Indonesia Defence Forum

[Chestnut]

Yeah right, we should stopped to established new KOSTRAD division and other frigates and corvettes we had should be scrapped, we should cancelled our NASSAM order, we should destroying PINDAD armored division manufacturing capability, we should looking solution like Philippine and their infantry minded attitude. Afterall our enemies right now and in the future is cave man wielding hatched and bows. What a great mind you had i am get a new revelation by each passing days.

The reason US can get a hold in Afghanistan in first place is because their shiny toys and network system along with all of their logistick units able to ensure there is no contender able to challenge their rules over the OCEAN and skies, what a great mind @Chestnut had to said those toys doesnt help US to suppress the enemies, well Tora Bora battle is fought with only rifles at hand maybe

Considering our most pressing concern right now is KKB's and a potential Marawi situation, there's no need to focus on getting more MBT's (We're not getting more, we're sticking with lighter tanks) or destroyers (we're a littoral country, we're better off getting more frigates and corvettes like the US LCS than a full fledged destroyer). A Arleigh Burke can't police a street corner, a Leopard 2 can't break down someone's door at 2AM to search for weapon caches; you need bodies for that.

Like it or not the reality of our security problems lies in better infantry gear, better infantry training, and long range surveillance than heavy hitting assets. The US didn't send in heavy assets when they first invaded Afghanistan, they sent in small scale SOF units supported by air support, which is what Super Tucanos and PGM equipped strike fighters are. They didn't need destroyers to fight a landlocked country nor stealth fighters to maintain air superiority against a country with no air force; stop talking out of your *** and putting words in my mouth.

And yes, as someone who works in the industry, I fully support stopping the government monopolization of the defense industry. Pindad quality is utter garbage because they don't have to compete with anybody else when they're the only people who make armored vehicles here and the military is obliged to purchase from them under KKIP. PAL and PTDI are forced to compete with local and international companies and thus are forced to constantly innovate, hence why they get foreign orders. Competition is good for business.

I don't get why it's so hard for Indonesian defense enthusiasts to just swallow the pride and admit we don't need to be like the US or Russia or China. We all have different security priorities.

 

[Nike]

lol, it will be good just to abolish TNI altogether if we looking what are your logic had, afterall Police and brimob is sufficient to handle such INTERNAL threat and doing COIN operation. Indonesia doesnt need to have aspiration to become big country backed by powerfull military to handle EXTERNAL threat

@Chestnut

 

[Ruhnama]

Its not good if you compare only by price per unit,compare it on many aspect like capabilities, Operational cost, Maintenance cost , airframe hours.

What i don't like from Russian made is their Maintenance cost is high rather than western made one. Think thats why most of our procurement for now and later going for western made.

In that list US made aircraft cheaper than Russian one
F 15 cheaper than Su 35 in that list.

So... ayo f15 wkwkkw

 

[Raduga]

if somehow penerbal get modernized
il-28 = P-8 Poseidon ?
Gannet = CN-235 mpa with Sonobuoy launcher and torp ?

 

[Kansel]

Good ol days

http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/2019/10/penerbal-tahun-1960-lengkap-modern-dan.html?m=1

Penerbal Tahun 1960-an : Lengkap, Modern dan Gahar

27 Oktober 2019



Pesawat Fairey Gannet dengan livery TNI AL (image : scn.ru)

Mengenang kejayaan TNI Angkatan Laut adalah membuka kembali sejarah tahun 1960an dimana saat itu Armada Kombatan TNI AL dan Dinas Penerbangan TNI AL (Dispenerbal - nama pada waktu itu) berada pada puncak kejayaannya dan sangat disegani di Asia.

Pada era tahun 1960an Penerbangan Angkatan Laut diperkuat oleh tujuh Skuadron Udara
dimana sampai saat ini jumlah skuadron dan tipe pesawat yang dipunyai TNI AL belum dapat menyamai atau bahkan melampauinya.

Penerbangan Angkatan Laut bertugas untuk mendukung operasi Angkatan Laut, baik untuk operasi tempur, operasi SAR maupun operasi bantuan kemanusiaan. Penerbangan TNI AL mempunyai enam fungsi yaitu :

1. Peperangan anti kapal selam
2. Peperangan anti kapal permukaan
3. Pengamanan laut terbatas
4. Intai maritim
5. Pendaratan pasukan darat lintas helikopter
6. Dukungan logistik cepat

Berikut ini adalah Skuadron Udara yang dimiliki oleh Angkatan Laut pada tahun 1960-an dimana kekuatan Penerbangan Angkatan Laut cukup lengkap, modern dan gahar.


