Inside the OBL Raid

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I can't say I know much about 1947 issue you have raised being that the entire country and its citizenry was up in arms and not funded, supported and directed by the govt as in the case of your " insurgents". 1971 was the Indian army fighting you guys, and so it can't be claimed as being terrorists...else the Islamic countries support of Palestinians would be called aiding terrorists.

Thanks for the excerpt Jay, but it does not have any 'official', active military/GoP source claiming Pakistani knowledge and/or participation in the raid.

The rebels in Junagadh did in fact form a 'provisional government' in India, and they did receive 'logistical' support from India. They were also indirectly assisted by India's 'blockade' of Junagadh.

In East Pakistan I am referring to the covert support provided to East Pakistani insurgents by the Indian military and para-military organizations, that has been well documented by Indian writers and former military officials. Even leaving aside the argument of 'when' this support started (to debunk the refugee excuse), the fact is that if we use your clear cut logic of 'insurgents = terrorists', India was supporting terrorists against Pakistan in 1971.

But we are going way off topic - there are a few existing threads that have had this exact argument - for one, there is a 'denouncing Indira Gandhi' thread I started. If you wish you can read through those and continue responding there.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Americans are known liars. How many versions have we now heard about the obl raid. Im starting to think it prob never happend and the guy was dead before etc.

Well, I still don't buy the 'burial at sea' explanation - the guy is either alive in US custody or was killed a long time ago.

 

[JayAtl]

Well, I still don't buy the 'burial at sea' explanation - the guy is either alive in US custody or was killed a long time ago.

really? you think as a living breathing person living in America that America has him stashed away, risking constitutional laws and the president risking going to jail. The very man who is desperately trying and tried to close Gitmo, who did manage to close over seas rendition cells, who banned water boarding-- has approved to hoodwink the country, it's citizens and the sheer amount of people needed to be involved are all lying for him...

why do you have such a low opinion of our country? actually it's beyond opinion its conspiratorial.

 

[fd24]

Yea I mean why would these liar americans come out with so many versions. The white house press guy changed his tune about six times in the first 24 hours of rthe supposed raid. First OBL used his wife as a shield. Next OBL had a weapon. Next he had no weapon. That is the true sign of liars. Americans are liars. Thats it sweet and simple.

 

[Xeric]

well why not educate me what is insurgent and what is a terrorist?

The issue is not of lack of any comprehensible definition of these, but your own lack of the will to understand the difference. To understand the difference any online dictionary would do the trick, but then the question remains, are you willing to accept the same or not?

At best, we consider and like to call our operations in FATA as "Law Enforcement Operation against Elements Challenging the Writ of Govt", now how does that sound?

Better yet, why dont you let us know if this new terminology cause any problems as regards to our will to fight out violence or if it effects the outcome of such operations or bar us from going after those people who are a threat to peace?

If the answer is a 'no', then why would it bother a blogger like yourself to accept the difference, unless you are trying to hint any legal issue in this case?

Dont consider that only the Yanks are guud at creating terminologies (like collateral damage, (G)WoT etc) to save their arse from many ills, we too know how to handle issues at our own, which obviously you are oblivious of.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

really? you think as a living breathing person living in America that America has him stashed away, risking constitutional laws and the president risking going to jail. The very man who is desperately trying and tried to close Gitmo, who did manage to close over seas rendition cells, who banned water boarding-- has approved to hoodwink the country, it's citizens and the sheer amount of people needed to be involved are all lying for him...

why do you have such a low opinion of our country? actually it's beyond opinion its conspiratorial.

The US has done a lot of covert and overt operations throughout history, under the guise of 'national interest' that allow me to be skeptical of the claims of the US Establishment, much like many Indians and Americans would view the claims of the Pakistani establishment with skepticism, given the 'covert and overt operations' Pakistan has been involved in.

Take a look at this article, and how the CIA Chief in Pakistan acted in a petty and antagonistic manner, in defiance of the US Ambassador to Pakistan, at a critical juncture in the US-Pak relationship:

The Predator drone, with its pinpoint accuracy the Americans tell us, is the best weapon available to kill militants. The remote-controlled weaponised planes supposedly hit only the target and minimise the loss of innocent life. The drone may well live up to that description but its use, including which targets it hits, is still decided by fallible humans. Poor intelligence and rash decision-making is still the overriding factor in the use of this weapon. A report that the recently departed CIA station chief in Pakistan ordered a drone attack the day after CIA contractor Raymond Davis was controversially released from prison is sure to create further ill-will among the two countries. The report further stated that the timing of the attack was meant to send a message to the ISI and was carried out despite the rare objection of the US ambassador.

