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Is India tearing itself apart?

DS, both you and Munshi have not replied to the many points I have raised in this thread.

Want to give a try?

What points you have raised? That India aint collapsing? LOL even the freaking brigdes are collapsing. Flaming other people and calling them 'idiot' etc isnt called point raising. You should learn manners before you respresent your points, which arent even there.

-Regards
 
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Neo 1kg rice costs Rs1 in Tamilnadu in PDS. The quality of rice is decent too.Entire lot of spices for one month costs Rs 50 . Sugar costs Rs 15 per Kg which is enough for one month. The eligibility for a family of three is 20 KG rice per month which is more than enough . Kerosene is available dirt cheap in case you are poor and are operating Kerosene stove. Err in case you are poor and can afford LPG which costs Rs 300 per cylinder (which is enough for one month) you will certainly receive a Gas stove free of cosy sponsored by Government. Thus 1 ppp dollar is way too much enough to buy rice for the entire month which should cost 20 Rs. 1 PPP dollar can buy you a lot of things in India and much more in case you are in rural India.

IPF


Wow!! thanks for the post. Incredible India. Sounds like heaven. I want to put a downpayment to book my slum hut in Dharavi. Can you help me get immigration and visa?
 
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You should best remember why 3 millions of you were killed and raped,

Hogwash and lies.

Keep repeating a lie long enough and you think it will come true.

Atrocities committed, yes, and they are to be regretted and condemned, but nothing close to this poppycock you continuously spout.

The invitation to prove your claims is, as always, open on the 'Proving Bangladesh genocide' thread. Do so or quit repeating a lie.
 
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No muslim practices christian and hindu beliefs, obvioulsy. many hindus dont follow muslim and christian beliefs. Same with the christians too.
But, Yoga was invented by the same brahmans that invented the caste system. Still so many follow the practise of yoga, one of the best hindu inventions.


I still don't understand what doing Yoga has to do with the caste system. The English invented cricket, and they were christians. So should every cricket player owe a gratitutde to christianity?

Although i must say, you have finally acknowledged what I was saying. The Brahmans did invent the caste system, with the victims being those in the lowest castes, i.e. a majority of the people in Northern India.

None of your points and arguments make any sense.


Plz be more specific in the future, without making blanket statements.

Your knowledge on the caste system is weak and your allegations are completely baseless.

I challenge you to disprove any of my statements. I did not post anything that cannot be readily sourced from reputable Indian historians.

Its the same concept like Jihad in the Quran. It has humble beginnings, but over the years the concept of Jihad was twisted and destroyed by various mullahs to suit their purpose. It was the same with the caste system.

According to the caste system, a Brahman is one who is enlightened, like doctors and the teachers.
Kshatriyas are ones who serve society through leadership, like kings and soldiers.
vaishyas are the normal folk like traders, farmers etc.

There was no such thing called "SHUDRA." The word doesn't exist in the vedas.


What an outright lie, or a statement of complete ignorance. The shudra not being mentioned in the vedas?

Have you forgotten the latest Mandala (X) in the Rig Veda, oft quoted by many Brahmin priests themselves?

"The Brahmin was his mouth, of both arms was the rajanya(kshatriya) made, his thighs became the vaisya, from his feet the shudra was produced" Rig Veda (X),n.90.

Do you know the Vedas is full of contemptual references towards teh local non-aryans, like Das, Dasyu and mleccha (maleechh)?

According to the vedas, a brahman can become a vaishya or kshatriya.
similarly a vaishya can become a brahman or a kshatriya. a kshatriya can become a brahman or vaishya too. It was left upto the people what career path they chose.

But, as time progressed. Some idiotic kings decided that the "purity" of a brahmana must not be lost and they came up with laws that say a brahmana must remain a brahmana, a kshitraya must remain a kshatriya while a vaishya must remain a vaishya. These half baked ideas are similar to the way the Mullahs have twisted Islamic ideals like Jihad.


In our present day, we can become whoever we want to be. a doctor, a businessman, teachers, soldiers, politicians etc.
Now, imagine a law is passed where the son of a doctor must only go into the field of medicine, a teachers son must become a teacher, a politician's son must become a politician. Such a law can destroy society. The same thing happened to the caste system. A few thousand years of it made sure the caste system becomes a social evil.


Thanks for the above, you have made my point for me. The caste system is teh root of all social evils in Bharat, which were imposed by the conquering Aryans.

Now I ask, the Aryans conquered and became the Brahmans, VAsiya and Kshatriya. Doesn't this prove that teh whole of the conquered population were enslaved and made Shudras?

The vedas are full of references to teh despised Daasa, or Das (servant, slave) who were the actual residents of Bharat before this invasion, and subsequently became the Das and Dasis of the Aryans.

