INS Vikramditya, India's second aircraft carrier, out at sea again

[acid rain]

It seems diesel subs are nigh undetectable if they shut down and lie in wait,virtually nothing stopping them from ambushing a surface group by popping up when it passes over.

You see, this is where the doubts start - the exercises may have been structured in such a way that it wasn't allowed to use anti sub ops to be carried out to detect or attack enemy subs.

An expert opinion will come handy @Abingdonboy, @Dillinger, @gambit.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

We have the whole Indian ocean to police so SSN and SSBN are a very important arm for the submarine force. Above all the Diesel electric sub if it lays silent it can ambush but in active sonar detection it will show up like a light bulb. No need to worry about it.

Really USN can't detect them,and we will pop them up like lightbulb?Did u even read the article mate?

You see, this is where the doubts start - the exercises may have been structured in such a way that it wasn't allowed to use anti sub ops to be carried out to detect or attack enemy subs.

An expert opinion will come handy @Abingdonboy, @Dillinger, @gambit.

What every exercise from the 80s to current were rigged?
Then how was relatively old chinese song submarine able to pop up in between us kitty hawk carrier group undetected in 2006?In war thats would be dead carrier.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Really USN can't detect them,and we will pop them up like lightbulb?Did u even read the article mate?



What every exercise from the 80s to current were rigged?
Then how was relatively old chinese song submarine able to pop up in between us kitty hawk carrier group undetected in 2006?In war thats would be dead carrier.

Was it active detection or passive detection?

Final Patrols of the Lost Submarines

Well how do you know that those Song class subs wrent detected by the other subs?

Final Patrols of the Lost Submarines

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Was it active detection or passive detection?

Final Patrols of the Lost Submarines

Well how do you know that those Song class subs wrent detected by the other subs?

Final Patrols of the Lost Submarines

All detection.Plz read the article.Active is better method,but still not nearly enough.
If the song was detected,do you think they would have let it come near the carrier?It was shock when it surfaced.

 

[satishkumarcsc]

All detection.Plz read the article.Active is better method,but still not nearly enough.
If the song was detected,do you think they would have let it come near the carrier?It was shock when it surfaced.

You would want the Americans to fire a few shots at the Chinese sub? The submariners rarely know that they have been targetted. What you said was already done by the swedish ww2 sub during the exercises in Atlantic. Read about Paul Van Dyke and all the other exercises.

http://www.usnwc.edu/Publications/Naval-War-College-Press/Newport-Papers/Documents/36.aspx

http://www.usnwc.edu/getattachment/592b75b4-f365-4e2d-804f-340bfe88b822/AFJ_Sep08_ASW.aspx

after sep 2008 things have drastically changed. And you must remember ASW wasnt the forte of the USN it was something that RN specializes in.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Yeah i know IN specifically focuses on ASW.Still i am having second thoughts about 3 carrier force.Wouln't it be better to invest all that in subs?

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Yeah i know IN specifically focuses on ASW.Still i am having second thoughts about 3 carrier force.Wouln't it be better to invest all that in subs?

You think all 3 cbg will be at sea? the reason why we have 3 is when 2 are sailing one will be in refit and maintenance. And a CBG without Sub support is like an airforce without missiles.

 

[gambit]

WOW, time for a reality check then, India is going for nuclear subs and a few new CBG's and that article is scary. @gambit, @Penguin - are these two and other surface ships so vulnerable? or, its just a caliberated exercise. I cannot believe that a lone deisel sub is capable of so much damage everytime.

It seems diesel subs are nigh undetectable if they shut down and lie in wait,virtually nothing stopping them from ambushing a surface group by popping up when it passes over.Also calls into question whether we need SSNs at all.I mean we don't have worldwide commitments and SSNs cost huge deal more.

Any sub that lay still will be problematic for any surface vessel and even nuclear subs can run on batteries, not just diesel. But the reason why popular media analysts consistently say that nuclear subs are noisier than diesel is because the reactor is always 'on', so to speak, and since the noise level of nuclear subs are not published, the default position is that nuclear subs are noisier. But once a sub is moving, even if it is a diesel moving on battery power, noise level is dominated by surface friction and propeller (cavitation).

The problem for any sub is that once it fired a torpedo to attack, its position will be established, and very quickly if the surface ships are already conducting ASW while in hostile waters. So the best thing for any sub is to surprise the surface ships when ASW is not going. This is when the sub will be able to fire off more than one or two torpedoes.

