Is India tearing itself apart?

[Ali.009]

Great! Name yourselves India then (on the lines of South and North Korea) .

Pakistan is indeed a small part of the Indic civilization.

But I doubt that is going to happen, since the whole focus of Pakistan was to downplay the Indic history and exaggerate newer Islamic layer.

You are lacking any knowledge. Stop living in false indian dreams, and read books, since i am sure you wont let me quote something :

FROM : Press. Copyright © 1991 by Columbia University Press :

Pakistan (pàk´î-stàn´, pä´kî-stän´) Abbr. Pak.
A country of southern Asia. Occupying land crisscrossed by ancient invasion paths, Pakistan was the home of the prehistoric Indus Valley civilization, which flourished until overrun by Aryans c. 1500 B.C. After being conquered by numerous rulers and powers, it passed to the British as part of India and became a separate Moslem state in 1947. The country originally included what is now Bangladesh, which declared its independence in 1971. Islamabad is the capital and Karachi the largest city. Population, 83,782,000. - Pak´istan´i (-stàn´ê, -stä´nê) adjective & noun

FROM : The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language

Indus valley civilization, c.2500-c.1500 B.C., ancient civilization that flourished along the Indus R. in present-day Pakistan. Its chief cities were Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa, where archaeologists have unearthed impressive public and private buildings that are evidence of a complex society based on a highly organized agriculture supplemented by active commerce. The arts flourished, and examples in copper, bronze, and pottery have been uncovered. Also found were examples of a pictograph script that long baffled archaeologists but was finally deciphered in 1969. The fate of the Indus valley civilization remains a mystery, but it is believed that it fell victim to invading Aryans.

FROM: The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia

An urban civilization with a so-far-undeciphered writing system stretched across the Indus Valley and along the Arabian Sea c3000-1500 BC. Major sites are Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro in Pakistan, well-planned geometric cities with underground sewers and vast granaries. The entire region (600,000 sq. mi.) may have been ruled as a single state. Bronze was used, and arts and crafts were highly developed. Religious life apparently took the form of fertility cults.

FROM : The World Almanac® and Book of Facts

Indus (în´des), chief river of Pakistan, c.1,900 mi (3,060 km) long, site of the prehistoric INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION. It rises in the TIBET region of China, flows west across Jammu and KASHMIR, India, then southwest through Pakistan, where it receives the “five waters” of the PUNJAB (the Chenab, Jhelum, Ravi, Beas, and Sutlej rivers), to an infertile clay delta on the Arabian Sea SE of Karachi. The unnavigable Indus is harnessed for irrigation and hydroelectricity by the Jinnah, Sukker, and Kotri dams. A treaty (1960) between India and Pakistan regulates withdrawals of water from the river and its tributaries.

FROM: The Concise Columbia Encyclopedia

Anthropologists have observed that the present population of …Punjab is said to be ethnically the same as the population of Harappa and Rupar 4000 years ago. Linguistically the present day population of Gujrat and Punjab belongs to the Indo-Aryan language speaking group. The only inference that can be drawn from the anthropological and linguistic evidences adduced above is that the Harappan population in the Indus Valley and Gujrat in 2000 BC was composed of two or more groups, the more dominent among them having very close ethnic affinities with the present day Indo-Aryan speaking population of India.

Should i quote more? Or are you feeling shameful over you lacking braincells and wrong beliefs infested in them?

IVC existed only in the Western part of the subcontinent, almost exclusively on the banks of the Indus (current day Pakistan). Therefore current day Pakistanis are inheritors of the IVC. There was a civilization in present day Pakistan. “India” did not exist 5000 years ago. The Sumerians called it Meluhha and Mekan. We don’t know what they called it. No one can be sure. “Pakistan” existed 5000 years ago in the IVC, even though the IVC probably did not call it Pakistan.

Pakistan is the natural inheritor of the Indus Valley Civilization, just like modern day China is the natural inheritor of the Chinese civilization (not called China then), and modern day Egypt in the natural inheritor of the Egyptian civilization (not called Egypt then). “Indus-valley-istan” existed 5000 years ago. Pakistan existed 5000 years ago, even though it was not called Pakistan.

