"Innocent" Ishrat Jahan

[Stephen Cohen]

@Guynextdoor2

Ishrat died EXACTLY the way a terrorist should die

 

[MilSpec]

Hey AAPtard should we care how a terrorist is killed ?. end of the day innocent people are saved If ishrat was a innocent then no one is gonna support this encounter. As she is proven to be a terrorist i dont care how she is killed

Please don't label Gandhi Parrivar trolls as AAP.

 

[Guynextdoor2]

Please don't label Gandhi Parrivar trolls as AAP.

Bhakt tries to differentaite between 'Gandhi Parivar' and 'AAP'....how funny after everything he could do to damage both!

 

[MilSpec]

Bhakt tries to differentaite between 'Gandhi Parivar' and 'AAP'....how funny after everything he could do to damage both!

Sorry, no bhakt here, I have been a vocal supporter of arvind on the forum, criticized modi and advani, i call it the way I see it. If you can't deal with that, it's least of my concerns.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I personally have no issue with fake encounter, it might sound horrible, but that is how Bengal Naxals, Punjab Khalistan, Mumbai Underworld, all were brought under control.
As far as Ishrat Jehan being an outfit of terror organisation, how can that be if our dear politicians say she is Bihar ki beti?

this is the national family perhaps.
Ishrat- Beti
Afzal guru- Bhai
Maqbool Butt- baap
Bhatkal- Damaad


After Nitish, Lalu's son Tej Pratap Yadav calls Ishrat Jahan 'daughter of Bihar' | Zee News

I am hopeful that fortress of democracy and free speech will soon plead for the justice for the entire national family.

I would have given you a negative rating but for the enormous respect that I have for your record on PakDef over the years. Please consider this a token of my complete and utter contempt for such a despicable post. You should bow your head in shame.

 

[axisofevil]

I don't want to take sides but I do find that the other side has strong points too. The key point Verma makes is that it takes quite a bit of training to become a 'Fidayeen'- takes about 15 days to learn how to even shoot properly. So any mapping of her time spent in past doesn't indicate so much of time spent in training.


Ishrat Jehan: 'Brilliant Op' But 'Fake Encounter,' Says Investigator Satish Verma

IF SHE SUPPORTS TERRORISTS AGAINST MOTHER INDIA....THEN SHE IS A FKING TERRORISTS. NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS ABOUT IT.

I would have given you a negative rating but for the enormous respect that I have for your record on PakDef over the years. Please consider this a token of my complete and utter contempt for such a despicable post. You should bow your head in shame.

Plz wake up when reality comes bite you in your ***. How the f-k do you think many instances of terror and violence have been dealt with completely. Many times it required taking a firm hand and squashing the threat till it ceases to ever exist. Maybe you like to see our ppl dying everyday because some Fundamentalist gets thru or gets upset. The rich and powerful rarely get touched...

Sure, if 2000 innocent people get killed in 2002 riots, what difference does it make to Bhakti how a terrorist get killed.

You;re a Congress supporter. I remember your posts prior to Modi getting elected. Fuk off...

May be so. But the opposing narrative has gained currency and was exploited by Congress and others in direct contradiction of National Security.

All I am saying is that if it wasn't absolutely necessary for operational purposes, then don't kill them.

Plz Congress can't exploit anything even if it fell in its lap. Im not worried by Congress....thos fukkers are the reason why India is in a sorry state of affairs. You let them go, they continue to do things. What if they loose the team that is keeping an eye on them? Then what? It has happened to many times. Fuk a good terrorists is a dead terrorist. Case closed.

 

[MilSpec]

I would have given you a negative rating but for the enormous respect that I have for your record on PakDef over the years. Please consider this a token of my complete and utter contempt for such a despicable post. You should bow your head in shame.

Let me ask you a straight question, have extra judicial killings used by design by the state to tackle a tactical issue in the past? Were similar questions raised in those cases? If not, why?

