. 12 on order
HAL Tejas	India	Multirole	Mk.1	17[8]	23 on order[9][10]
Dassault Rafale	France	Multirole	EH/DH[11]	5	31 on order.[12]

Tthats present number of IAF airforce fighter /attack jets and you want to counter it with 250 total of 80 F16s, 130 JF17s and a few old MIRRAGES?????????

And how many are airworthy?
What is the turn around time for serviceable aircraft?
How many offensive and defensive sorties IAF will be generating during escalation period?

Aircraft airworthiness and turn around time of PAF fleet is much better than other Air forces.
PAF pilot aircraft ratio is 2:1 where as IAF's ratio is less than 1.
Therefore, PAF can generate enough sorties for offensive and defensive missions in a day. They can also provide adequate ground and sea support.

Air war between PAF and IAF will last not more than 5 to 6 days. Outcome will always be in favor of PAF.

The only weakness is aviation fuel availability and the storage capacity at various PAF bases.

 

[Khan vilatey]

113	54 of these are Bison variety.[1]
SEPECAT Jaguar	United Kingdom	Ground attack	IM/IS[2]	118[3]
Mikoyan MiG-29	Russia	Multirole	MiG-29UPG[4]	65[5][6]	21 on order
Dassault Mirage 2000	France	Multirole	2000 H/I	45[5]
Sukhoi Su-30	Russia	Multirole	Su-30MKI	261[7]	272 delivered. 12 on order
HAL Tejas	India	Multirole	Mk.1	17[8]	23 on order[9][10]
Dassault Rafale	France	Multirole	EH/DH[11]	5	31 on order.[12]

Tthats present number of IAF airforce fighter /attack jets and you want to counter it with 250 total of 80 F16s, 130 JF17s and a few old MIRRAGES?????????

I respect your point of view (POV) but disagree.

the upgraded jaguars and mig-27/ with Isreali aesa radar will be a problem but would be sitting ducks in Pakistani territory without complete Indian air superiority, mig-21 and 29s lack the range to be used for offensive operations and would be used for point defence.
Su-30s with their ganga RCS and terrible radar and ew suite will be completely Outclassed by our current aircraft. The same is true for mirage 2000z

Rafale can be handled in a defensive formations with jet-17 block 3 in numbers 50+ are enough to For 35 aircraft you see in a 4 aircraft fight its more about tactics then the aircraft we would have significant numbers to overwhelm them in our skies

we do have better ew and awacs platforms. The phalcon was not as useful as link17 integrated PAF aircraft rules the skies on feb-27

I agree with you on the strike roles,we could buy 60 fc-20s as a stop gap platform till Azam brings out our strike birds

fc and rangers being beefed up for afghan border 300 or so t-59 maybe some more paramilitary forces. Even with current numbers with significant mobilization / anti ied resistant vehicles and tanks the current forces can handle Afghanistan espically with a friendly Taliban government would not be as bad!

For the army I do agree with more automation and personal radios and rifle mounted gernade launchers and a lot more mobilization and training would help.

Increasing soldier numbers is not useful in today’s world. Better training and equipment expands capability. We should also raise something like the territorial army UK or reserves in Canada and the USA to supplement professional troops.

finally the navy, we do not need an aircraft carrier it would be to expensive. I agree with 25 frigates along with three dedicatedjf-17 squadrons flown by navy pilots And two dedicated awacs platforms to guide all our assets in the Arabian Sea. We also need to replace the p3-c Orion. The Americans will tell all the secrets about these to the Indians!

we should get a more diesel subs all the way up to 25 as they are quieter and cheaper to maintain. This should keep all who dare in check

kv

 

[ziaulislam]

If we look at the state of Pakistan's armed forces compared to Indian armed forces...starting from the time of independence...
...Pakistan has made immense progress at closing the gap.

