Is PAA going for 11-ton ATAK-II with Ukrainian engines?

[IblinI]

Again you guys are getting emotional. I wasn't comparing Iran to Turkey but here we go.

The difference between China and Turkey is that China is a producer. Turkey is a middle man, buying vital components and assembling stuff. Right now Turkey's tank project is stuck in the mud, no transmission or motor. Erdogan is offering to deactivate the S-400 because Turkey desperately requires spare parts for F-16s and drones. You want proof ?

Turkey’s Defense Industry Has Come A Long Way, But Ankara Still Relies Heavily On Foreign Suppliers

Turkey is not going to be able to end such dependencies by 2023, as President Erdogan has vowed, or even by the end of this decade.

www.forbes.com

Canadian block on drone parts shows Turkey’s defense industry still not independent

Despite major efforts in the last decade, Turkey still requires the import of key technologies for its homegrown defense articles.

www.defensenews.com

Turkey in talks with South Korea to salvage Altay tank program

A source with knowledge of Turkey's Altay program has told Defense News that the country is negotiating with a South Korean firm in an attempt to recover the struggling project.

www.defensenews.com

As for Iran, like I said, Iran has a fully indigenous nuclear program. Turkey is paying Russia $20 billion to setup a nuclear power plant run by Russian technicians.

What you don't seem to understand is that anybody with money can pay foreigners to do things like this. Just like the UAE has a "space program" run by foreigners and foreign equipment. Without the foreign workers and foreign equipment what would there be ? Nothing. Just like your F-35 program. You were a "partner" but when the US pulled out you got... NOTHING

Turkish drones ? Here let's have a look shall we...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1359942241050120192

https://twitter.com/x/status/1359943070486249473

https://twitter.com/x/status/1359944456129101825

https://twitter.com/FieldMarshalPSO/status/1359945913947586561
https://twitter.com/FieldMarshalPSO/status/1359946150149783554
https://twitter.com/FieldMarshalPSO/status/1359946423446474756

So the majority of parts are foreign and the most vital components are foreign, not Turkish. German, Canadian, UK, USA.
Like I said Turkey is an assembler, not a producer.

What's this a Turkish 5th generation fighter jet being built by a UK company ? hiring foreigners to work in Turkey ? So a foreign company hires foreign technicians, engineers, they build you a product and you call it Turkish because you paid for it ? LOL okay...

Careers in Turkey

If you’re looking for a unique challenge then discover outstanding career and job opportunities with BAE Systems in Turkey. Apply your talent where it counts.

www.baesystems.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1359816219197657090

As far as Pakistan choosing between China and Turkey for helicopters, honestly it's a no brainer. It's not just a matter of the product, it's a matter of reliability. You can't get the original American engine for your product, now your turning to Ukraine ? You realize that Ukraine is completely corrupt and financially broken. They can't even supply their own clients with contracted weapons and their airforce and army is falling apart as we speak since they got cut off from Russia.

I mean think about it, in 20 years, China will be there and we all know who's going to be running the show. Turkey ? Will Erdogan's regime last another 20 years ? Will there be another military coup ? Will the same government be around in Ukraine in 20 years ? I doubt it but sure whatever floats your boat.

As for Iran, the country has a large fleet of helicopters that it maintains without any foreign assistance and Iran produces helicopters for a variety of purposes as well, albeit in small numbers right now, although there are plans for the future. You must forgive Iran if its helicopters are not as advanced as your "Turkish" models but there are no foreigners producing them with foreign components. There are also no foreign bases in Iran. That's for sure.

What you don't seem to understand is that when you don't have access to foreign components and licenses, it's a whole different game all together. Like I said, Turkey is learning this lesson the hard right as we speak with every move you try to make being blocked by foreigners. That's what happens when you're reliant on foreigners, they have power over your country and foreign policy. You don't want to take orders, they cut you off.

A tree doesn't grow in one day and when a country wants to build a fully indigenous manufacturing capacity, it takes time, effort money, trial & error, failures, etc.

How many times did North Korea fail to launch missiles ? How many of their tests failed ? People laughed. Now they can hit any city in the US mainland with a nuclear bomb. Nobody is laughing now.

