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Is Pakistan’s JF-17 Thunder Fighter Jet a Better Choice than HAL Tejas?

One flies, and other toed on the back of a truck .. i don't see any comparison

Of course you wouldn't. That there is a squadron flying, that it took part in the recent air exercise, neither of these carry any weight. They don't suit the narrative. :D

JF-17 thunder, haven't heard anyone telling this is an indigenous aircraft, here JF stands for joint fighter.

The JF-17 was never designed to compete with the latest 4th or 5th generation fighters, it was designed to provide a low cost workhorse weapons platform to the PAF that can be enhanced and grown over time to reduce the PAF’s dependence on American Hardware.

Today, the JF-17 not only supplements and multiples the effectiveness of the PAF’s F-16 fleet. But with the expected launch of block 3 development this year, it will incorporate the new WS-13 engine and features such as IRST, AESA Radar, HMD & a new Avionics/EW suite which will further enhance it’s capabilities.

In terms of $ spent/unit, it isn’t produced at a fraction of the cost of the F-16 but at $28 - $36 million a pop it offers value for money and comes with few if any strings attached. This means it reduces Pakistan’s dependency on finicky American foreign policy and allows the PAF to enhance the weapons system as it sees fit.

The input that Pakistan gave was pilot experience, maintenance experience and testing. China values Pakistan contributions. Pakistan experience in using fighter jets in real combat has contributed to the JF-17 development. And part of it came from Pakistani experience of using western fighters such as the F-16 Fighting Falcon and the Mirage 111/5 families as well as the F-7MG Airguard which Pakistan has purchased in considerable numbers.

Nobody reasonable would object to the narration of facts here. Nobody could.

It is when fanboys start falling over themselves in their enthusiasm, and compare a technology developed by a matured aviation industry with the technology used to develop precisely the infant stages of such an industry that we find ourselves talking past one another.

This acrimonious thread arose because of silly remarks made by these fanboys and even silly remarks by mature members like @Starlord. Nothing to do with your statement or with you.
 
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If you are comparing apples with oranges, this kind of misconception might happen. The JF 17 has always been acknowledged to have been assembled in Pakistan from parts made in China, notwithstanding the steady indigenisation that the Pakistani side has brought in. This is as good or as bad as the Indian assembly of the Gnat, later, the Ajeet, the MiG 21, the MiG 23, the MiG 27, the Jaguar, and currently the SU 30 MKI.

How do you people consistently, every time, every post, compare what you assemble with what others design and build?
Now sir that is a factually wrong statement and you know it.
 
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:omghaha::omghaha: .....my dear delusional little troll from our ------. what are you smoking these days? must be something really high quality....but just a reality check...Malaysia is looking for an A/C that FLIES...they are not looking for some Truck Top Toy...may be because they don't have enough free trucks :P

xguJKhP.jpg

True, true......since you are determined to be silly, here's something for you to get really silly about.


Now sir that is a factually wrong statement and you know it.

Do I?

Please read #25,

Tell me the components that were developed by the PAF.
The airframe?
The aerodynamics?
The flight control system?
The avionics?
The radar?
The fly-by-wire system?
The engine?
The undercarriage?
The mission control system?
The weapons control system?
Anything?
 
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If you are comparing apples with oranges, this kind of misconception might happen. The JF 17 has always been acknowledged to have been assembled in Pakistan from parts made in China, notwithstanding the steady indigenisation that the Pakistani side has brought in. This is as good or as bad as the Indian assembly of the Gnat, later, the Ajeet, the MiG 21, the MiG 23, the MiG 27, the Jaguar, and currently the SU 30 MKI.

How do you people consistently, every time, every post, compare what you assemble with what others design and build?

you are wrong here sir. Most of the parts of MKIs including engine is manufactured here in India. We have developed a facilty of overhauling of MKIs which is not there even in Russia. We could strengthen air frames of MKIs which even Russia could not do for Integration of Brahmos. we can do so many tings with MKIs which even Russia cannot do.
 
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It is when fanboys start falling over themselves in their enthusiasm, and compare a technology developed by a matured aviation industry with the technology used to develop precisely the infant stages of such an industry that we find ourselves talking past one another.


Both of your thoughts about 'matured' aviation industry and an 'infant' stages of an industry is incorrect and the analogy is factually wrong.

Manufacturing and technology are two different things, the theoretical parts of it, the study and first hand experience Pakistan had with western technology over the years and using that experience with the manufacturing prowess of China.

Like experience and theoretical knowledge meets manufacturing...Pakistan isn't exactly a manufacturing power house like China with all the reverse engineering and tech. manufacturing going on in China...