One cannot accept the Lebanese, and the Syrian, and Cypriotic claim to the Egyptian civilization, and one cannot accept the Japanese claim to the original Chinese civilization. Similarly once cannot accept the “Indian” claim to the IVC. The “Indian” claim to the IVC is by association. The Egyptian claim to the “Egyptian” civilization is by geography.

​

 

[Flintlock]

^Apart from your usual BS insults, what exactly is your point?

 

[Ali.009]

^Apart from your usual BS insults, what exactly is your point?

Acting like a scared cat now? Dont you know my point eh? What is your point when you sit on your bed and dream of india being the rightful owner of IVC and then come here and write it? My post is just any asnwer to 'your point'. For that you need'ed to read my post before hitting the 'reply' button.

-Regards

 

[Flintlock]

Acting like a scared cat now? Dont you know my point eh? What is your point when you sit on your bed and dream of india being the rightful owner of IVC and then come here and write it? My post is just any asnwer to 'your point'. For that you need'ed to read my post before hitting the 'reply' button.

-Regards

Go to the history section and reply to the topic there. This topic has been discussed several times before.

In any case, A significant portion of the IVC falls within Indian borders, and it is likely that modern Indians are descendants of the IVC people.

Personally, I do not consider modern day Pakistanis as inheritors of the IVC, because they are descendants of tribes which occupied the IVC region after the civilization declined, or brought about its decline.

 

[Vinod2070]

But you said that many Pakistanis were 'pretenders' to Arab origins, which would imply that they are not really Arabs, so therefore they are not 'invaders', but people whose beliefs have evolved and changed as did those who turned to Hindusim before them.

And in any case, I do not see a majority of Pakistanis claiming to be Arabs, in fact I have no hard numbers on how many do. But I can say the majority I have come in contact with have not made that claim. Even if they are really descendants of Arabs, there seems to have been enough local intermarriages, and enough locals in teh overall population of Pakistan to ensure that we are the descendants of the peoples of those ancient civilizations.

By the way, the Pashtun also believe themselves to be descendant from Arabs and specifically some scions of Muhammed, so this narrative of roots stretching to Arabia is not merely confined to Pakistanis, but Afghan pashtun as well.

AM, again at the cost of repeating myself, I don't see it as a simple "evolution" that you see the events as.

The sheer hatreds that so many members have for their previous identities and their nation points to something other than "evolution".

Coming to your point, let's try to get an accurate estimation of the ethnic composition of Pakistani population from a reliable source but that is not the main point. The conversion on the part of most people (and not only on the subcontinent) meant a complete break from their previous civilizations and deriding the same as Jahiliyah. The founding fathers of Pakistan too talked of no other identity other than Islam.

Its only a later phenomenon among Pakistanis to start appropriating the pre-Islamic history (and that too they want exclusive copyright over that). We always say its a shared history before partition.

Have you seen any Arab talking of their pre-Islamic heritage and civilization?

 

[p2prada]

I still don't understand what doing Yoga has to do with the caste system. The English invented cricket, and they were christians. So should every cricket player owe a gratitutde to christianity?

Sports and religion are not to be mixed. Is yoga a sport???
Yoga was invented a 1000 years before Islam came into being. Cricket came only around 150 years ago. Can they be compared????
So many play hockey too. did i call hockey players hindu.

All i meant was the positive points of hindusim are stronger than the negative points.

Although i must say, you have finally acknowledged what I was saying. The Brahmans did invent the caste system, with the victims being those in the lowest castes, i.e. a majority of the people in Northern India.

I never said caste system is not a brahman invention. But people being victimised is your own lack of knowledge in the Hindu religion and the demographics of india. Do u know that 89% of Tamil Nadu consists of backward classes while only 9% consist of brahmans etc. Still Tamil Nadu is one of the richest states in india.

Plz be more specific in the future, without making blanket statements.

Exactly my point to u??

