Is PAA going for 11-ton ATAK-II with Ukrainian engines?

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

China is the obvious choice for Pakistan. The JF-17 has turned out to be extremely reliable and China as a whole is a much more reliable weapons supplier compared to Turkey. China is one of the worlds largest weapons producers.

Turkey more or less assembles weapons with the vital components more often than not being sourced from abroad. For example, Turkey's Bayraktar drones, engine German, optics Canadian, sensors from the USA and UK.

China is much more stable economically and firm in its foreign policy, politics as well. Turkey is somewhat wishy, washy in this regard. One day Turkey is aligned with NATO, the next they're buddy, buddy with Russia.

Right now, Turkey's tank program isn't going anywhere. The F-35 got cancelled and now the British are no longer building Turkey their 5th generation stealth jet. Ukraine is a corrupt and broken country. Ukrainians can't even supply their existing clients with contracted weapons systems.

Now Turkey is considering buying the SU-35 and SU-57 from Russia ? They seem to be all over the place with their weapons procurement as of late. Pakistan would be wise to stick with a reliable and steadfast partner, China, rather than making the more emotionally appealing choice in Turkey.

China's're absolutely right that there is a better supplier but hopefully you're just giving out samples of China and Turkey. Because when we go into this much detail, there is no such thing as the Iranian industry. In addition, we have received as much technology as we can get from the F35 program with a $ 1 billion R&D expenditure, and we have already produced all the products that can be produced. What did you think we were going to participate in the development work in the program for 50 years? What a ridiculous example this is.

 

[Shabi1]

According to the recent interview of TAI boss Prof Dr Temel Kotil at the HaberTurk, 11-ton ATAK-II T-929 will have Ukrainian engines. It’s first test flight will be in 2023 to mark 100 years of the Republic. If so, Pak has again checkmated Hindutva’s Apaches...

Pakistan primarily employees Gunships for COIN in high altitude environments which is why T-129 and AH-1Z faired better than Z-10 in trials because of better high altitude performance.
A heavy gunship although better in Vs India scenario but will have to compete with Z-10ME which has earlier delivery convenience on its side.
Will be interesting to see relevance of Gunship helicopters as there is more and more reliance on UCAVs. Azerbaijan-Armenia War is a good case study.
Need to see if we can put the Gunship order on backburner for couple of year more or not. If Pakistan is willing to wait longer, we will have to squeeze 5-6 years more out of our existing AH-1Ss. Jordan is selling 15 AH-1Fs, which could be bought for cannibalization of spares, PAA already has created local overhaul capability so if decision taken they can make them last longer.

 

[Shabi1]

Sure, but the Chinese wont just give you their IP immediately and it is always better to have eggs in more than one basket.

Yes Pakistan must and is diversifying suppliers and choosing best off the shelf available options.

However China has never said no for technology transfer of under license production to Pakistan. Pakistan builds the avionics for JF-17 in house including KLJ-7s. Same for missiles tech as well, some being made in Pakistan the beyond 280km export control limit is bypassed.

And in most cases Chinese offers get selected because its the best offering and not because its a compulsion.

 

[Cool_Soldier]

To me, PAA will get some Z10 ME soon and will wait for T129 engine solution and obviously will go for ATAK-2 with alternative engine.

 

[MMM-E]

Again another new engine.
It means the Turkish home ground engine also in trouble.

You guys are so ignorant or what ? Nobody can develop and use an engine for Helicopters in 4 years


TEI has started developing TS-1400 turboshaft engine in 2017
and in 2021, TEI delivered TS-1400 turboshaft engines to Turkish Aerospace Industries for integration it into the T-625 Helicopter

in 2024 , TS-1400 turboshaft engine will be ready for mass production ....
so 7 years for developing/integration/certificate ( 2017-2024 )


now T-625 Helicopter use LHTEC T-800 Engine but in 2024 T-625 Helicopter will use indigenous TS-1400 turboshaft engine

same senario also about T-929 ATAK-II heavy Attack Helicopter
in 2023 , ATAK-II willl use Ukranian Engine but TEI develop turboshaft engine family through TS-1400 engine for Turkish Helicopter projects

-- 5 tons class T-625 utility Helicopter
-- 10 tons class utility Helicopter
-- 6 tons class T-629 Attack Helicopter
-- 10 tons class T-929 Attack Helicopter

 

[MMM-E]

ask cobra pilots whom waiting for this since last many years . and we are running behind turkey like its last helicopter on earth .

