Indonesia Defence Forum

[Indos]

There is no valid evidence in history that ottoman help us with janisarries weapon or some relation with sultan in sumatra, or java..i have heard some opinion that ottoman cooperate with our sultanatte but it still not have valid evidence.. maybe in old time our sultan hear about how great is ottoman than they try to using it as a bargain to their people,ally even enemy.

I stress more on buying their weapons (rifle). Not necessary give weapon for free.

 

[Ruhnama]

hhhmmm how about replacing Turkey on F-35 program, buy 120 F-35 and get the right to produce spares and component and future F-35 development for all the F-35 That will be produce on 40 years timeframe (more than 5000 unit)

But turks out from program but still producibg part till 2021

 

[Cromwell]

The basic questions people need understand on our aviation industry;
How come Singapore & Malaysian made more profit than us ?
If they have been so succesfull, why didn't we focus on MRO business and spare part manufacturing instead of aircraft as a whole ?
Of all those we claim as " local made " how much are the local contents ?
How many aircraft we produce monthly ? Or even just make it annually ?
Concerning N250; we can't deny in its class this was the best however did the market seek the best or the cheapest ? N250 performed better than ATR-72 yet we know the story. The conclusion leads to, Do we run PT.DI as state agency or business oriented entreprise which must make profit and understand the market ?

There consider everything in field with what idealistically we should've pursued, in the end this is why i always think to myself " what a load of daydreamers here full of students like naivety and fairytales optimism ? "

 

[Gundala]

How come Singapore & Malaysian made more profit than us ?
If they have been so succesfull, why didn't we focus on MRO business and spare part manufacturing instead of aircraft as a whole ?

PT.DI/Nurtanio was made under the goal of demand creator to let the industry grow underneath them. I believe Pak Habibie said that, he said there are 2 ways of building aerospace industry creating demand (making an airplane) or making that MRO/Spare parts business to sustain the goal of being a major player regionally and globally thus making advancement in technology while doint it. Thats why he created N250 as the first in its class that have fly by the wire technology and advance digital instrument back then. But economic crisis hit them hard, what happened next we already know.....

After the resurection of Nurtanio to PT.DI its unclear what role/path they going to take, which lead to...

The conclusion leads to, Do we run PT.DI as state agency or business oriented entreprise which must make profit and understand the market ?

This is a good question. If we are going to take Pak Habibie path then the strategy is clear. One of them is to create a good product to SELL then slowly breed local industry below. Now they have bright aerospace engineers and Im personally proud of PT.DI and wish they could grow to become major player. But in order for us to follow Pak Habibie plan then first all stakeholder of PT.DI have to do major overhaul. Hire "Bule" who has knowledge and network to global aviation Industry (Pak Habibie has it) if you have to. We want to be major player? Having latest technology? then we need to have a good platform (company) to do it. For now I regretly see them as state agency...

So how is the current condition of our beloved "platform"?
https://money.kompas.com/read/2019/...-tetap-rugi-meski-sudah-disuntik-pmn?page=all

I prefer we "fix" this first then we can talk about KFX to make sure all those knowledge we have from KFX wont go into the drain.

 

[Nike]

M1939 Marines still exist, but not known if the ammunition still there

 

[Nike]

 

[HellFireIndo]

I don't understand, countries who could make their own stuffs, apparently they can do it just out of nowhere? where the hell we are supposed to start our effort when in the end everyone could only conclude that buy, buy, buy is the only possibility.

 

[Chestnut]

We start our efforts by retracing the step of countries that have done so successfully. Not by skipping every step beforehand.

 

[Indos]

I don't understand, countries who could make own stuffs, apparently they can do it just out of nowhere? where the hell we are supposed to start our effort when in the end everyone could only conclude that buy, buy, buy is the only possibility.

Some people have low optimism about their own people capability. And it is what I say as part of some of our society mentality. If we listen to them, we are not going to be an advance nation. South Korea also has such people in their early development period, but the ones who have big dream keep pursuing their dream. And we can see SK is very advance now.

If you guys check on Indonesia Aerospace Forum, there are two Korean having a debate whether their country aerospace company should make civilian airplane or not.

This is the interesting part that I got from the conversation. It is said that some Korean had doubt that their country can pursue automotive industry and challenge the established players in their early period of their industry development.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the whole statement :

from "SgtGunho" argument to another Korean.