Same thing when Koreans started their manufacturing industry. Japanese doubted them. Some people laughed. Their products were inferior for years. Now nobody is laughing.

well,why wasting time on an infamous ultra nationalist whom declared the "turk is the ancestor of most eurasia eithnicties".
He'll just throw you a list of their grandeur 700 defence projects which will quote "shock the world".

 

[Thunderbolt102]

According to the recent interview of TAI boss Prof Dr Temel Kotil at the HaberTurk, 11-ton ATAK-II T-929 will have Ukrainian engines. It’s first test flight will be in 2023 to mark 100 years of the Republic. If so, Pak has again checkmated Hindutva’s Apaches...

First of all P.A must Purchase T129 because we r to late . cobra isn't worthy more. when the time comes we can go for T929.

 

[MMM-E]

The difference between China and Turkey is that China is a producer. Turkey is a middle man, buying vital components and assembling stuff.

Russia Angry At China For Copying Jets And Naval Ships (What Will Be Next)

dont compare NATO startard high quality Turkey with copycat China and İran ( with their low quality copy weapons )


-- Arab Countries are not happy with low quality Chinese UCAVs ... because of low performing in high altitude
-- Pakistan prefered T-129 Attack Helicopter because of T-129 is the best-performing Attack Helicopter in high altitude which Pakistan needs ... China's Z-10 has inferior performing in high altitude
-- Pakistan prefered high quality Turkish ASELPOD targeting pod to use on JF-17 Jet instead of low quality Chinese targeting pod

even Germany rejects exports of Engines to Pakistan for Chinese Type 034B Submarines
Pakistan did not want the diesel engines used by China on the platform


Turkey doesnt copy anything
Turkey paid billions of Dollars to work with İtaly and S.Korea for T-129 Attack Helicopter and ALTAY Tank ( technology transfer )

Turkey develops over 700 military projects ....
and İranian - Chinese ignorant Guys are talking about only T-129 Attack Helicopter and ALTAY Tank


China has started copying Soviet weapons in 1980s
on the other hand , Turkey has started developing weapons after 2004
and only in 16 years , the rate of indigenous production in the Turkish defense sector had risen from 20% to over 70%

Turkey also develop Engines for T-629 Attack Helicopter , ALTAY Tank , MMU Fighter Jet project but needs more time to be in service

until 2030 the rate of indigenous production in the Turkish defense sector will rise to over 90%



Turkey is only Country in the world that develop over 700 military projects with less than $1 trillion of GDP

China's defense budget is $260 billion
Turkey's defense budget is $20 billion

still Turkey is trying to reach the rate of indigenous production in the Turkish defense sector to rise from 70% to over 90% until 2030

 

[IblinI]

Russia Angry At China For Copying Jets And Naval Ships (What Will Be Next)

dont compare NATO startard high quality Turkey with copycat China and İran ( with their low quality copy weapons )


-- Arab Counttries are not happy with low quality Chiinese UCAVs
-- Pakistan prefered T-129 Attack Helicopter because of T-129 is the best-performing Attack Helicopter in high altitude which Pakistan needs
-- Pakistan prefered high quality Turkish ASELPOD targeting pod to use on JF-17 Jet instead of low quality Chinese targeting pod

even Germany rejects exports of Engines to Pakistan for Chinese Type 034B Submarines
Pakistan did not want the diesel engines used by China on the platform





Turkey doesnt copy anything
Turkey paid billions of Dollars to work with İtaly and S.Korea for T-129 Attack Helicopter and ALTAY Tank ( technology transfer )

Turkey develops over 700 military projects ....
and İranian - Chinese ignorant Guys are talking about only T-129 Attack Helicopter and ALTAY Tank


China has started copying Soviet weapons in 1980s
on the other hand , Turkey has started developing weapons after 2004
and only in 16 years , the rate of indigenous production in the Turkish defense sector had risen from 20% to over 70%

Turkey also develop Engines for T-629 Attack Helicopter , ALTAY Tank , MMU Fighter Jet project but needs more time to be in service

until 2030 the rate of indigenous production in the Turkish defense sector will rise to over 90%



Turkey is only Country in the world that develop over 700 military projects with less than $1 trillion of GDP

finally the well known MMME is back, I thought you lost your soul after a few banned.