You see, this is where the doubts start - the exercises may have been structured in such a way that it wasn't allowed to use anti sub ops to be carried out to detect or attack enemy subs.

An expert opinion will come handy @Abingdonboy, @Dillinger, @gambit.

That may be true. We need to know the ROE of the exercise. Denial of or no access to ASW capability is important for any surface fleet in training on how to navigate hostile waters.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Any sub that lay still will be problematic for any surface vessel and even nuclear subs can run on batteries, not just diesel. But the reason why popular media analysts consistently say that nuclear subs are noisier than diesel is because the reactor is always 'on', so to speak, and since the noise level of nuclear subs are not published, the default position is that nuclear subs are noisier. But once a sub is moving, even if it is a diesel moving on battery power, noise level is dominated by surface friction and propeller (cavitation).

The problem for any sub is that once it fired a torpedo to attack, its position will be established, and very quickly if the surface ships are already conducting ASW while in hostile waters. So the best thing for any sub is to surprise the surface ships when ASW is not going. This is when the sub will be able to fire off more than one or two torpedoes.


That may be true. We need to know the ROE of the exercise. Denial of or no access to ASW capability is important for any surface fleet in training on how to navigate hostile waters.

I thought main problem with nuke subs was they always had to cool the reactor with coolant pumps generating noise,and they ahd to dump hot water needed for cooling reactor which left a trail.Neither of which are problem with SSK.
The way i see it with AIP 40-45 day endurance,most modern conflicts would be over in 45 days...SSK has got a solid advantage here.

 

[Koovie]

Dolphins escorting INS Vikramaditya and pics from latest trials

 

[gambit]

I thought main problem with nuke subs was they always had to cool the reactor with coolant pumps generating noise,and they ahd to dump hot water needed for cooling reactor which left a trail.Neither of which are problem with SSK.
The way i see it with AIP 40-45 day endurance,most modern conflicts would be over in 45 days...SSK has got a solid advantage here.

That is part of how nuclear subs are perceived to be noisier than diesel sub running on battery. But the reality is that there is little legitimate comparison between the two. Nuclear subs are essentially deep water subs designed for long duration, not just away from home port but also on how long they can stay submerged. Diesel subs by their nature are short duration and shallow (littoral) water subs.

Just like radar detection, noise is unwanted signals, ambient (background) noise (signals) is a set of known signals with known characteristics, and just like radar detection, ambient signals can vary in characteristics from region to region. If you fly over North America, you will get an entirely different set than if you fly over Africa. Ambient signals are both wanted and unwanted. They are wanted because they give an established baseline for measurement and they are unwanted because they must be discarded in order to discriminate out anomalous (wanted) signals. Other unwanted signals are self generated such as simple walking (submarine detection) or radio communication (radar cross section detection).

The key in submarine warfare is to mask oneself into the known ambient noise of the local region. In high traffic and shallow regions like the Gulf of Mexico, South China Sea, Mediterranean, or the Persian Gulf, any sub, even a nuclear sub, can lie still and be masked by the high ambient noise levels produced by surface ship propellers, waves from wakes, colliding waves from wakes, fishing operations, and many more. The advantage that a diesel sub has over the nuclear version is simply smaller size, which allows it to operate in shallower water. The word 'operate' contains both lying still and moving. As depth decreases, propagation decreases and there will be a point where propagation paths are scant and propagation so poor that the only ambient noise available are from local undersea life and surface generating noise, such as from weather. So it is important for the diesel sub to find an ideal location on which to hide inside the highest ambient noise level possible without compromising its own ability to hunt other vessels, surface or subs. An incompetent skipper will get his boat killed regardless of what type of boat.

 

[Penguin]

WOW, time for a reality check then, India is going for nuclear subs and a few new CBG's and that article is scary. @gambit, @Penguin - are these two and other surface ships so vulnerable? or, its just a caliberated exercise. I cannot believe that a lone deisel sub is capable of so much damage everytime.

In the littoral, under the right conditions, conventional SSKs are very dangerous and quite deadly. Boats such as Walrus and Swordfish (Taiwan Hai Lung) are modelled on the US Albacore design, a unique research submarine that pioneered the American version of the teardrop hull form (sometimes referred to as an "Albacore hull") of modern submarines.