I challenge you to disprove any of my statements. I did not post anything that cannot be readily sourced from reputable Indian historians.

You havent proved your statement. All u have done till now is claim Brahmans are snakes.
You wont believe whatever i say. Speak to moderate and educated muslims in india. They will give u a better picture since they are the only muslims on the planet that lead a productive life with people from other religions.

What an outright lie, or a statement of complete ignorance. The shudra not being mentioned in the vedas?

Point it out to me please where in the vedas is the Shudra taken in the same breath as brahman, kshatriya or vaishya.

Have you forgotten the latest Mandala (X) in the Rig Veda, oft quoted by many Brahmin priests themselves?

I dont know this one too. Point it out to me please.

Do you know the Vedas is full of contemptual references towards teh local non-aryans, like Das, Dasyu and mleccha (maleechh)?

Point it out to me please. Since you carry such extensive knowledge of some of the largest works of literature by mankind.

Thanks for the above, you have made my point for me. The caste system is teh root of all social evils in Bharat, which were imposed by the conquering Aryans.

I dont deny it. It is the root of social evils in India. But it happened through spontaneous degradation of society. Had the Shudra system existed since the birth of hinduism, then hinduism wouldnt have existed at all.

Now I ask, the Aryans conquered and became the Brahmans, VAsiya and Kshatriya. Doesn't this prove that teh whole of the conquered population were enslaved and made Shudras?

More proof that your knowledge is significantly lacking.

The vedas are full of references to teh despised Daasa, or Das (servant, slave) who were the actual residents of Bharat before this invasion, and subsequently became the Das and Dasis of the Aryans.

You mean a local population subjugated by aggressors.
Remember this line since i m going to elaborate further on your second post.

Yes, it still exists in INdia.



Yes I do, and he comes every year to get money for his firm's yearly calendar. Unfortunately for you, I don't run out of his shadow straight to the power shower. I offer him a cuppa, and he's on his way.

However, I am surprised that you want to juxtapose your beliefs on other people. You may have exported Yoga, but you will never be able to export the caste system to teh west, or even the east for that matter, because people will despise even the notion of it.

The caste system already exists in the world under a different name. Instead of brahmans etc, they are called doctors,teachers etc. Caste system can never cease to exist even in the most utopian of societies. It is only the way people tend to think that matters. It is their upbringing etc. The caste system only gives information on the persons line of work. It is upto the person if he wants to be respected or not, be it a doctor or a garbage collector.

Imagine a doctor[BRAHMAN] starts ignoring the garbage collector[SHUDRA] even in our time. Then the same doctor tells his son not to go near the garbage collector cause he is dirty etc etc. This is how the SHUDRA was born.

If you live in the west, and refuse to shake the hands of janitors, or people doing menial working class jobs, you will only expose teh deficiencies in your own culture and upbringing. It won't hurt the person you will have affronted.

Exactly my point. And you proved it too. All the negativities of a caste system is brought about by bad education. Illiteracy brings about superstitions that in turn lead to creation of social evils like child marriage.
It was not some conspiracy by the brahmans and kshatriyas.

In todays modern world, a DOCTOR has the highest respect in society. Other fields donot carry as much weight as medicine does. If he starts denouncing all those people "below" him, then what respect does he have left. Isnt it the personal choice of the doctor that he has lost respect. Do u want to blame all doctors because of this doctors personal choice.

Well I wouldn't touch your hand either if you just come out of a manhole. However, if you take your gloves off, I probably would shake your hand. When I do the spring cleaning at home, my wife doesnt even want to smell me let alone touch until I have a shower. So by your account, we have recreated the caste structure in our own home. What a ludicrous analogy.

You are only comparing todays knowledge in hygiene compared to 2000 years ago.

The fact of the matter is, the garbage man is not told that he is born to collect garbage, and that his progeny will do this work forever. And secondly, after a day's toil, he goes home and showers, and meets up with friends and relatives, and maybe even someone like me. They certainly don't avoide touching him, so no, he is not an untouchable.