The existence of Shudra came due to illiteracy and a lack of flexibility. There has always been a group of people who do dirty work in all societies in the world. For example, people who worked in sanitation. They had to bear the brunt of the caste system. Do u know where people S**t or dumped garbage before the advent of modern day sanitation. It was in the open fields. Do u know who cleaned up the mess??? It was the very same people who are now called the Shudras. Untouchability isnt an indian invention. It existed in all societies in the ancient times and it exists in todays society too.

Yes, it still exists in INdia.

Darkstar u live in brussels right. There is a sanitation company that comes to your house once a week to collect garbage right. Have you ever spoken to the guy who collects your garbage?

Yes I do, and he comes every year to get money for his firm's yearly calendar. Unfortunately for you, I don't run out of his shadow straight to the power shower. I offer him a cuppa, and he's on his way.

However, I am surprised that you want to juxtapose your beliefs on other people. You may have exported Yoga, but you will never be able to export the caste system to teh west, or even the east for that matter, because people will despise even the notion of it. If you live in the west, and refuse to shake the hands of janitors, or people doing menial working class jobs, you will only expose teh deficiencies in your own culture and upbringing. It won't hurt the person you will have affronted.


Do u know that it is not easy to come out of a manhole connected to the drain. You need to lift yourself up to get out. Have you ever given a helping hand to lift him out. NEVER. So I guess that makes the garbage man and the drainage guy untouchable in every sense of the word.

How many times have you shaken the hands of a doctor who always charges an exhorbitant fee and how many times have you shaken the hands of the garbage collector who actually works for a pittance.
The doctor and the garbage collector can easily be related to a Brahmana and a shudra. Do you get my point???


Well I wouldn't touch your hand either if you just come out of a manhole. However, if you take your gloves off, I probably would shake your hand. When I do the spring cleaning at home, my wife doesnt even want to smell me let alone touch until I have a shower. So by your account, we have recreated the caste structure in our own home. What a ludicrous analogy.

The fact of the matter is, the garbage man is not told that he is born to collect garbage, and that his progeny will do this work forever. And secondly, after a day's toil, he goes home and showers, and meets up with friends and relatives, and maybe even someone like me. They certainly don't avoide touching him, so no, he is not an untouchable.

However, no matter how m uch a shudra, dalit, untouchable, maleechh cleans himself, no matter how many litres of shampoo and pounds of soap he uses, he will always remain untouchable and dirty in the minds of the xenophobic Bhartis who subscribe to this caste system.

Another important question is, how many cleaners does a country like India need, where according to your statement, most people tend to, or used to go to the fields or woods to defecate. Why would you need a Shudra at that point, since toilets at home were pretty rare in ancient times, although not unheard of.

The percentage of shudras in India is so staggeringly high (esp. Northern India) that there must be another reason for this phenomenon. These are just not people who happened to be cleaners, because in no society on earth has teh cleaning population outnumbered the general population. The real reason was because these people were enslaved by the marauding/settling Aryans. This is a fact that cannot be denied.

This has to be an eye opener to many of the members who blindly believe that the caste system is a conspiracy by the brahmans to destroy our society.

Society created Shudra and not the Brahmana.

Now don't get your dhoti in a twist about the fact taht teh Brahmans did this. If you are Brahman let me tell you, that I am in no way intending to disrespect your caste. HOwever, one must take ownership of history.

You want to blame the kshatriyas, but I say there was a conspiracy between the two jatis. Since they were Aryan brothers, they decided to carve up India fro themselves, one becoming the ruling class, while the other becoming the priests who due to their knowledge of sankrti and vedic rituals imposed upon others, had a steady income. Both these, along with the vaisya conspired to create and uphold this system.

The unforunate locals, the Dravidians, the Adivasis were the victims of this conspiracy,and still have not able to loosen the shackles of slavery after so many millenia.

Before saying goodbye, a quote from teh highly respected INdian scholar, R.C. Majumder should shed some light on this conflict between the invading Aryans and the local Dravidian Bharati population

"It was not merely a struggle between two .. The Dravidians had to fight for their very existence...But all in vain...The Dravidians put up a brave fight, and laid down their lives in hundreds and thousands on various battlefields, but ultimately had to succumb to the attacks of the invaders. The Aryans destroyed their castles and cities, burnt their houses, and reduced a large number of them to slaves." R.C Majumder, Ancient INdia, p.30.

Dig Vijaya.
 
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Vinod:
Doesn't matter. They all shared the same culture and civilization. The Indian civilization and there was always the realization that they are one nation.

When there is nothing tangible to point to in order to validate this 'ancient nation' concept, resort to this poppycock of 'Indic Civilization'.

Multiple races, ethnicities, cultures and peoples, that is the truth of South Asia.

The Indic Civilization is nothing more than a Hindu version of Ummah, which so many of you denigrate and rubbish.
 
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Everyone lay off the personal attacks please.