Also your knowledge about Pakistan military industrial complex is rudimentary and superfluous...ask the expert here, you can take his word for it, like the Indian VCOAS...

Pakistan defence industrial base better than ours: Army vice chief

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ase-better-than-ours-army-vice-chief-4766949/
 
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you are wrong here sir. Most of the parts of MKIs including engine is manufactured here in India. We have developed a facilty of overhauling of MKIs which is not there even in Russia. We could strengthen air frames of MKIs which even Russia could not do for Integration of Brahmos. we can do so many tings with MKIs which even Russia cannot do.

You misunderstood my post. I started with the proposition that even at the lowest level of value addition, assembling from SKD or CKD kits, it was nothing more than what was being done with the JF 17.

Both of your thoughts about 'matured' aviation industry and an 'infant' stages of an industry is incorrect and the analogy is factually wrong.

Manufacturing and technology are two different things, the theoretical parts of it, the study and first hand experience Pakistan had with western technology over the years and using that experience with the manufacturing prowess of China.

Like experience and theoretical knowledge meets manufacturing...Pakistan isn't exactly a manufacturing power house like China with all the reverse engineering and tech. manufacturing going on in China...

Also your knowledge about Pakistan military industrial complex is rudimentary and superfluous...ask the expert here, you can take his word for it, like the Indian VCOAS...

Pakistan defence industrial base better than ours: Army vice chief

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ase-better-than-ours-army-vice-chief-4766949/

Let us get to grips with this post.

Where did you get a discrepancy in my post between manufacturing and technology? If you look at the VCOAS statement, that itself will give you a clue: we have the technology in firm control, our manufacturing is our weak point, with specific reference to the public sector.

If you are saying that you had the technology, and that it was married to the manufacturing maturity of China, that is hard to believe. You need to have something to show for that. In India, we have very well developed engines (terrestrial and marine, not aerial), very robust development AND manufacturing, for two wheelers, and for cars and commercial vehicles, and have no dearth of experience in these lines. HAL was set up before WWII, and was nationalised by the British due to its potential role in the war effort. All the railway wagons and engines have a long history of indigenisation and of local design AND manufacture, and are exemplary. We have never hesitated to move ahead by importing (on payment of fees and royalties) better product designs than we had, and both our design and manufacturing wings were robust enough to absorb these upgrades and updates.

I could go on multiplying examples; it is difficult to believe that there is any comparison possible.

The major difference is that manufacturing of defence related goods is not done as efficiently. Most of these goods and products are confined to manufacture by public sector plants: the Ordnance Factories Board, for example, and HAL, BEL and BEML among others, including Bharat Dynamics. Other plants include the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Jabalpur, and the Armoured Vehicle centre in Tamil Nadu. None of these perform as well as the private sector, which was the main body of the Vice Chief's complaint.

Truthfully, honestly, I do not think Pakistan has the technology; however, she definitely has the manufacturing. The reason why the components were manufactured in China initially is simply that it was designed there, prototyped there and then sent over for kit-wise assembly. I am sorry to end on a harsh note, but this is the bare truth.
 
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Let us get to grips with this post.

Where did you get a discrepancy in my post between manufacturing and technology? If you look at the VCOAS statement, that itself will give you a clue: we have the technology in firm control, our manufacturing is our weak point, with specific reference to the public sector.

If you are saying that you had the technology, and that it was married to the manufacturing maturity of China, that is hard to believe. You need to have something to show for that. In India, we have very well developed engines (terrestrial and marine, not aerial), very robust development AND manufacturing, for two wheelers, and for cars and commercial vehicles, and have no dearth of experience in these lines. HAL was set up before WWII, and was nationalised by the British due to its potential role in the war effort. All the railway wagons and engines have a long history of indigenisation and of local design AND manufacture, and are exemplary. We have never hesitated to move ahead by importing (on payment of fees and royalties) better product designs than we had, and both our design and manufacturing wings were robust enough to absorb these upgrades and updates.

I could go on multiplying examples; it is difficult to believe that there is any comparison possible.

The major difference is that manufacturing of defence related goods is not done as efficiently. Most of these goods and products are confined to manufacture by public sector plants: the Ordnance Factories Board, for example, and HAL, BEL and BEML among others, including Bharat Dynamics. Other plants include the Heavy Vehicles Factory at Jabalpur, and the Armoured Vehicle centre in Tamil Nadu. None of these perform as well as the private sector, which was the main body of the Vice Chief's complaint.