As for the statement in bold, the fact that his son has to continue his fathers line of work was made up by some idiotic indian kings in order to "purify" the race. We already discussed that. Society changed with time to inspire negativity. But, you refuse to see that and only believe that Brahmans are the cause for everything bad in india with the little information you have about hinduism.

However, no matter how m uch a shudra, dalit, untouchable, maleechh cleans himself, no matter how many litres of shampoo and pounds of soap he uses, he will always remain untouchable and dirty in the minds of the xenophobic Bhartis who subscribe to this caste system.

Only hardline extremist muslims think it is ok to kill innocents, or is it that ALL muslims think it is OK to KILL innocents. The same way do u think all Brahmins show hatred towards the dalits.

Another important question is, how many cleaners does a country like India need, where according to your statement, most people tend to, or used to go to the fields or woods to defecate. Why would you need a Shudra at that point, since toilets at home were pretty rare in ancient times, although not unheard of.

There were families who were hired to clean up farms et al. These families are the ones facing the brunt.

The percentage of shudras in India is so staggeringly high (esp. Northern India) that there must be another reason for this phenomenon. These are just not people who happened to be cleaners, because in no society on earth has teh cleaning population outnumbered the general population. The real reason was because these people were enslaved by the marauding/settling Aryans. This is a fact that cannot be denied.

Most of the population in north india are Aryans. There are a lot of ARYAN untouchables too.

Now don't get your dhoti in a twist about the fact taht teh Brahmans did this. If you are Brahman let me tell you, that I am in no way intending to disrespect your caste. HOwever, one must take ownership of history.

I am a Brahman. Most of my friends are the so called untouchables. All they would actually do is laugh at your theories.

You want to blame the kshatriyas, but I say there was a conspiracy between the two jatis. Since they were Aryan brothers, they decided to carve up India fro themselves, one becoming the ruling class, while the other becoming the priests who due to their knowledge of sankrti and vedic rituals imposed upon others, had a steady income. Both these, along with the vaisya conspired to create and uphold this system.

Do u know that the same untouchables are also called Vaishyas since they own farmlands and they are part of indias agricultural society. Most dalits, SC, ST, OBC etc are just farmers and they are entitled to call themselves Vaishyas.
But most lower castes claim that since their forefathers were harassed the modern govt is entitled to give them sops. There were some cases where some people concot hate crime stories to receive concessions from the govt. There are so many super rich "untouchables" in our india.

The unforunate locals, the Dravidians, the Adivasis were the victims of this conspiracy,and still have not able to loosen the shackles of slavery after so many millenia.

Most of south indians are called Dravidians. South India is THE RICHEST and THE MOST PROGRESSED PART of india.

 

[p2prada]

OK. since the Indus valley civilization basically was the history of pakistan. Then it is OK to believe that the muslims in paksitan were hindus earlier since they worshiped Idols like Mother Goddess, Pashupati and also practised animal and tree worship.

Do u know the Aryan symbol the "swastika" was invented during the time of the Indus valley civilization.


Actually, many Muslims in the subcontinent have an identity crisis. They do not want to accept that they were buddhists and hindus and that they were converted. They like to believe they were born as muslims since ancient times. Some even like to relate to some or the other muslim invader.
The same way the decline of persian civilization gave the same kind of identity crisis to the Iraqis. Were they Perisans who worshiped the sun and the moon or were they Muslim since the beginning. Similarly how well can the egyptians relate themselves to their RA worshiping forefathers.

Same thing with the Christians. Were they the roman and greek Pagans or were they cousins of christ's followers.

But in the end both believe that they were saved from their old ways of life by adopting new religions.

 

[Imran Khan]

They do not want to accept that they were buddhists and hindus and that they were converted. They like to believe they were born as muslims since ancient times.

you right our fathers were hindus

 

[Ali.009]

Go to the history section and reply to the topic there. This topic has been discussed several times before.

In any case, A significant portion of the IVC falls within Indian borders, and it is likely that modern Indians are descendants of the IVC people.

Personally, I do not consider modern day Pakistanis as inheritors of the IVC, because they are descendants of tribes which occupied the IVC region after the civilization declined, or brought about its decline.