T-129 ATAK is the best-performing Attack Helicopter in high altitude which Pakistan needs

also Turkey is reliable and brother country to Pakistan ..... and Turkey develops Helicopters-Turboshaft Engines to win the Future

Pakistan can buy Attack Helicopters from The US who hate Pakistan or another option is low quality Chinese one

 

[Colonel_Hardstone]

It appears that T929 will use similar power plant to Mi-17 which is advantageous to PAA due to commonality. So waiting for Turkey to deliver T929 makes a lot of sense for Pakistan and also forges stronger links with a brotherly nation.

Turkey has decades of NATO interoperability experience so their weaponry will demonstrate the western edge.

In the short term if things are dire for COIN then either rely on drones or get a few Z10ME

 

[S.Y.A]

Just go for UCAVs, hundreds of them if not thousands. use researchers from nust, giki and fast to develop and implement a swarm system. I personally know some Profs in Nust who are already working on that, but purely from a research POV, diverting the funds will help them and the military both.

 

[sha ah]

No need to get emotional and blab nonsense. The fact of the matter is that China is a world class weapons producer, building everything from scratch. Turkey has ambitions but is currently only assembling weapons systems whose vital components are all sourced from foreign nations. Turkey's dependence on foreign suppliers is what has led to its current predicaments. Ironically Turkey is now leaning towards Pakistan to get access to the same Chinese technology that they hope to compete against when it comes to selling Pakistan helicopters.

Iranian industry does not exist ? So I guess Iran's nuclear program doesn't exist ? Iran does not build missiles that shot down the RQ-4 ? drones that bypassed the Patriot SAMs and hit Aramco ? manpads that gna are now using in Libya ? Most people don't know this but Iran produces over 1 million cars a year, mostly Iranian models and brands, not foreign brands like some countries.

Right now Turkey is learning the same lesson that Iran learned the hard way in the 1980s. That lesson is that there is a very heavy price to be paid for exercising true national sovereignty and an independent foreign policy in this day and age. Buying pre made weapons systems or ready made vital components is the fastest and easiest way to procure advanced weapons systems, especially for developing nations without the necessary industrial capacity to build all the high end components in house by themselves. However those shiny new weapons come with hefty price tags and more importantly strings attached, namely subservience to the supplier nations foreign policy whims.

China's're absolutely right that there is a better supplier but hopefully you're just giving out samples of China and Turkey. Because when we go into this much detail, there is no such thing as the Iranian industry. In addition, we have received as much technology as we can get from the F35 program with a $ 1 billion R&D expenditure, and we have already produced all the products that can be produced. What did you think we were going to participate in the development work in the program for 50 years? What a ridiculous example this is.

 

[Nasr]

Turkey to use Ukrainian engine in its heavy class attack helicopters

The T929 ATAK 2 helicopter model on display during the Teknofest aviation and technology festival held between Sept. 11-22, 2019 in the now-closed Atatürk Airport, Istanbul, Turkey. (Wikipedia Photo)

BY DAILY SABAH
MAR 15, 2021 3:27 PM

Turkey’s heavy class attack helicopter, ATAK 2 will use an engine purchased from Ukraine, announced the manufacturing company late Sunday.

Temel Kotil, chairperson of the Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), which undertook the helicopter project said that they will acquire the engines to power the T929 helicopter, namely ATAK 2, from Ukraine during a live program on Turkish broadcaster HaberTürk.

He was discussing the helicopter projects of TAI, a leading aerospace industry company operating in Turkey and one of the two top local drone producers.

The helicopter in question is in the 11-ton class and can carry 1,500 kg of ammunition. The chopper will be equipped with 2,500 horsepower engines and will fly as of 2023, according to what Kotil said.