 

[MMM-E]

A real joke is iran , not Turkey

so called İranian 5th gen Fighter Jet QAHER-333

İranian TROLLs have no right to talk about Turkish defense industry

So the majority of parts are foreign and the most vital components are foreign, not Turkish. German, Canadian, UK, USA.
Like I said Turkey is an assembler, not a producer.

ignorant İranian Chinese Guys

even İsraeli UCAVs use ROTAX Engine



TURKEY is high quality producer , not copycat China or İran

now Turkish ANKA-S and AKSUNGUR UCAVs are 100% indigenous including TEI PD-170 Engine

and now Bayraktar TB-2 UCAVs use indigenous E/O System instead of Canadian E/O System

indigenous TEI PD-170 Turboprop Engine in mass production for ANKA-S , AKSUNGUR and Bayraktar TB-3 UCAVs

Only read but dont cry ok ?

The TEI-PD170 Engine which produces 225 horsepower at the time of take-off and 170 horsepower at a critical altitude of 20.000 feet with its 40.000 feet altitude capability provided by diesel fuel, stands out as the best in its class worldwide.




I am saying again
until 2030 the rate of indigenous production in the Turkish defense sector will rise to over 90% from 70%

As for Iran, like I said, Iran has a fully indigenous nuclear program. Turkey is paying Russia $20 billion to setup a nuclear power plant run by Russian technicians.

Iran's first nuclear power plant, the BUSHER I Reactor was completed with major assistance from the Russian government agency ROSATOM

Also İran get missile technologies from China , N.Korea and Ukraine


İranian and Chinese TROLLs have no right to talk about Turkish defense industry

 

[imranyounus]

a much better option is available for short term. buy more Russian hellies we already have MI35 no harm in adding more of them. they can serve us well in interim period. and hopefully in second half of this decade we will have a better option available from China or Turkey.

 

[araz]

a much better option is available for short term. buy more Russian hellies we already have MI35 no harm in adding more of them. they can serve us well in interim period. and hopefully in second half of this decade we will have a better option available from China or Turkey.

Russian helos have never suoted PAA and are avoided. Mi17 and Mi35s broke that mould purely for lack of a suitable platform that can provide what these 2 do. I think( please correct me if-I-am wrong) there is commonality of engines between ghe two and engines can be procured from multiple-providers in case of need so we are not dependent on the notoriously slow and unreliable russian resupply chain.
There are possibly 3 problems with a Russian helo buy.
Russiahas been reluctant to supply top of the line products as India remains Russia's biggest supplier to date and pressurizes it not to do so.
Where it has agreed to supply the products, it wants hard cash which we lack. There will be minimal or no setup for local production which has now become part of PAA's requirement. We will therefore remain dependent on Russian whims to supply us spares.
Russian setup will require Russian weaponry which will kill any endeavours that make in local weapons manufacturing. We will need to reestablish our weapons supply chain which is a headache and an additional cost which we cannot bear. This will not be the case for US/Turkish products. So in short there are hinderances in this line of thinking and the costs become a major issue.
There maybe other issues which I am not aware of. Just to give you an idea PAF's SU35 did not go beyond initial enquiry due to the same factors which I have highlighted.
A

 

[imranyounus]

There are definitely some issues with Russian option.

But we are already operating them with latest induction in last few years. so why not get more of them at least we will have some thing. but off course we should not make them a longer-term solution rather a short term one.

If we get say another 6 and follow up 6 in next few years. it will give us some respite. And sufficient time for Turkey to come up with some solution to their problem.