Nobody gives a tiny ***'s **** to anyone's personal opinions. They dont make them true. What are facts will remain so. You are ignorant to see the map that how much portion of IVC was located inside 'india' which means land of indus. Above, Ive posted more then enough which you can digest.

You can also personally think that Sun will shine only once a year, yet it dsnt change the fact, and nobody will pay attention to such bullshit.

 

[Flintlock]

Nobody gives a tiny ***'s **** to anyone's personal opinions. They dont make them true. What are facts will remain so. You are ignorant to see the map that how much portion of IVC was located inside 'india' which means land of indus. Above, Ive posted more then enough which you can digest.

You can also personally think that Sun will shine only once a year, yet it dsnt change the fact, and nobody will pay attention to such bullshit.

1. India refers to the land east of the Indus. That would include eastern Pakistan as well.

2. Your post is your personal opinion too, same as mine. Whether you want to give a ***'s arse is entirely upto you. Seeing as you replied to my post it seems that you do give a ***'s arse after all.

3. All this is has been posted before in the history section. Go through the relevant thread.

 

[Always Neutral]

Nobody gives a tiny ***'s **** to anyone's personal opinions. They dont make them true. What are facts will remain so. You are ignorant to see the map that how much portion of IVC was located inside 'india' which means land of indus. Above, Ive posted more then enough which you can digest.

You can also personally think that Sun will shine only once a year, yet it dsnt change the fact, and nobody will pay attention to such bullshit.

How can any Pakistani or Indian claim IVC was theirs since its located in both countries and most of the people migrated from all over British India to present day pakistan and vice versa in 1949.

Regards

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Ok, 1971 related posts have once again been moved over to the rlevant thread:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-history/8639-disproving-some-genocide-claims.html

 

[UnitedPak]

How can any Pakistani or Indian claim IVC was theirs since its located in both countries and most of the people migrated from all over British India to present day pakistan and vice versa in 1949.

Regards

I dont know where you think Indus Valley is, but the only two cities which defined this civilisation were Harappa and Mohenjo Daro. Both in Pakistan. These two cities were the center of IVC, and the only cities with significant architecture and artefacts.

In case you want to bring so called Indian cities to the discussion, note that Dholavira was inhabited until the 15th century, and most of the settlements they find these days have no architecture or artefacts to even link them with IVC. Even Mehragh is not considered to be part of Indus Valley. (You can read all about this in the stickied thread in the Military history forum. We have had lengthy discussions about this).

About the Partition, there is no need to bring 1947 politics into Pakistan's ancient history. And just for the record, the vast majority people in Pakistan are native. Modern Indians have no claim over Pakistani land on basis of migrations.
Its also rather silly to label entire ethnic groups 'Indic' just to associate their history with your country.

Here are a few useful maps.

 

[p2prada]

The actual reason why the indus valley civilization is more indian than pakistani is because of the legacy. The same religious rules are practiced among the hindus even today. Just because of some minor differences in geography does not mean that our identity with the IVC is not ours.

Similarly, the many pakistani muslims like to associate themselves with the muslim invaders who are of Arab origins. Meaning pakistans legacy is more inclined towards the arabs than towards indian hindus. Geographically the IVC is pakistani. But, socially, religiously and spiritually IVC is truly indian.

 

[donrahul]

The actual reason why the indus valley civilization is more indian than pakistani is because of the legacy. The same religious rules are practiced among the hindus even today. Just because of some minor differences in geography does not mean that our identity with the IVC is not ours.

Similarly, the many pakistani muslims like to associate themselves with the muslim invaders who are of Arab origins. Meaning pakistans legacy is more inclined towards the arabs than towards indian hindus. Geographically the IVC is pakistani. But, socially, religiously and spiritually IVC is truly indian.

Some of you trace your lineage from Mohd.Bin. Quasim. I guess he invaded Coastal Pakistan.. There is even a YOUTUBE Video/song for it and I have seen Pakistanis adoring it... Either you are from here or there.. There is no highway option..