The advantage of the SSN is in its ability to transit fast over long distances. But it pays a price in terms of noise and underwater agility. In recent years, SSKs have begin receiving AIP, which gives them much longer endurance, negatinve some of the advantage of SSNs.

There is a reason why the USN borrowed a Swedish submarine for quite some time....

In 2004, the Swedish government received a request from the United States of America to lease HMS Gotland – Swedish-flagged, commanded and manned, for a duration of one year for use in anti-submarine warfare exercises. The Swedish government granted this request in October 2004, with both navies signing a memorandum of understanding on March 21, 2005.[5][6] The lease was extended for another 12 months in 2006.[7][8][9] In July 2007, HMS Gotland departed San Diego for Sweden.[10]
HMS Gotland managed to snap several pictures of the USS Ronald Reagan during a wargaming exercise in the Pacific Ocean, effectively "sinking" the aircraft carrier.[11] The exercise was conducted to evaluate the effectiveness of the US Fleet against diesel-electric submarines, which some have noted as severely lacking.[12][13]

Gotland-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MilSpec]

In the littoral, under the right conditions, conventional SSKs are very dangerous and quite deadly. Boats such as Walrus and Swordfish (Taiwan Hai Lung) are modelled on the US Albacore design, a unique research submarine that pioneered the American version of the teardrop hull form (sometimes referred to as an "Albacore hull") of modern submarines.

The advantage of the SSN is in its ability to transit fast over long distances. But it pays a price in terms of noise and underwater agility. In recent years, SSKs have begin receiving AIP, which gives them much longer endurance, negatinve some of the advantage of SSNs.

There is a reason why the USN borrowed a Swedish submarine for quite some time....


Gotland-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

^almost inspired from Down Periscope!!

 

[Penguin]

That is part of how nuclear subs are perceived to be noisier than diesel sub running on battery. But the reality is that there is little legitimate comparison between the two. Nuclear subs are essentially deep water subs designed for long duration, not just away from home port but also on how long they can stay submerged. Diesel subs by their nature are short duration and shallow (littoral) water subs.

You recall the pictures of NYC city lights taken by German U boats during WW2? Those were DIESEL boats, many of which a quarter of the size of e.g. Walrus class or Kilo class and some half that size. BOats like that were not designed for coastal work but also, even primarily for ocean work. All can snorkel (i.e. remain submerged, with only a masthead protruding above the water. Likewise check out USN sub patrols in the Pacific. The trouble is that a SOSUS network can pick up a snorkeling sub over 500mi away... but only a fool writes today's conventional subs off as 'short duration', 'low endurance' or 'shallow water'. They can't transit the arctic regions submerged, no, but they pretty much can go everywhere else and to a fine job. And they do not necessarily employ 'lie in wait' ambush techniques. The operational range of e.g. the RNLN submarines lies mainly in the Eastern Atlantic Ocean, the North Sea and the Norwegian Sea, but also in the Mediterranean. Their missions are directed at anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare, carrying out surveillance, special operations, and the laying of mines. Did I mention they are missile armed?

http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/specials/special_diesels_or_nukes.htm

 

[gambit]

You recall the pictures of NYC city lights taken by German U boats during WW2? Those were DIESEL boats, many of which a quarter of the size of e.g. Walrus class or Kilo class and some half that size. BOats like that were not designed for coastal work but also, even primarily for ocean work. All can snorkel (i.e. remain submerged, with only a masthead protruding above the water. Likewise check out USN sub patrols in the Pacific. The trouble is that a SOSUS network can pick up a snorkeling sub over 500mi away... but only a fool writes today's conventional subs off as 'short duration', 'low endurance' or 'shallow water'. They can't transit the arctic regions submerged, no, but they pretty much can go everywhere else and to a fine job. And they do not necessarily employ 'lie in wait' ambush techniques. The operational range of e.g. the RNLN submarines lies mainly in the Eastern Atlantic Ocean, the North Sea and the Norwegian Sea, but also in the Mediterranean. Their missions are directed at anti-surface and anti-submarine warfare, carrying out surveillance, special operations, and the laying of mines. Did I mention they are missile armed?

Dutch Submarines: Diesels Or Nukes: Officer who did both reflects on differences

Those WW II diesel 'subs' were not true submarines but really surface vessels capable of being submerged for short periods of time. So yes, technically speaking, any diesel sub can be out for any duration and for any distance. But for today, in any shooting war against US, any diesel sub running under snorkel in open ocean will die before the boat's skipper know where the torpedo came from.