It is being developed under the Heavy Class Attack Helicopter Project contract signed between Defense Industries Presidency (SSB) and TAI, and is set to have approximately twice the take-off weight of current ATAK helicopters.

The project aims to meet the needs of the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK) in terms of an effective and deterrent attack helicopter, which can carry a high amount of useful load, is resistant to challenging environmental factors, equipped with advanced technology target tracking and imaging systems, electronic warfare (EW) systems, navigation systems, communication systems and weapon systems. It is being designed and manufactured as a chopper with high maneuverability and performance.

The general features of the T929 helicopter include tandem cockpit, asymmetrical weapon loading capability, high ammo-carrying capacity, low infra-red (IR) and acoustic trace, digital cockpit design, high ballistic resistance, state-of-the-art avionics, compatibility with high altitude and temperature, resistance to environmental factors, advanced EW and countermeasure systems.

It can carry high-caliber cannons, new generation rockets, long-range anti-tank missiles and air-to-air missile systems.

The heavy class helicopter can be used for air-to-ground combat, air-to-air combat, armed reconnaissance and surveillance, close air support (CAS), armed escort or joint offensive operations.

The current T129 tactical reconnaissance and attack helicopters which were upgraded to Phase-2 level are in the inventories of the TSK, along with Turkey’s General Directorate of Security which most recently received the aircraft.

LAST UPDATE: MARCH 15, 2021 16:37
EDITED BY: AYŞE BETÜL BAL

Turkey to use Ukrainian engine in its heavy class attack helicopters

Turkey’s heavy class attack helicopter, ATAK 2 will use an engine purchased from Ukraine, announced the manufacturing company late Sunday.Temel Kotil,...

www.dailysabah.com

Turkey, once the heavy class helo is cleared for operational use, would prioritize its own armed forces requirements, and rightly so. Which puts any procurement by Pakistan Army for Turkish heavy class gunship, put back to probably 2030-2035.

This isn't a realistic option for Pakistan Army. Hence it is important for Pakistan Army to pursue the Chinese Z-10ME gunship helos.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

No need to get emotional and blab nonsense. The fact of the matter is that China is a world class weapons producer, building everything from scratch. Turkey has ambitions but is currently only assembling weapons systems whose vital components are all sourced from foreign nations. Turkey's dependence on foreign suppliers is what has led to its current predicaments. Ironically Turkey is now leaning towards Pakistan to get access to the same Chinese technology that they hope to compete against when it comes to selling Pakistan helicopters.

Iranian industry does not exist ? So I guess Iran's nuclear program doesn't exist ? Iran does not build missiles that shot down the RQ-4 ? drones that bypassed the Patriot SAMs and hit Aramco ? manpads that gna are now using in Libya ? Most people don't know this but Iran produces over 1 million cars a year, mostly Iranian models and brands, not foreign brands like some countries.

Right now Turkey is learning the same lesson that Iran learned the hard way in the 1980s. That lesson is that there is a very heavy price to be paid for exercising true national sovereignty and an independent foreign policy in this day and age. Buying pre made weapons systems or ready made vital components is the fastest and easiest way to procure advanced weapons systems, especially for developing nations without the necessary industrial capacity to build all the high end components in house by themselves. However those shiny new weapons come with hefty price tags and more importantly strings attached, namely subservience to the supplier nations foreign policy whims.

Nuclear production is only a decision for a country the size of Turkey, not ability.
Everything you do is a lot more than your long-range ballistic missiles in Turkey, he is doing much more with local content at the latest 2 - will be ready in 3 years. Turkish SAM's use double impact engines and the long range version will be put into service within 2 years. All of them use locally designed and produced Aesa radars, use flat Pesa radar and keep them to yourself by your balloon industry, which even bought them from Armenian companies.It's also a funny point to boast of hitting a soccer field-size vehicle with a radar seeker in front of a simple solid rocket engine.