I do realize what I am saying is unpalatable, despicable by legal/ethical standards, but are we going to set a precedent where every encounter that took place in mumbai will be re-opened, every terrorist encounter in J&K and North east, every Naxal encounter in WB re-opened and investigated? If yes sure, lets go ahead and do that and include Ishrat Jehan case as one of them, the implication here is trying to get Modi on a backfoot as it happened under his watch, but lets not forget what has happened throughout other states. Let the supreme court bring up all of these cases not just the one where the legal representation is of congress by proxy.

With all due respect and the highest regards to you, I will back the security apparatus until they are proven guilty of wrong doing in the court of law.
Saying all that my post was in bad taste and I will retract it. Sorry!

IF SHE SUPPORTS TERRORISTS AGAINST MOTHER INDIA....THEN SHE IS A FKING TERRORISTS. NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS ABOUT IT.





Plz wake up when reality comes bite you in your ***. How the f-k do you think many instances of terror and violence have been dealt with completely. Many times it required taking a firm hand and squashing the threat till it ceases to ever exist. Maybe you like to see our ppl dying everyday because some Fundamentalist gets thru or gets upset. The rich and powerful rarely get touched...




You;re a Congress supporter. I remember your posts prior to Modi getting elected. Fuk off...




Plz Congress can't exploit anything even if it fell in its lap. Im not worried by Congress....thos fukkers are the reason why India is in a sorry state of affairs. You let them go, they continue to do things. What if they loose the team that is keeping an eye on them? Then what? It has happened to many times. Fuk a good terrorists is a dead terrorist. Case closed.

Be civil, remember who you are talking to here, Joe is your grand fathers age, and the most respected gentelman on this forum, please edit your post and remove the offensive part.

 

[Spectre]

Let me ask you a straight question, have extra judicial killings used by design by the state to tackle a tactical issue in the past? Were similar questions raised in those cases? If not, why?

I do realize what I am saying is unpalatable, despicable by legal standards, but are we going to set a precedent where every encounter that took place in mumbai will be re-opened, every terrorist encounter in J&K and North east, every Naxal encounter in WB re-opened and investigated? If yes sure, lets go ahead and do that and include Ishrat Jehan case as one of them, the implication here is trying to get Modi on a backfoot as it happened under his watch, but lets not forget what has happened throughout other states. Let the supreme court bring up all of these cases not just the one where the legal representation is of congress by proxy.

With all due respect and the highest regards to you, I will back the security apparatus until they are proven guilty of wrong doing in the court of law.



Be civil, remember who you are talking to here, Joe is your grand fathers age, and the most respected gentelman on this forum, please edit your post and remove the offensive part.

Unpleasantness aside, there are ways and means to handle such "encounters". What happens in our "wild west" cannot happen in centres of civilisation, Mumbai being a very peculiar exception due to multitude of extraneous factors associated and game within games being played there by Indian Intelligence agencies in the era such things used to happen and a certain gentleman was charge d'affairs.

Suffice to say all the grandstanding on my part is not out of some bleeding heart syndrome for Ishrat Jahan but out of disgust for how the things have folded out in large part due to incompetency of actors involved and rank political opportunism.

Many of the posters here are too young (not you and Joe) to look beyond than the current events of the millennium. Old timers may recall the security dynamics of PVN era and before. The security situation was way more critical but dealt with minimum of fuss in the mainland. Those days people used to think beyond enforcement and dared to go reach for exploitation.

This "exploitation" aspect is missing in recent times and operations are geared for media headlines. Sad state of affairs really in my opinion.

P.S. Apologies for being deliberately dense.

Plz Congress can't exploit anything even if it fell in its lap. Im not worried by Congress....thos fukkers are the reason why India is in a sorry state of affairs. You let them go, they continue to do things. What if they loose the team that is keeping an eye on them? Then what? It has happened to many times. Fuk a good terrorists is a dead terrorist. Case closed.

Boyoh i know it's tough but try to be civil. As for congress today, they are rotting corpse of a party which bled for India and is largely responsible for keeping it intact all these years against many odds. It is easy to beat on a dead horse but takes gumption to take on the lion in it's den.