Skuadron Udara 100/Anti Kapal Selam


Pesawat anti kapal selam Gannet AS4 (photo : TNI AL)

Pada awal tahun 1960 rombongan pertama pesawat Fairey Gannet tiba di tanah air. Dari 18 Gannet yang dimiliki TNI AL, sebanyak 16 unit merupakan tipe AS4 atau versi antikapal selam (ASW) sedangkan dua unit yaitu model T5 merupakan pesawat versi latih.

Untuk tipe AS4 yang perannya sebagai pemburu kapal selam, pesawat dilengkapi dengan torpedo yang tersimpan dalam bomb bay di perut pesawat yang terlihat gendut.

Skuadron Udara 200/Angkut VIP (dan Latih)


Pesawat Volaircraft Grand Commander 500 (photo : TNI AL)

Skuadron 200 pada mulanya diperuntukkan sebagai Skuadron Angkut VIP namun dalam perjalanan kemudian berubah menjadi Skuadron Latih.

Untuk fungsi pesawat angkut VIP, skuadron ini diperkuat dengan pesawat udara yang dibeli dari Amerika Serikat yaitu sebuah pesawat angkut VIP Volaircraft (Rockwell) Grand Commander 500.



Pesawat latih Darter Commander (photo : TNI AL)

Untuk fungsi latih, skuadron ini diperkuat dengan empat buah pesawat latih dasar buatan Amerika Serikat jenis Darter Commander 100 yang juga dibuat oleh Volaircraft/Aero Commander.

Skuadron Udara 300/Angkut Taktis


Pesawat amfibi UF-2 Albatross (photo : david taylor)

Bersamaan dengan pembelian pesawat dari Amerika Serikat, yaitu Grand Commander, Darter Commander, serta Dakota, dilakukan juga pembelian atas dua buah pesawat amfibi jenis Grumman Albatross HU-16/UF-2.

Mengingat fungsinya yang berbeda dan spesifik maka untuk pesawat amfibi Albatross ini dibuatkan skuadron tersendiri yaitu Skuadron Udara 300.

Skuadron Udara 400/Pendaratan Vertikal



Helikopter Mil Mi-4 ALRI (photo : anggerabiyyu)

Gelombang pembelian helikopter dari Uni Sovyet, untuk Angkatan Laut juga turut kebagian berupa 14 buah helikopter jenis Mil Mi-4 Hound. Dari sejumlah tersebut sebanyak sembilan buah merupakan tipe helikopter anti kapal selam, sedangkan sisanya lima buah helikopter angkut sedang dan helikopter VIP.



Helikopter Allouette II ALRI (photo : TNI AL)

Pembelian helikopter juga dilakukan terhadap produk Prancis berupa tiga buah helikopter angkut serba guna Aerospatiale Allouette II, heli ini juga dapat dipergunakan untuk fungsi latih.

Skuadron Udara 500/Pembom Torpedo


Pesawat pembom torpedo Il-28 (photo : skuad600)

Angkatan Laut juga menerima 12 buah pesawat udara Ilyushin Il-28, pesawat dengan kode NATO sebagai Beagle ini merupakan medium bomber, dan Angkatan Laut memfungsikannya sebagai pembom torpedo.

Dari jatah 12 buah pesawat Il-28 untuk Angkatan Laut, 10 unit merupakan jenis Il-28T yang murni dirancang sebagai pesawat pembom torpedo, sedangkan sisanya 2 unit berupa jenis Il-28U yang tidak dipersenjatai dan berfungsi sebagai pesawat latih.

Skuadron Udara 600/Transport



Pesawat C-47 Dakota (photo : intisari)

Skuadron ini dibentuk untuk memenuhi kebutuhan Angkatan Laut atas fungsi pesawat untuk keperluan logistik, penerjunan dan transportasi.

Untuk skuadron ini, Angkatan Laut mengumpulkan pesawat Douglas C-47 Dakota dari beberapa negara, dua buah dari Belanda, tiga buah dari Amerika, serta dua buah dari Australia, total 7 pesawat jenis C-47 berhasil dimiliki.