"Again, this is strawman. I did not specifically say that Korea should build a turboprop aircraft only nor I have claimed that Korean airlines are buying turboprop aircrafts en masse. I am more than happy for Korea to build either turboprop or turbofans aircrarft for those profitable domestic & international air routes. However, it is the fact that KAI is still interested in turboprop aircrafts as their recent note indicates that Korean OEM Mid-size Civilian A/C is a turboprop aircraft. It seems like KAI may disagree with you assessment. Either ways, the domestic & international air routes from Korea will continue to present an opportunity for Korean aviation & aerospace industry. I again politely suggest you to repuate this point.

"So far what you have offered seems like a very similar argument that Korean had argued why they shouldn't build a car industry many years ago when Korea actually had no market, no money, no enigneers and the automotive industry was dominated by Chrysler and others."

 

[Kansel]

So , the 48 rafale plan is not a bullsh*t afterall , let me guess the thing other than that , euroSAM and possible scorpene procurement ?

EMADS, aster, exocet coastal defense(?)


Also please expect there will be second hand ship procured by mr Prabowo as rumored before. Bremen class is one of them. The needs to reach 100% MEF that's why Prabowo planned to buy second hand ship and fighter since buying new will take 3-5 years to deliver

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[nufix]

We start our efforts by retracing the step of countries that have done so successfully. Not by skipping every step beforehand.

This!! What differs PTDI than other aircraft manufacturers is that they only care about outward appearances, which is the „production“ of aircraft. But things like worksharing with different subcons to create a complete supply chain or diversification of business to create a service ecosistem for aftersales were left unattended.

 

[Kansel]

South China Sea tension is rising so the idea to buy second hand weaponry is logical IMO, while procurements like viper, iver, osprey etc etc is for medium-long term needs

 

[Indos]

This!! What differs PTDI than other aircraft manufacturers is that they only care about outward appearances, which is the „production“ of aircraft. But things like worksharing with different subcons to create a complete supply chain or diversification of business to create a service ecosistem for aftersales were left unattended.

The company was under a corrupt guy for more than 10 years and Today he is in custody, the replacement is the one who can make PT PELNI profitable after many years experience loss. He made a transformation of PELNI from being a passenger vessel (which is challenged by LCC) into tapping a cargo business. PTDI has scored profit last year. I am optimist that a new guy know what should be done to create a profitable company.

 

[Cromwell]

I don't understand, countries who could make their own stuffs, apparently they can do it just out of nowhere? where the hell we are supposed to start our effort when in the end everyone could only conclude that buy, buy, buy is the only possibility.

Start by being " Realist " not " Optimist "; Optimist is for those who believe in fairy tales, the children alike.
1st Reconstruct the management system within our state owned entreprises
2nd Reorient everything from being state agency to business oriented entreprise { if MRO business & spare parts manufacturing makes more profit we can start from there instead of whole aircraft; ensure continuity of orders both domestic and foreign needs; know your market ( we live in era where Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, Leonardo, Bombardier, etc already have their realm, understand which products we do the best and focus on that )}.
3rd Being transparent and stop lying to public { PKR is hardly to be called " local made " we are just subcontractor which participations below 5% even lower on DSME 1400 ( out of 1.2 Billions US$ the share of works were just 9 Millions US$ )}

And i repeat importantly, kill that child like " optimism ", the world doesn't need that. Start being " realist " and understand where to fix and create the path to truly self owned reliance.

 

[Fl0gger]

after all i think we all living in a dream dgn mimpi kita bisa memiliki cita cita dan berusaha meraih cita cita kita dgn berusaha dan berdoa tanpa mimpi hidup akan terasa hampa dan membosankan hidup hanya sekali warnai hidup mu dgn mimpi agar engkau mampu menghadapi reality kehidupan mu utk meraih impian mu persatuan dan kemerdekan bangsa ini pun berawal dr mimpi bagaimana gajah mada menaklukan hampir seluruh nusantara dan soekarno memproklamirkan kemerdekaan bangsa adalah salah satu perwujudan impian besar bangsa so nothing wrong about dreaming semua terkembali kepada diri kita mau ga meraih impian ...we all do and discus ing in this forum did to regard