Truthfully, honestly, I do not think Pakistan has the technology; however, she definitely has the manufacturing. The reason why the components were manufactured in China initially is simply that it was designed there, prototyped there and then sent over for kit-wise assembly. I am sorry to end on a harsh note, but this is the bare truth.

Pakistan had the experience of Mirage III rebuild factory, started in the 80's, had the experience of flying F-16's for the last 30 years or so, all /most of the military and aviation tech. Pakistan had hands on experience was all US made, French or British. Pakistan do have a fair amount of local manufacturing and big industrial complexes like the HMC, the POF(there are 8 diff. factories and all the ammo's are local made exported as well), PAC Kamra, now building an aviation city.

Than there is NESCOM, a military cum civilian corporation into armored drone development, missile tech. (armored drone needs satellite navigation) unlike the normal surveillance drones, India hasn't any.

Than there are NILORE into nuclear R&D, Kahuta research labs, KHUSHAB nuclear and many more...

Pakistan has just developed and demonstrated the MIRV tech. and the cruise missile Babar III, so it's a myth that Pakistan has low technology base, at least in military domain Pakistan is ahead....India is ahead in numbers game.


Also in the age of globalization and shifting of manufacturing to third world countries due to cost arbitrage, environmental issues in EU and US, labor advantage, to skip the trade and tariff barriers, many Industries will relocate to third world countries with large populations to sustain that paradigm shift.


And it is also a myth that Pakistan has no car vendor industry and manufacturing...

Car and motorcycle vendor Industry in Pakistan, the deletion levels and localization of parts

There are almost 3000 Auto Parts-Manufacturers operating all over Pakistan, whereby this industry has created almost 3 million jobs and opportunities for respectable income, engaging 500,000 skilled workers as Direct Employees and 2.4 million indirect employees. It has generated a robust Investment volume of Rs.370 billion, and contributes revenues of Rs. 110 billion per year to the national exchequer. It has also achieved an Import substitution worth US$ 3.3 billion per annum and an Exports volume of US$ 210 million per annum. Pakistan is already the cheapest source in the world, for producing tractors.

This industry has already achieved a high level of localization, whereby it boasts: 75% localization in Cars & HCVs, 96% in Tractors, 96% in Motorcycles and 80% in Three Wheelers. Its products are being exported to; The European Union, USA, African Countries and all over Asia. The Annual production in 2017 (six months) had reached; 107,787 cars, 941,000 motorcycles and 3-Wheelers, 4,514 Trucks, 409 Buses, 32,641 Tractors.

https://netmag.pk/pakistan-biggest-auto-show-2018/


As for the JF-17, it is a joint venture where experience meets reverse engineering, theoretical knowledge marriage with manufacturing, western tech. meets Chinese manufacturing power house with composite material, alloy steels and metallurgy prowess of China, JV doesn't have to have a 50:50 manufacturing.
 
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you are wrong here sir. Most of the parts of MKIs including engine is manufactured here in India. We have developed a facilty of overhauling of MKIs which is not there even in Russia. We could strengthen air frames of MKIs which even Russia could not do for Integration of Brahmos. we can do so many tings with MKIs which even Russia cannot do.
Now export Teja to Russia it will enhance Russian combat capabilities.......
 
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Now export Teja to Russia it will enhance Russian combat capabilities.......

Russians need to learn how to display Sukhoi MKI-30/35 as a 'beauty object'...this they can learn from India, but for that first they have to make sure the machine doesn't fly...but is a potential beauty pageant winner.


Pakistan has about 100 JF-17 already inducted in the PAF(was it now 150)....


Tejas-light-combat-aircraft-to-make-debut-run-on-Republic-Day-parade-indialivetoday.jpg
 
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True, true......since you are determined to be silly, here's something for you to get really silly about.

Oh nice to see... it eventually took to the skies... Is it enough for any airforce to consider that the seagull has taken the first step? I guess your knowledge is rather limited about aviation and aerospace industry. One good starting point for you is to look at the reasons why IAF was reluctant to induct it and though the govt has forced them to order...I bet they are not happy.
 
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Navigation lights are a must safety regulation.
HAL has faltered on this simple thingy.
Until it is confirmed otherwise.

HAL engineers are busy doing high tech repair:

31352r4.gif
 
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Oh nice to see... it eventually took to the skies... Is it enough for any airforce to consider that the seagull has taken the first step? I guess your knowledge is rather limited about aviation and aerospace industry.

:rofl:

Yeah, right.

My office address in GB was York House, Farnborough Estate.

One good starting point for you is to look at the reasons why IAF was reluctant to induct it and though the govt has forced them to order...I bet they are not happy.

No, they are not happy. They wanted another change in the specs.
 
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