Skuadron 900/ Perawatan dan Pemeliharaan

Saat ini skuadron ini berganti nama menjadi Fasharkan Pesud kepanjangan dari Fasilitas Pemeliharaan dan Perbaikan Pesawat Udara, dengan tugas pokok melaksanakan pemeliharaan terhadap berbagai pesawat udara yang dimiliki Penerbangan TNI-AL, baik pesawat bersayap tetap maupun berbaling-baling.

Sekarang ini Puspenerbal mengoperasikan Skuadron 200 Latih Terbang, Skuadron 400 Anti Kapal Selam, Skuadron 600 Angkut Taktis, Skuadron 800 Patroli Maritim dan Fasharkan Pesud. Ada penambahan skuadron berupa Skuadron Patroli Maritim, namun demikian ada tiga skuadron yang berkurang yaitu Skuadron Angkut Taktis, Skuadron Pendaratan Vertikal dan Skuadron Pembom Torpedo.





Pada periode tahun 60-an tersebut terlihat bahwa untuk melawan kapal selam, Angkatan Laut dapat menggunakan 3 jenis alutsista yang berupa pesawat Gannet AS4, helikopter Mi-14 Hound dan pembom torpedo Il-28 Beagle, ketiganya berasal dari skuadron yang berbeda. Satu dekade ke depan belum tentu skuadron-skuadron tersebut pulih kembali.

 

[Nike]

if somehow penerbal get modernized
il-28 = P-8 Poseidon ?
Gannet = CN-235 mpa with Sonobuoy launcher and torp ?

Why not looking for P3 orion or maybe ATR 72 MPA/ASW version, as Japan and US is progressively replacing their orion with newly build aircraft. P8 Poseidon is all to be good though

 

[Kansel]

Well idk if its a good decision or no,atleast dont offer us second hand lah

https://twitter.com/x/status/1188227728337555456

Why not looking for P3 orion or maybe ATR 72 MPA/ASW version, as Japan and US is progressively replacing their orion with newly build aircraft. P8 Poseidon is all to be good though

I prefer P3 or ATR 72 as tactical mpa while P8/P1 as strategic mpa

 

[Chestnut]

lol, it will be good just to abolish TNI altogether if we looking what are your logic had, afterall Police and brimob is sufficient to handle such INTERNAL threat and doing COIN operation. Indonesia doesnt need to have aspiration to become big country backed by powerfull military to handle EXTERNAL threat

@Chestnut

Okay, I'm not going to bother taking you seriously if you're to use ad hominems. So far you have given no rebuttal to my argument that the TNI has pressing insurgency concerns and border intrusions that are best solved by better infantry training, MP aircraft, and littoral combat ships over heavy assets other than constantly referring to "future aspirations".

Keep in mind that this opinion is shared by a lot of the soldiers I work with. I have lost count of how many soldiers said they would rather get better personal gear than having to be responsible for another $5 million piece of equipment.

I'm just going to close this pissing contest by saying that your type of grandiose, blind patriotism is what got us to this logistical crisis and budget waste in the first place. A parade military is only great for parades, not actual war.

Well idk if its a good decision or no,atleast dont offer us second hand lah

https://twitter.com/x/status/1188227728337555456

I prefer P3 or ATR 72 as tactical mpa while P8/P1 as strategic mpa

I think we should go for it. the AAVP's kinda fill their own niche in the Marine Corps. Having the BMP-3 platform as a common IFV and AAVP's as a common APC for the marines isn't that much of a logistical crisis. If anything though I'd start with actually adding weapons to the KAAVP's we already have.

For the most part, both vehicles are modular platforms. You can have the BMP-3's as IFV's, ATGM carriers, and SHORAD's while having the AAVP's as troop carriers, mortar carriers, command, engineering, and logistics.

 

[mandala]

KF-X vs Su-35.

 

[NEKONEKO]

Considering our most pressing concern right now is KKB's and a potential Marawi situation, there's no need to focus on getting more MBT's (We're not getting more, we're sticking with lighter tanks) or destroyers (we're a littoral country, we're better off getting more frigates and corvettes like the US LCS than a full fledged destroyer). A Arleigh Burke can't police a street corner, a Leopard 2 can't break down someone's door at 2AM to search for weapon caches; you need bodies for that.

Like it or not the reality of our security problems lies in better infantry gear, better infantry training, and long range surveillance than heavy hitting assets. The US didn't send in heavy assets when they first invaded Afghanistan, they sent in small scale SOF units supported by air support, which is what Super Tucanos and PGM equipped strike fighters are. They didn't need destroyers to fight a landlocked country nor stealth fighters to maintain air superiority against a country with no air force; stop talking out of your *** and putting words in my mouth.