In addition, Ford commercial models and tow trucks that you see in Europe's richest countries today belong to Otosan, a Turkish company with all their rights and production. The same is true for Tofaş and other brands. You think you have developed by selling cheap cars to poor countries with French licenses, but when you look at the total earnings, your entire industry cannot compete with Otosan alone.

I respect Iranian efforts as compared to Arabs, but take your limits before you find it worth comparing yourself to us when you look at your quality of life, your companies, and where you live.

 

[MMM-E]

No need to get emotional and blab nonsense. The fact of the matter is that China is a world class weapons producer, building everything from scratch. Turkey has ambitions but is currently only assembling weapons systems whose vital components are all sourced from foreign nations.

Do you think is Z-10 Attack Helicopter Chinese technology ?
Russian KAMOV designed , developed and gave Z-10 Attack Helicopter to China
and China gets Engine technology from Ukraine, Russia and France


and T-129 ATAK is the best-performing Attack Helicopter in high altitude which Pakistan needs
China's Z-10 is low quality weapon which never can match with T-129 .... Pakistan very well knows about it



Turkey is only Country in İslamic World that develop and produce Helicopters - Turboshaft Engines

Turkey has its own technological capability to produce the main components of the Helicopters

-- fuselage
-- electronics and avionics
-- mission computer
-- Helicopter electronic warfare system
-- Infrared Counter Measure System
-- HELMET Integrated Display System
-- fire control radar
-- the main and tail landing gear
-- Engine
-- the transmission rotor
-- 20mm and 30 mm Gun with buried munition box
-- guided rocket
-- missiles

now Turkish TEI TS-1400 Turboshaft Engine for integration into the T-625 multi role Helicopter

Turkey has 2 different Attack Helicopter projects 6 tons class T-629 and 10 tons class T-929 ATAK-II
also 5 and 10 tons class Utility Helicopter projects

Turkey develops 100% indigenous T-629 Attack Helicopter including TS1400 turboshaft Engine




btw Pakistan should buy 100% İranian Attack Helicopter

 

[sha ah]

Again you guys are getting emotional. I wasn't comparing Iran to Turkey but here we go.

The difference between China and Turkey is that China is a producer. Turkey is a middle man, buying vital components and assembling stuff. Right now Turkey's tank project is stuck in the mud, no transmission or motor. Erdogan is offering to deactivate the S-400 because Turkey desperately requires spare parts for F-16s and drones. You want proof ?

Turkey’s Defense Industry Has Come A Long Way, But Ankara Still Relies Heavily On Foreign Suppliers

Turkey is not going to be able to end such dependencies by 2023, as President Erdogan has vowed, or even by the end of this decade.

www.forbes.com

Canadian block on drone parts shows Turkey’s defense industry still not independent

Despite major efforts in the last decade, Turkey still requires the import of key technologies for its homegrown defense articles.

www.defensenews.com

Turkey in talks with South Korea to salvage Altay tank program

A source with knowledge of Turkey's Altay program has told Defense News that the country is negotiating with a South Korean firm in an attempt to recover the struggling project.

www.defensenews.com

As for Iran, like I said, Iran has a fully indigenous nuclear program. Turkey is paying Russia $20 billion to setup a nuclear power plant run by Russian technicians.

What you don't seem to understand is that anybody with money can pay foreigners to do things like this. Just like the UAE has a "space program" run by foreigners and foreign equipment. Without the foreign workers and foreign equipment what would there be ? Nothing. Just like your F-35 program. You were a "partner" but when the US pulled out you got... NOTHING

Turkish drones ? Here let's have a look shall we...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1359942241050120192

https://twitter.com/x/status/1359943070486249473

https://twitter.com/x/status/1359944456129101825

https://twitter.com/FieldMarshalPSO/status/1359945913947586561
https://twitter.com/FieldMarshalPSO/status/1359946150149783554
https://twitter.com/FieldMarshalPSO/status/1359946423446474756

So the majority of parts are foreign and the most vital components are foreign, not Turkish. German, Canadian, UK, USA.
Like I said Turkey is an assembler, not a producer.