It is one of the worst kept secrets in the world that Pakistan has quietly acquiesced to the American use of drones. But this latest report clearly takes things too far and is sure to lead to further strains in an already beleaguered relationship. US military contractors and trainees have already been told to leave, and the movements of US diplomats have also been curtailed. In retaliation, the US slashed military aid to Pakistan and is reported to be mulling similar restrictions on Pakistani diplomats in America. The two countries are still nominally allies but the alliance is clearly dysfunctional for now.

Dissent on drones – The Express Tribune

The CIA would appear to be no better than the ISI in terms of acting in a 'roguish fashion'.

Given the report above, the comments that many made about the 'coincidence of US drone strikes at critical moments', embarrassing the GoP and PA, now make sense.

The CIA has played a very large role in damaging the US-Pak relationship.

 

[JayAtl]

The US has done a lot of covert and overt operations throughout history, under the guise of 'national interest' that allow me to be skeptical of the claims of the US Establishment, much like many Indians and Americans would view the claims of the Pakistani establishment with skepticism, given the 'covert and overt operations' Pakistan has been involved in.

Take a look at this article, and how the CIA Chief in Pakistan acted in a petty and antagonistic manner, in defiance of the US Ambassador to Pakistan, at a critical juncture in the US-Pak relationship:



Dissent on drones – The Express Tribune

The CIA would appear to be no better than the ISI in terms of acting in a 'roguish fashion'.

Given the report above, the comments that many made about the 'coincidence of US drone strikes at critical moments', embarrassing the GoP and PA, now make sense.

The CIA has played a very large role in damaging the US-Pak relationship.

I.m sorry- but what does your quoted text have to do with the subject matter- even if the quoted text is to be believed to be true. It would be at best flexing of priorities as the CIA does not report to an ambassador . besides it was not covert-- drone attack is agreed by your govt and visible to the public.

The past CIA doings was not covert to the law makers and when anything was deemed as unlawful congress pulled it into the public arena and went after it...

you seem to be of two minds here... one is yes they got him but are hiding him and other is they never got him that day and lied about - in spite of your own Pak govt confirming the kill and OBL's kin confirming it...

for example: would be akin to me claiming you are really not American but a covert ISI spy in our country..just because of my conspiratorial thoughts - not based on any facts and in defiance of truth and proof.

 

[JayAtl]

The issue is not of lack of any comprehensible definition of these, but your own lack of the will to understand the difference. To understand the difference any online dictionary would do the trick, but then the question remains, are you willing to accept the same or not?

At best, we consider and like to call our operations in FATA as "Law Enforcement Operation against Elements Challenging the Writ of Govt", now how does that sound?

Better yet, why dont you let us know if this new terminology cause any problems as regards to our will to fight out violence or if it effects the outcome of such operations or bar us from going after those people who are a threat to peace?

If the answer is a 'no', then why would it bother a blogger like yourself to accept the difference, unless you are trying to hint any legal issue in this case?

Dont consider that only the Yanks are guud at creating terminologies (like collateral damage, (G)WoT etc) to save their arse from many ills, we too know how to handle issues at our own, which obviously you are oblivious of.

So let me see- I claimed insurgents are terrorists ( one and the same)
You said I have no clue and lack comprehension and need to know it sooner than later there is a difference

Then I asked you a one line question to please tell me the difference since you claimed to know it...
And you above, gave me a thesis as a reply but never answered the basic question, the answer to which you originally claimed to know... heh

you govt calls acts from terrorist in FATA as " acts of terrorism" ...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I.m sorry- but what does your quoted text have to do with the subject matter- even if the quoted text is to be believed to be true. It would be at best flexing of priorities as the CIA does not report to an ambassador . besides it was not covert-- drone attack is agreed by your govt and visible to the public.