There have been ups and downs...in some cases fast progress was made...and in some cases we fell behind in progress. An example being when Pak first acquired F16s...the airforce gained a significant qualitative advantage...then during the embargo all progress grind to a halt...and there was a time when PAF went without BVR capability while India had it. However overall the gap has closed especially when it comes to PAF and PN.

In case of PA...I'm disappointed in the lack of vision and focus. An example is that of tanks...Pakistan has Ukraine, Turkey, and China(others too) that it could've worked with to develop a decent tank(which I was hoping would be Al-Khalid 2 going forward). Instead they went for stop gap measures with 300 VT4(not to take away from its capabilities). It echoed the same stop gap measures taken before with T80UD and others. At this point it's a hodge podge mix of a a few hundred of this and few hundred of that. What the army needs is to focus on a decent domestic(or JV) tank(analogous to what the JF17 was for PAF)...churn it out over time to replace older tanks...and standardize the fleet. It can be improved over time as well(like JF17 blocks were)...
...either put all the focus in that...or decide once and for all...to import. So that money doesn't have to be squandered on an indigenous effort. If that's what the decision is...then go all in with some Chinese tank that fits the needs(like VT4 for example)...and go for license production(akin to Su30 MKI strategy of India).

I was happy to hear that PA was going for T129 with ToT...but that too is kinda up in the air.

So all in all...overall gap has closed...but PA could still do better IMO.

before 1971 pakistan was simply not in psoition to pressurize india on khamsir simply because Bangladesh was un defendable in full war due to being sourrounded by india and lack of

Combat capable aircraft

View attachment 666099

MBT

View attachment 666100

Frigates
View attachment 666101

numbers dont tell the story.
for airforce:
1. just compare the fourth gen fighters and critical assets like AWECS & refuelers and pilot ot aircraft ratio/plane serviceability (mig 21s, 27s and old gen dont really matter)
2. for MBT compare only latest gen tanks, self propelled artillery(155mm), rocket forces and mechanized armour
3. for navy compare frigates/destroyers (tonage doesnt matter, firepower does), sub surface and surivallance aircrafts


only then you will get the true picture

there is difference
between 2500 chinese f7 force
vs
1000 flanker, 700 j-10 equipped force with 30+ awecs

if you cant understand this then god help you

 

[ziaulislam]

I respect your point of view (POV) but disagree.

the upgraded jaguars and mig-27/ with Isreali aesa radar will be a problem but would be sitting ducks in Pakistani territory without complete Indian air superiority, mig-21 and 29s lack the range to be used for offensive operations and would be used for point defence.
Su-30s with their ganga RCS and terrible radar and ew suite will be completely Outclassed by our current aircraft. The same is true for mirage 2000z

Rafale can be handled in a defensive formations with jet-17 block 3 in numbers 50+ are enough to For 35 aircraft you see in a 4 aircraft fight its more about tactics then the aircraft we would have significant numbers to overwhelm them in our skies

we do have better ew and awacs platforms. The phalcon was not as useful as link17 integrated PAF aircraft rules the skies on feb-27

I agree with you on the strike roles,we could buy 60 fc-20s as a stop gap platform till Azam brings out our strike birds

fc and rangers being beefed up for afghan border 300 or so t-59 maybe some more paramilitary forces. Even with current numbers with significant mobilization / anti ied resistant vehicles and tanks the current forces can handle Afghanistan espically with a friendly Taliban government would not be as bad!

For the army I do agree with more automation and personal radios and rifle mounted gernade launchers and a lot more mobilization and training would help.