 

[MilSpec]

Unpleasantness aside, there are ways and means to handle such "encounters". What happens in our "wild west" cannot happen in centres of civilisation, Mumbai being a very peculiar exception due to multitude of extraneous factors associated and game within games being played there by Indian Intelligence agencies in the era such things used to happen and a certain gentleman was charge d'affairs.

Suffice to say all the grandstanding on my part is not out of some bleeding heart syndrome for Ishrat Jahan but out of disgust for how the things have folded out in large part due to incompetency of actors involved and rank political opportunism.

Many of the posters here are too young (not you and Joe) to look beyond than the current events of the millennium. Old timers may recall the security dynamics of PVN era and before. The security situation was way more critical but dealt with minimum of fuss in the mainland. Those days people used to think beyond enforcement and dared to go reach for exploitation.

This "exploitation" aspect is missing in recent times and operations are geared for media headlines. Sad state of affairs really in my opinion.

P.S. Apologies for being deliberately dense.

ok two militants, were killed by IA boys yesterday.... what if tomorrow a petition is filed for them saying they were just smugglers not terrorists, they were falsely targeted and the entire encounter was faked? what do you do then, what happens to morale of security forces, these chaps are laying their live day in day out for what? to be second guessed for everything, and harassed. What happened to the the IB officials who tracked this entire intel, what was the treatment dealt out to them?

Aren't we making the vanguard think ten times before he strikes that it might come back to haunt him, because he did his duty to protect the people. and where will we stop, should we question tomorrow, during a border flareup that Pakistani high commission has complained that Indian side fired first, lets now investigate which guard fired ?

I am fine with whichever direction is taken by the law makers they are much smarter than I can ever be, I am just a simpleton who doesn't understand much of the politics and associated legalities, when a big tree fall earth shudders without any implications., but pre-emptive action on a terrorists needs to be clamped down upon with all the might of courts. I might have bit more than i can chew, I will limit myself to aviation and equipment threads.

apologies to both you and @Joe Shearer

 

[Spectre]

ok two militants, were killed by IA boys yesterday.... what if tomorrow a petition is filed for them saying they were just smugglers not terrorists, they were falsely targeted and the entire encounter was faked? what do you do then, what happens to morale of security forces, these chaps are laying their live day in day out for what? to be second guessed for everything, and harassed. What happened to the the IB officials who tracked this entire intel, what was the treatment dealt out to them?

Aren't we making the vanguard think ten times before he strikes that it might come back to haunt him, because he did his duty to protect the people. and where will we stop, should we question tomorrow, during a border flareup that Pakistani high commission has complained that Indian side fired first, lets now investigate which guard fired ?

I am fine with whichever direction is taken by the law makers they are much smarter than I can ever be, I am just a simpleton who doesn't understand much of the politics and associated legalities, when a big tree fall earth shudders without any implications., but pre-emptive action on a terrorists needs to be clamped down upon with all the might of courts. I might have bit more than i can chew, I will limit myself to aviation and equipment threads.

apologies to both you and @Joe Shearer

Permit to have the last word. Army has different SOPs, RoE and code of conduct than the regular police and is hence not utilized in grey areas. Same applies to covert agencies. This different set of rules is precisely in place to prevent the second guessing and harassment.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Permit to have the last word. Army has different SOPs, RoE and code of conduct than the regular police and is hence not utilized in grey areas. Same applies to covert agencies. This different set of rules is precisely in place to prevent the second guessing and harassment.

Not just that but AFSPA provides a framework that allows the Indian Army (and other security forces) to operate without the fear that their actions can be second guessed by external parties and thus their abilties curtailed. AFSPA is clearly not needed in the rest of India however, I still beleive that the law enforcers require a legal frameowkr when it comes to dealing specifically with terrorists. The reason this entire case is controversial and the actors hounded out of their posts is because no such framework exists and this has given the opportunity for polticians to play their dirty little games on the matter. Had there been a clean cut framework this event would never have become the animal it has and I dare not think what kind of damage this event has done to the morale of the security agencies who were doing their job of seucring India and in this case did it very well.