 

[Signalian]

Russian helos have never suoted PAA and are avoided. Mi17 and Mi35s broke that mould purely for lack of a suitable platform that can provide what these 2 do. I think( please correct me if-I-am wrong) there is commonality of engines between ghe two and engines can be procured from multiple-providers in case of need so we are not dependent on the notoriously slow and unreliable russian resupply chain.
There are possibly 3 problems with a Russian helo buy.
Russiahas been reluctant to supply top of the line products as India remains Russia's biggest supplier to date and pressurizes it not to do so.
Where it has agreed to supply the products, it wants hard cash which we lack. There will be minimal or no setup for local production which has now become part of PAA's requirement. We will therefore remain dependent on Russian whims to supply us spares.
Russian setup will require Russian weaponry which will kill any endeavours that make in local weapons manufacturing. We will need to reestablish our weapons supply chain which is a headache and an additional cost which we cannot bear. This will not be the case for US/Turkish products. So in short there are hinderances in this line of thinking and the costs become a major issue.
There maybe other issues which I am not aware of. Just to give you an idea PAF's SU35 did not go beyond initial enquiry due to the same factors which I have highlighted.
A

Havoc's altitude.

 

[araz]

Havoc's altitude.

Please elaborate

 

[Signalian]

Please elaborate

There was discussion that Mi-28 may not reach the altitude requirements of PAA. Back in Kargil 1999, Mi-24 also couldn't reach required altitude so India used Mi-17.

 

[Deino]

O well ... again a pure fantasy thread. As such based on the title: "Is PAA going for 11-ton ATAK-II with Ukrainian engines?" I would suggest to first wait what happens with ATAK II, what happens with this alleged Ukrainian engine deal ... and then Pakistan could decide if it shall go for 11-ton ATAK-II with Ukrainian engines!

 

[Irfan Baloch]

According to the recent interview of TAI boss Prof Dr Temel Kotil at the HaberTurk, 11-ton ATAK-II T-929 will have Ukrainian engines. It’s first test flight will be in 2023 to mark 100 years of the Republic. If so, Pak has again checkmated Hindutva’s Apaches...

Short answer is a Big no
because the helicopter doesnt even exist yet. there is no physical example present with any testing.
even the Turkish army has not adapted it or even chosen it.
the concept is still evolving.

when I saw the title of the thread some time ago even without clicking I knew its a "wish thread" with a clickbait by my Pakistani friend. if the title was "should PAA go for 11 Ton Atak with xyz?" or
"Does" 11- Ton ATAK II with Ukrainian engine fit the PAA operational needs?

all that is still relative because there has to be a real example flying first. tested for years and then one can form an opinion.

reminds me of a song "wake me up when September ends"...
(September here being American Embargo on Turkey..)
but hey we are talking about Ukrainian engine here where does American ban comes in?
Answer is, how many modifications will be needed to substitute all American sanctions prone components and accommodate a non western engine of a Russian design philosophy with unknown quality and performance?

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Russia Angry At China For Copying Jets And Naval Ships (What Will Be Next)

Nothing Russia can do about it. Russia needs China as bulwark against America. BTW J-16 uses Chinese made WS-10 engines, not Russian made AL-31 engines.

 

[Dalit]

Short answer is a Big no
because the helicopter doesnt even exist yet. there is no physical example present with any testing.
even the Turkish army has not adapted it or even chosen it.
the concept is still evolving.

when I saw the title of the thread some time ago even without clicking I knew its a "wish thread" with a clickbait by my Pakistani friend. if the title was "should PAA go for 11 Ton Atak with xyz?" or
"Does" 11- Ton ATAK II with Ukrainian engine fit the PAA operational needs?

all that is still relative because there has to be a real example flying first. tested for years and then one can form an opinion.

reminds me of a song "wake me up when September ends"...
(September here being American Embargo on Turkey..)
but hey we are talking about Ukrainian engine here where does American ban comes in?
Answer is, how many modifications will be needed to substitute all American sanctions prone components and accommodate a non western engine of a Russian design philosophy with unknown quality and performance?

Still the chances of Pakistan getting the Turkish helicopter with Ukrainian or domestic Turkish engine is always higher than most other alternatives. Pakistan Ukraine defence deals are nothing new.

If the Yanks throw a spanner in this deal after blocking their own engine, they shouldn't expect any goodwill from Pakistan. You are wise enough to understand what I mean by that.