Increasing soldier numbers is not useful in today’s world. Better training and equipment expands capability. We should also raise something like the territorial army UK or reserves in Canada and the USA to supplement professional troops.

finally the navy, we do not need an aircraft carrier it would be to expensive. I agree with 25 frigates along with three dedicatedjf-17 squadrons flown by navy pilots And two dedicated awacs platforms to guide all our assets in the Arabian Sea. We also need to replace the p3-c Orion. The Americans will tell all the secrets about these to the Indians!

we should get a more diesel subs all the way up to 25 as they are quieter and cheaper to maintain. This should keep all who dare in check

kv

wait..what mig27 are retired already, jauguars arent going through upgrade darn III has been scrapped, mig 21 are scrap because of hapzard upgrade, mig29 are good, mirage2000 are good for strike but lack good BVR, su30 has serviceability issues
i am still not saying PAF outnumbers IAF but in short battle IAF wont have a win..

rafale is game changer especially if gained in 50+ numbers
PAF would need 100 odd upgraded f16s to counter this threat along with additional mig29s being procured, may be in future mirage2000 MIGHT get a meteor too

 

[Khan vilatey]

wait..what mig27 are retired already, jauguars arent going through upgrade darn III has been scrapped, mig 21 are scrap because of hapzard upgrade, mig29 are good, mirage2000 are good for strike but lack good BVR, su30 has serviceability issues
i am still not saying PAF outnumbers IAF but in short battle IAF wont have a win..

rafale is game changer especially if gained in 50+ numbers
PAF would need 100 odd upgraded f16s to counter this threat along with additional mig29s being procured, may be in future mirage2000 MIGHT get a meteor too

friend I saw this by a Pakistani youtuber. I am happy to be wrong

I do not agree with the mig-29 and mirage 2000 assessment. Mig -29s lack the endurance to do any significant damage in Pakistan they however are bvr capable and would be used in a point defence role.
so far I have only seen mirage 2000s in the IAF in the strike role a lot like our mirages. it’s a decent aircraft but not a threat to our If-17 block 2s and maybe even block 1

I see us bringing in something like 50 units of block 3 and 50 units of block 4 ( yes we probably will be upgrading if-17 for the next 50 years. These will hold their own against Rafaels. As I said in 2/3 vs 2/3 battle tactics trump aircraft capabilities

kv

 

[KaiserX]

Indian GDP has contracted -24%

 

[vishwambhar]

Why are we even discussing this..... India has numerical advantage in ground troops..... no matter what Pakistan airforce achieves they simply don't have capability to deliver an ordanance of even single B2 flight to stop our T90s advance into their territory...... PAF will enjoy superiority initially but slowly war will start turning into India's favor...... Indian ground forces waves after waves will be unstoppable for PAF, BRAMHOS wrecking havoc on PN and Pakistan military bases will bring Pakistan on to the negotiation table with India off course on India's terms.... quantity is quality in itself..... never forget this....

 

[Marker]

Why are we even discussing this..... India has numerical advantage in ground troops..... no matter what Pakistan airforce achieves they simply don't have capability to deliver an ordanance of even single B2 flight to stop our T90s advance into their territory...... PAF will enjoy superiority initially but slowly war will start turning into India's favor...... Indian ground forces waves after waves will be unstoppable for PAF, BRAMHOS wrecking havoc on PN and Pakistan military bases will bring Pakistan on to the negotiation table with India off course on India's terms.... quantity is quality in itself..... never forget this....

I think you did not learnt the lesson from 27 Feb debacle, not only loosing aircraft but also surrendering pilot. This is not the end, you even about to loose or surrender your submarine and your navy (considered according to your media as a very modern and formidable navy) went into panic attack after loosing track of our one of the submarines.

Just dare to try again. You will receive an unexpected response even more deadlier than you can imagine.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Why are we even discussing this..... India has numerical advantage in ground troops..... no matter what Pakistan airforce achieves they simply don't have capability to deliver an ordanance of even single B2 flight to stop our T90s advance into their territory...... PAF will enjoy superiority initially but slowly war will start turning into India's favor...... Indian ground forces waves after waves will be unstoppable for PAF, BRAMHOS wrecking havoc on PN and Pakistan military bases will bring Pakistan on to the negotiation table with India off course on India's terms.... quantity is quality in itself..... never forget this....

I recommend u go back to basics of warfare...
...all u have displayed here is ur bollywood style victory.