To me, this has parrells with the state of affairs with armed police units here in the UK. Today, there exists such an extreme and restrictive set of rules around the use of deadly force by these officers that many officers are choosing to leave the units and go to (unarmed) traffic roles or other areas and where there is an enourmous amount of anixiety and stress within the active duty officers because the fear what could happen to them if they were to do their job (ie use their weapons).

There is clealry a balance to be made between legislating to protect the public and giving them a free hand but this case set a horrific precedent in my opinion and at a time when India can ill afford to not be firing (excuse the pun) on all cylinders where national security is concerned.

I am of two minds of this encounter (not the guilt of Ishrat and her companions- they were as guilty as sin), on one hand there is a law that needs to be followed but on the other, the current laws in place in mainland India are outdated and were never intended to deal with a conflict of this nature. Luckily there have been too few cases to warrent a widespread discussion on the matter but it should be had. I keep coming back to in my mind that the enemy is not bound by any such laws or rules, they are doing everything in their power to cause harm and will exploit these weaknesses if you allow them.

 

[Spectre]

Not just that but AFSPA provides a framework that allows the Indian Army (and other security forces) to operate without the fear that their actions can be second guessed by external parties and thus their abilties curtailed. AFSPA is clearly not needed in the rest of India however, I still beleive that the law enforcers require a legal frameowkr when it comes to dealing specifically with terrorists. The reason this entire case is controversial and the actors hounded out of their posts is because no such framework exists and this has given the opportunity for polticians to play their dirty little games on the matter. Had there been a clean cut framework this event would never have become the animal it has and I dare not think what kind of damage this event has done to the morale of the security agencies who were doing their job of seucring India and in this case did it very well.

To me, this has parrells with the state of affairs with armed police units here in the UK. Today, there exists such an extreme and restrictive set of rules around the use of deadly force by these officers that many officers are choosing to leave the units and go to (unarmed) traffic roles or other areas and where there is an enourmous amount of anixiety and stress within the active duty officers because the fear what could happen to them if they were to do their job (ie use their weapons).

There is clealry a balance to be made between legislating to protect the public and giving them a free hand but this case set a horrific precedent in my opinion and at a time when India can ill afford to not be firing (excuse the pun) on all cylinders where national security is concerned.

I am of two minds of this encounter (not the guilt of Ishrat and her companions- they were as guilty as sin), on one hand there is a law that needs to be followed but on the other, the current laws in place in mainland India are outdated and were never intended to deal with a conflict of this nature. Luckily there have been too few cases to warrent a widespread discussion on the matter but it should be had. I keep coming back to in my mind that the enemy is not bound by any such laws or rules, they are doing everything in their power to cause harm and will exploit these weaknesses if you allow them.

I couldn't agree more with the theme of your post. There are several details which give me a sense of discomfort but that is per my individual code of morality which not suited to the evolving terrorism scenario which we now face. In short I am forced to agree that the laws must be amended so that it seamless elimination of elimination of terrorists.

However I cannot stress more that there is grave potential for abuse of such a law hence necessary measures such as regular audits of the utilization and utility of such a law and appropriate chain of command is encorporated

 

[knight11]

Bhai Logo you have very big brains than me, but a simple question -- Do you know what is in the mind of the Security person who might have a wife and few kids waiting for him at her house, who have been duty to stop the car carrying 4 terrorist coming to kill some VIP. They will try to elliminate them with maximum force ASAP. And why only Israt Jahan Encounter, the IB report lead to elliminate 9 Terrorists in all, why not see that how many innocient civilian life were saved.
PS, durring the siege in Moscow, the Russian terrorist uses nerve gas, to make everyone sleeps including chechnean terrorist, does Russian KGB asked the security personal, why they shot the female suicide terrorist, strapped with explosive in their HEAD when they were asleep.

 

[Joe Shearer]

IF SHE SUPPORTS TERRORISTS AGAINST MOTHER INDIA....THEN SHE IS A FKING TERRORISTS. NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS ABOUT IT.