No need to call someone illiterate or a terrorist because you do not agree with their comments.

In fact the whole terrorist name calling is highly offensive.

Infractions will follow next.
 
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Indian civilisatin this, Indian civilisation that...quit this phoney mantra. Pakistan is the natural progression of Indian civilisation. The most these guys can claim to is Deccani, Doabi, Gangetic, or Dravidian civilisation.

Bhaarat has as much to do with Indian civilisation as the sicilian mafioso have with the Sistine Chapel.

We as Pakistanis are the true inheritors of INdic/Indian civilisation, while you have just plaguarised this name, and tried to make it your own.
 
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True, the indus valley civilizations also belonged to the region in Pakistan, not India. If any country in this region that represents the ancient civilizations, its Pakistan. Even the name India is drived from Indus.

First thing india needs to do is, atleast decide a correct name, before they can start thinking about their civilization owned by bharamans.
 
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Wow!! thanks for the post. Incredible India. Sounds like heaven. I want to put a downpayment to book my slum hut in Dharavi. Can you help me get immigration and visa?

I don't live in Dharavi, or in Bombay(By the wayBombay, UP and Bihar or the north alone does not count as India ), whether you want to live or not is your call. India does not gaurentee you heaven it gives the opportunity for you to convert your existance into heaven through hard work , education and more hardwork, no two ways about it. Put it simply compared to your nations eduacted , educated in India have more opportunities then ever before. What kind of opportunty do educated in your country get except running to west. Today India is a land of opportunities and it is upto the people to utilise this. How many farmers in Pakistan engage in precision farming, how many fishermen in your nation engage in pecision fishing, we do it in hordes here. So in South Asian context we are becoming a land of opportunity rather then becoming a liability to the world.

IPF

IPF
 
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The invitation to prove your claims is, as always, open on the 'Proving Bangladesh genocide' thread.

Sheikh Mujibur Rahman could not count properly so he unwittingly added an extra zero at the end of 300 000. What he meant to say was 300 000 killed not 3 million. Unfortunately the figure of 3 million has stuck ever since that interview with the BBC.
 
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Indian civilisatin this, Indian civilisation that...quit this phoney mantra. Pakistan is the natural progression of Indian civilisation. The most these guys can claim to is Deccani, Doabi, Gangetic, or Dravidian civilisation.

Bhaarat has as much to do with Indian civilisation as the sicilian mafioso have with the Sistine Chapel.

We as Pakistanis are the true inheritors of INdic/Indian civilisation, while you have just plaguarised this name, and tried to make it your own.

Do you know more about Pakistan than Mr. Jinnah? Even he never made such a claim.

Pakistan claims to represent the Islamic invaders to this land. You try to represent the legacy of Bin Qasims, Gazanis, Abdalis et al.

You have nothing to do with the Pre-Islamic history. Most of you claim to be inherited from all over the place and not natives of the land. In fact the natives are derided as Afjals while the invaders are called Ashrafs. Millions fake themselves as Quraishis, more than there are in Arabia.

You have as much to do with the Pre-Islamic history of this land as Turks have to do with the Greco-Roman empre, that is zilch.

Just occupation of other's land don't make you inheritor of their history and civilization.
 
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The number was not important. That's the number I have read in many places even international books, but it itself is not important.

What is important is that the large scale atrocities took place because of the reasons I mentioned.

Atrocities were committed all round in that conflict. You should have seen how the Mukti Bahini and Mujib Bahini behaved. What is not documented is the Bengali on Bengali violence that occurred. Some of the killings of leftists were carried out on the orders of RAW. It is not clear how many deaths were caused by Indian policy of elimination and assassination.
 
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Pakistan is the natural progression of Indian civilisation.

Great! Name yourselves India then (on the lines of South and North Korea) .

Pakistan is indeed a small part of the Indic civilization.

But I doubt that is going to happen, since the whole focus of Pakistan was to downplay the Indic history and exaggerate newer Islamic layer.
 
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Just occupation of other's land don't make you inheritor of their history and civilization.

But you said that many Pakistanis were 'pretenders' to Arab origins, which would imply that they are not really Arabs, so therefore they are not 'invaders', but people whose beliefs have evolved and changed as did those who turned to Hindusim before them.

And in any case, I do not see a majority of Pakistanis claiming to be Arabs, in fact I have no hard numbers on how many do. But I can say the majority I have come in contact with have not made that claim. Even if they are really descendants of Arabs, there seems to have been enough local intermarriages, and enough locals in teh overall population of Pakistan to ensure that we are the descendants of the peoples of those ancient civilizations.

By the way, the Pashtun also believe themselves to be descendant from Arabs and specifically some scions of Muhammed, so this narrative of roots stretching to Arabia is not merely confined to Pakistanis, but Afghan pashtun as well.
 
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