 

[JohnWick]

Listen kid I don't at all care about 27th Feb.... if shooting down one vintage jet is a yardstick to compare Pakistan and India then please feel like sitting on the top of the moon...... 5th August India showed what they are capable of and your PM saying we don't have capability to attack India and snatch Kashmir is the actual yardstick as per Indian standard..... I already said you have advantage in air still you keep crying like mosquito 27th Feb 27th Feb......why don't you then send your SHAHEEN'S to free Kashmir....

SHAHEENS already captured and killed your soldier with Stones and baseball bats....The Campaign is on....

 

[vishwambhar]

SHAHEENS already captured and killed your soldier with Stones and baseball bats....The Campaign is on....

And after that what my friend?? Is ladakh in China?? Don't know why some skirmish losses make you feel like a world war winner especially when the objective is back to square one....

 

[JohnWick]

And after that what my friend?? Is ladakh in China?? Don't know why some skirmish losses make you feel like a world war winner especially when the objective is back to square one....

With the backing of all the countries like France US Russia etc it is a World war win for us
Hope you understand what I am saying.

 

[Khan vilatey]

Why are we even discussing this..... India has numerical advantage in ground troops..... no matter what Pakistan airforce achieves they simply don't have capability to deliver an ordanance of even single B2 flight to stop our T90s advance into their territory...... PAF will enjoy superiority initially but slowly war will start turning into India's favor...... Indian ground forces waves after waves will be unstoppable for PAF, BRAMHOS wrecking havoc on PN and Pakistan military bases will bring Pakistan on to the negotiation table with India off course on India's terms.... quantity is quality in itself..... never forget this....

Yes today it is 2:1 in India’s favor. The armor advantage is 2:1 decreasing to 2:1.5 by spring 2021 . Towed artillery India has more but in sp Pakistan will have 3:1 advantage. in atgm’s Pakistan has a 25-35:1 advantage.
Pakistan also makes Babar cruise missiles and have 3 ~4:1 Advantage against bhamOse of india. we also have an advantage in numbers in ALCM 4:1 I think l.

in armed drones today we have an advantage of 50:0 increasing to 200:50

experts say a numerical superiority of 4:1 is needed to take out ones enemy.This is why India does not want to go into a land war against Pakistan. Today it would take 4-5 years to overwhelm Pakistan without nuclear weapons. This does not take into account the civilian population picking up
Arms, you see Pakistan has a gun culture most people in Pakistan own arms and know how to use them. After two years most of trained soldiers in India would be gone so the fight would be between Pakistani populous that is armed and knows how to use fire arms. And untrained Indian conscripts. We kill each other effectively imagine what would we do to aN under trained and demotivated Indian conscript in our territory. As a society we are used to living without the rule of law.

Pakistan has a 2:1 nuclear warhead advantage. Same is the case with Pakistani highly mobile delivery systems. Most of our arsenal is truck mobile, India’s is not.

as far as the t-90s in Pakistan is concrned we have the nasar missiles, 50-100 armed drones and 30000s hur mujahids armed with 30000k Baktar Shikan ATGMS. We have been building these since the 90s and have significant stockpiles possibility in the 100k range.

the hur live in the desert, grow up in the desert and are fanatically loyal to Pakistan Due to their religious leader, they regularly train with the army and were able to blunt the Indian advance in both 1965 and 1971 wars in the Sindh desert.

India can no longer win in a land battle against Pakistan. You lost that capability half a century ago after 85 when the focus in India shifted from fighting a land war to COIN operations.

The question now really is if we will fight these battles in Indian cities or our borders. See another thing that experts talk about is logistics. Pakistani forces can come online in 24 hours and our line of supplies are right next to our troops. It takes india 2-3 weeks to mobilize via trains. If war starts we would use our numerically superior cruise missile arsenals to take major rail junctions out. This will slow Indian mobilization even further.

so please help me understand how you plan to take over Pakistan

kv