At that moment in time, with public outrage over Raymond Davis running high and the US-Pak relationship was deteriorating, negotiations would have been best handled through avoiding such inflammatory actions, especially when the targets were, at best, low-mod level recruits. The US Ambassador understood this, and apparently communicated this to the CIA Chief, and was disregarded out of petty arrogance and antagonism. BTW, this account was first reported in US papers reporting the departure of this particular CIA Chief, so take up its veracity with the US media.

I think we can safely assume that the man was kicked out, and did not 'leave due to illness'.

And what the account suggests, along with past CIA covert operations (Iran Contra for example), is that the CIA and US military establishment are by far 'not above' acting as rogues and deceiving both the American public and the rest of the world.

The past CIA doings was not covert to the law makers and when anything was deemed as unlawful congress pulled it into the public arena and went after it...

US Lawmakers, AFAIK, were not aware of Iran Contra. Nor would they be aware of every single covert operation or decision made by the CIA - to assume they know every single detail is naive. Secrecy due to national security is a very powerful and oft used argument.

you seem to be of two minds here... one is yes they got him but are hiding him and other is they never got him that day and lied about - in spite of your own Pak govt confirming the kill and OBL's kin confirming it...

They either got him and he is alive, or they killed him a long time ago and carried out the op to pile up pressure on Pakistan.
Why bury him at sea so quickly? US justifications make no sense. A couple of days to fly in international journalists/officials to confirm the death would not have changed anything.

for example: would be akin to me claiming you are really not American but a covert ISI spy in our country..just because of my conspiratorial thoughts - not based on any facts and in defiance of truth and proof.

But you have no justification for such an allegation, given my past or current actions - I do have justification for my allegations given past and current US Establishment actions.

 

[Hulk]

I am not convinced that such a plan would have been carried out - to do so would also result in the destruction/significant damage of several air-bases, and possibly any 'strategic assets' based there along with PAF aircraft.

Such an attack would constitute a significant degradation of Pakistan's defensive capabilities, along with the uncertainty (on the part of Pakistani decision makers) over whether India was also involved and whether such an attack constituted the first phase of a US-India invasion of Pakistan, or at the very least a US-India destruction of Pakistan's military/deterrent capability.

In short, such an attack would more than likely cross Pakistan's 'nuclear threshold'.

I understand that the US media has been propagating the line (on behalf of the US establishment) of 'take out the PAF', but that is more likely to be 'bravado' for domestic public consumption, rather than actual policy. Especially since the SEAL team could have surrendered and quietly been returned back to the US, with no loss of life and major diplomatic/military incident taking place.

The nuke thing you posted, are you serious. US attacks PAK and destroys its defence and you are saying you will use nuke against whom? There is reason world does not feel comfortable with PAK nukes. I thought you talk seriously, but this is disappointing.

 

[Xeric]

really? you think as a living breathing person living in America that America has him stashed away, risking constitutional laws and the president risking going to jail. The very man who is desperately trying and tried to close Gitmo, who did manage to close over seas rendition cells, who banned water boarding-- has approved to hoodwink the country, it's citizens and the sheer amount of people needed to be involved are all lying for him...

why do you have such a low opinion of our country? actually it's beyond opinion its conspiratorial.

Oh the moral high horse, yet again.

i wonder if the same high moral pedestal was available to Bush Sire when he lied and lied and then went into Iraq.

P.S. i can see that your brain is unable to comprehend minor details, and also that you lack the basic ability to google out certain things, so there's no use for me to hammer a simple understandable fact into your soft tissue.

 

[fd24]

As I said earlier americans are liars

 

[VCheng]

As I said earlier americans are liars

Of course, Pakistanis are respected the world over for always telling the truth, right?

 

[SQ8]

Of course, Pakistanis are respected the world over for always telling the truth, right?

No, but being singled out for being liars isnt kosher either.
To add to agno's post 114.. there are tussles between the state dept operatives here and the intel hounds.
I was witness to the Peshawar US consul general babbling half drunk about how they messed it up in FATA.
Clearly.. the state dept isnt the one calling all the shots.

 

[VCheng]

No, but being singled out for being liars isnt kosher either.

That goes both ways, Sir.

Clearly.. the state dept isnt the one calling all the shots.

Of course it is not, there are multiple inputs, the State Dept. being only one of them.