What's this a Turkish 5th generation fighter jet being built by a UK company ? hiring foreigners to work in Turkey ? So a foreign company hires foreign technicians, engineers, they build you a product and you call it Turkish because you paid for it ? LOL okay...

Careers in Turkey

If you’re looking for a unique challenge then discover outstanding career and job opportunities with BAE Systems in Turkey. Apply your talent where it counts.

www.baesystems.com

https://twitter.com/x/status/1359816219197657090

As far as Pakistan choosing between China and Turkey for helicopters, honestly it's a no brainer. It's not just a matter of the product, it's a matter of reliability. You can't get the original American engine for your product, now your turning to Ukraine ? You realize that Ukraine is completely corrupt and financially broken. They can't even supply their own clients with contracted weapons and their airforce and army is falling apart as we speak since they got cut off from Russia.

I mean think about it, in 20 years, China will be there and we all know who's going to be running the show. Turkey ? Will Erdogan's regime last another 20 years ? Will there be another military coup ? Will the same government be around in Ukraine in 20 years ? I doubt it but sure whatever floats your boat.

As for Iran, the country has a large fleet of helicopters that it maintains without any foreign assistance and Iran produces helicopters for a variety of purposes as well, albeit in small numbers right now, although there are plans for the future. You must forgive Iran if its helicopters are not as advanced as your "Turkish" models but there are no foreigners producing them with foreign components. There are also no foreign bases in Iran. That's for sure.

What you don't seem to understand is that when you don't have access to foreign components and licenses, it's a whole different game all together. Like I said, Turkey is learning this lesson the hard way right now as we speak with every move you try to make being blocked by foreigners. That's what happens when you're reliant on foreigners, they have power over your country and foreign policy. You don't want to take orders, they cut you off.

A tree doesn't grow in one day and when a country wants to build a fully indigenous manufacturing capacity, it takes time, effort money, trial & error, failures, etc.

How many times did North Korea fail to launch missiles ? How many of their tests failed ? People laughed. Now they can hit any city in the US mainland with a nuclear bomb. Nobody is laughing now.

Same thing when Koreans started their manufacturing industry. Japanese doubted them. Some people laughed. Their products were inferior for years. Now nobody is laughing.

Do you think is Z-10 Attack Helicopter Chinese technology ?
Russian KAMOV designed , developed and gave Z-10 Attack Helicopter to China
and China gets Engine technology from Ukraine, Russia and France


and T-129 ATAK is the best-performing Attack Helicopter in high altitude which Pakistan needs
China's Z-10 is low quality weapon which never can match with T-129 .... Pakistan very well knows about it



Turkey is only Country in İslamic World that develop and produce Helicopters - Turboshaft Engines

Turkey has its own technological capability to produce the main components of the Helicopters

-- fuselage
-- electronics and avionics
-- mission computer
-- Helicopter electronic warfare system
-- Infrared Counter Measure System
-- HELMET Integrated Display System
-- fire control radar
-- the main and tail landing gear
-- Engine
-- the transmission rotor
-- 20mm and 30 mm Gun with buried munition box
-- guided rocket
-- missiles

now Turkish TEI TS-1400 Turboshaft Engine for integration into the T-625 multi role Helicopter
View attachment 725657
View attachment 725658
View attachment 725659




Turkey has 2 different Attack Helicopter projects 6 tons class T-629 and 10 tons class T-929 ATAK-II
also 5 and 10 tons class Utility Helicopter projects

Turkey develops 100% indigenous T-629 Attack Helicopter including TS1400 turboshaft Engine




btw Pakistan should buy 100% İranian Attack Helicopter
View attachment 725660

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Best choice is for Pakistan buy more Mi-35M considering they already bought 4 of these for fighting drugs.

 

[Yongpeng Sun-Tastaufen]

Do you think is Z-10 Attack Helicopter Chinese technology ?
Russian KAMOV designed , developed and gave Z-10 Attack Helicopter to China
and China gets Engine technology from Ukraine, Russia and France

FYI Z-10 is 100% Chinese designed. The WZ-9 engines are also made in China.