Plz wake up when reality comes bite you in your ***. How the f-k do you think many instances of terror and violence have been dealt with completely. Many times it required taking a firm hand and squashing the threat till it ceases to ever exist. Maybe you like to see our ppl dying everyday because some Fundamentalist gets thru or gets upset. The rich and powerful rarely get touched...




You;re a Congress supporter. I remember your posts prior to Modi getting elected. Fuk off...




Plz Congress can't exploit anything even if it fell in its lap. Im not worried by Congress....thos fukkers are the reason why India is in a sorry state of affairs. You let them go, they continue to do things. What if they loose the team that is keeping an eye on them? Then what? It has happened to many times. Fuk a good terrorists is a dead terrorist. Case closed.

Try to understand what you are saying. Yesterday it was responsible policemen shooting when they need not have shot, and killing terrorists during a firefight. Today, it is irresponsible policemen arresting and detaining people in unofficial police custody - nobody knows what happened to them - and then drugging and killing them in cold blood. Tomorrow, it might be - this is speculation, but I point you to the assaults by lawyers on a person supposed to be in police custody, which is one bare step removed - it could be self-appointed vigilantes, deciding that their political opponents are anti-nationals, therefore terrorists, and therefore they should kill them.

Do you seriously want to see this happen?

Let me ask you a straight question, have extra judicial killings used by design by the state to tackle a tactical issue in the past?

Yes.

The earliest I recall was the assassination of two innocent youngsters caught outside their house during a curfew in Calcutta in 1968. They were killed by the DC North, Bibhuti Bhushan Chakrabarty.

Your query is mistaken.

The state NEVER uses extra-judicial killing. It has NO mechanism to order these killings, or to organise these killings. There is no process followed.

It is ALWAYS individuals who bend the rules, due to desperation or due to incompetence, and end up trying to justify it as the most efficient way to put down terror. Usually as many as one-third of these encounter killings are fake. Nothing better than murder.

Were similar questions raised in those cases? If not, why?

Yes. In every case.

Sometimes these questions raised were not given sufficient publicity. But they have been raised, always.

I do realize what I am saying is unpalatable, despicable by legal/ethical standards, but are we going to set a precedent where every encounter that took place in mumbai will be re-opened, every terrorist encounter in J&K and North east, every Naxal encounter in WB re-opened and investigated?

Are you aware of the law of the statute of limitations as it applies to this matter, a matter of murder? Please look it up, and you will get the precise answer that you are seeking.

If yes sure, lets go ahead and do that and include Ishrat Jehan case as one of them, the implication here is trying to get Modi on a backfoot as it happened under his watch, but lets not forget what has happened throughout other states. Let the supreme court bring up all of these cases not just the one where the legal representation is of congress by proxy.

It is not about Modi, it is about Vanzara and his homicidal bunch of uniformed assassins, and it is about Amit Shah, the Home Minister who gave Vanzara his freedom.

If Modi is implicated, it would be to the extent that he knew about Amit Shah's doings and Shah's complicity with Vanzara in these conspiracies to murder.

With all due respect and the highest regards to you, I will back the security apparatus until they are proven guilty of wrong doing in the court of law.

And what precisely is the difference between my position and what is written above?

Saying all that my post was in bad taste and I will retract it. Sorry!

I believe that you owed this to yourself and to your position of eminence within the forum.

Be civil, remember who you are talking to here, Joe is your grand fathers age, and the most respected gentelman on this forum, please edit your post and remove the offensive part.

I really cannot be bothered with scrubby little juvenile delinquents who have no idea about the issues but get mouthy. Please, don't waste time on this excrescence.

 

[Armstrong]

@Joe Shearer Bhai what are you doing here on a fine Saturday evening ?

Take Bhabi out for dinner or better yet cook some for Bhabi and serve it with love while you sing 'O meri zohra jabeen tujhee malooon nahin tou abhi tuk hai haseeen aur mein jawaaan...' !