And yes, as someone who works in the industry, I fully support stopping the government monopolization of the defense industry. Pindad quality is utter garbage because they don't have to compete with anybody else when they're the only people who make armored vehicles here and the military is obliged to purchase from them under KKIP. PAL and PTDI are forced to compete with local and international companies and thus are forced to constantly innovate, hence why they get foreign orders. Competition is good for business.

I don't get why it's so hard for Indonesian defense enthusiasts to just swallow the pride and admit we don't need to be like the US or Russia or China. We all have different security priorities.

There is no need for more MBT but we need MMWT and other light armoured vehicle.

Because Indonesia is littoral country and archipelagic state compromised of thousands islands we should have many small combat vessels for hit and run.
This is true but even if Indonesia have many islands we also have large sea area too, the inner sea 'area laut dalam' such as java sea and banda sea alone is still a large area (bahkan lebih gede dari wilayah laut beberapa negara eropa yang angkatan lautnya punya asset yang lebih superior), we also exposed directly to open ocean such as western of sumatra - southern coast of java all the way to the nusa tenggara (indian ocean) and pacific ocean in our northern part. Having frigates is a must, but if there is budget problem at least we should have several light frigate such as PKR and many corvettes (buat yang bilang kita cuman butuh buanyak KCR .... tuman banget dah). I agree with you, destroyer no, frigate yes, corvette must. (All frigate would be good but its not that easy ferguso! with our budget).

For coin ops our current super tucano is enough no need to order again or even get new kind of plane such as frogfoot or platypus better to get multirole jet fighter. I prefer CN 235 gunship (and still waiting for it) to provide air support for ground units even though it have small bang, hi-lo combi with PGM from fighter and the low would be CN 235, attack helos and tucano cincai cincai lah tergantung munisi yang mau dipakai. Canon or machine gun from rotary / fixed wing gunship with flir capabilities can deliver accurate attack and more importantly its cheap compared to PGM.
If talking about grandiose shite here that would be someone who want a jet bomber, mending beli aewc / sigint&elint / tanker tandem ma fighter bersenjata standoff weapons.
Sante aja kali, cuman diskusi gitu doang, lagian ga ada cebong2an dan kampret2an dimari.

:v

 

[Kansel]

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For coin ops our current super tucano is enough no need to order again or even get new kind of plane such as frogfoot or platypus better to get multirole jet fighter. I prefer CN 235 gunship (and still waiting for it) to provide air support for ground units even though it have small bang, hi-lo combi with PGM from fighter and the low would be CN 235, attack helos and tucano cincai cincai lah tergantung munisi yang mau dipakai. Canon or machine gun from rotary / fixed wing gunship with flir capabilities can deliver accurate attack and more importantly its cheap compared to PGM.
If talking about grandiose shite here that would be someone who want a jet bomber, mending beli aewc / sigint&elint / tanker tandem ma fighter bersenjata standoff weapons.

Well if only we could costumize bigger planes like C295 maybe big enough to accomodate 105 mm&30mm together for greater CAS capabilities.

Who's asking for bomber tho? I just notice a discussion to revive bombers squadron but to fill it with multirole plane like P8 not dedicated bomber plane.

There is no need for more MBT but we need MMWT and other

If only there's a plan to increase the caliber into 120 mm like what GDELS did with their ascod mmbt

 

[Kansel]

Well US just ordered Super Tucano with technical requirements

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[NEKONEKO]

If only there's a plan to increase the caliber into 120 mm like what GDELS did with their ascod mmbt

105 mm is enough.

*If only there's a plan to buy ATGM for the 105 mm gun such as Falarick 105.

 

[trishna_amṛta]

I don't get why it's so hard for Indonesian defense enthusiasts to just swallow the pride and admit we don't need to be like the US or Russia or China. We all have different security priorities.

Typically its due to the lack of technical knowledge and operating experience. And lately we can add the "alay" Indonesian medias into the equation of which I doubt whether or not those journalist even graduate Indonesia high school

 

[Kansel]

105 mm is enough.

*If only there's a plan to buy ATGM for the 105 mm gun such as Falarick 105.

Much more better for our pandur ifv variant to held ATGM (Israeli made ATGM in this case), for fsv and medium tank its better to use sniper&ambush tactic. But yeah purchasing falarick is good tho