Indonesia Defence Forum

[nufix]

The company was under a corrupt guy for more than 10 years and Today he is in custody, the replacement is the one who can make PT PELNI profitable after many years experience loss. He made a transformation of PELNI from being a passenger vessel (which is challenged by LCC) into tapping a cargo business. PTDI has scored profit last year. I am optimist that a new guy know what should be done to create a profitable company.

10 years? Are you sure? According to many senior and retired employees, PTDI has been corrupt since the legacy of Nurtanio was erased by you know who. PTDI wanted to fast track things so that it can become a legacy for the guy but it forgot to set up the necessary environment for a working aircraft manufacturing company. It became political statement for him and his sons. Do you know that when N250 was rolled out, all the bules working at PTDI were given day offs so that only local faces appeared on TV? That's how political PTDI was.

Anyway, if profit is the sole goal of PTDI, PTDI should just focus on taking workshare from Airbus and Boeing. That is where the money is. RnD, manufacturing, and distributing homegrown aircraft? Those are too risky for PTDI who up until now cannot even have a clear production capacity thanks to the unpreparedness of its supply chain.

Lets be a realist here. PTDI is poised to be an aircraft manufacturing company. Unless it starts to act like one, it doesnt matter who is leading the company.

 

[HellFireIndo]

Start by being " Realist " not " Optimist "; Optimist is for those who believe in fairy tales, the children alike.
1st Reconstruct the management system within our state owned entreprises
2nd Reorient everything from being state agency to business oriented entreprise { if MRO business & spare parts manufacturing makes more profit we can start from there instead of whole aircraft; ensure continuity of orders both domestic and foreign needs; know your market ( we live in era where Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, Leonardo, Bombardier, etc already have their realm, understand which products we do the best and focus on that )}.
3rd Being transparent and stop lying to public { PKR is hardly to be called " local made " we are just subcontractor which participations below 5% even lower on DSME 1400 ( out of 1.2 Billions US$ the share of works were just 9 Millions US$ )}

And i repeat importantly, kill that child like " optimism ", the world doesn't need that. Start being " realist " and understand where to fix and create the path to truly self owned reliance.

People can't be realist and optimist at the same time?

there's problems? of course there are. Should people take care of it? of course. There's some steps that need to be done? you've mentioned it. But does that means nothing can be achieved anyway? i highly doubt it.

If the Japanese was to be a "realist" in the mid 1800s, that they as people say "shouldn't skip steps", and then just "realize" how backward they were compared to western powers knocking at their door, they wouldn't achieve anything they've done so far. Yes they have problems of backward society and institution, they were "realist" in a way they acknowledge it and started reforming. But they also an "optimist", that they just go along with it, modernizing Japan in 50 years of what took the Europeans centuries, and they made it, then they do it again post-WW2, so why can't we be like that? i suppose it's the mentality argument all over again, as Indos mentioned that even Koreans still doubted their capabilities, even when they actually can.

Why can't optimism goes in hand with realism vice versa? if we strive for the better and go for it, eventually we'll make it.

 

[Cromwell]

People can't be realist and optimist at the same time?

there's problems? of course there are. Should people take care of it? of course. There's some steps that need to be done? you've mentioned it. But does that means nothing can be achieved anyway? i highly doubt it.

If the Japanese was to be a "realist" in the mid 1800s, that they as people say "shouldn't skip steps", and then just "realize" how backward they were compared to western powers knocking at their door, they wouldn't achieve anything they've done so far. Yes they have problems of backward society and institution, they were "realist" in a way they acknowledge it and started reforming. But they also an "optimist", that they just go along with it, modernizing Japan in 50 years of what took the Europeans centuries, and they made it, then they do it again post-WW2, so why can't we be like that? i suppose it's the mentality argument all over again, as Indos mentioned that even Koreans still doubted their capabilities, even when they actually can.

Why can't optimism goes in hand with realism vice versa? if we strive for the better and go for it, eventually we'll make it.

If only people knew deep inside our state owned entreprises then you would've understood why i killed off the optimism and rose the realism. How corrupt everything are which i believed beyond repair, but then i suppose i already talked too much.

 

[Raduga]

that's why i wanted to see an experiment of turning our SOE into private company , and see how long they can survive and thrive in such environment (that would technically also reveal how clusterf*ck their current management).

our SOE loves to overbiasing their lie of achievement to media, that's why some members here also said our SOE is mere political tool to boost any governmental regime on their periode.

 

[Nike]

I don't understand, countries who could make their own stuffs, apparently they can do it just out of nowhere? where the hell we are supposed to start our effort when in the end everyone could only conclude that buy, buy, buy is the only possibility.

Lol, are you an oaf? I had clearly giving you an example of how South Korean and Turkey aircraft industry can succeed and thrived where they starting at when even they don't have basic aircraft industry when they starting the business much later compared to when Nurtanio flying his aircraft. They got it with license producing the aircraft deemed suitable enough for their own use and with many benefit to do so, they got chance to do license producing the engines, Airframe, spareparts and so on with involved other subsystem maker and creating the ecosystem. And they not stingy with their order to begin with.

There is many thing in Indonesia where even the basic path is to be skipped because many deemed such path is lacking the "face and pride" though this the basic to do everything with the right way. Even the proper MRO industry like GMO doesnt hold the candle here and public doesnt know if every year before the post Covid world they got revenue above four hundreds million dollar US and net profit around forty to fifty million US Dollar each year, far above the Aircraft "maker" PT DI who only recently got 10 million US Dollar profit.

Start by being " Realist " not " Optimist "; Optimist is for those who believe in fairy tales, the children alike.
1st Reconstruct the management system within our state owned entreprises
2nd Reorient everything from being state agency to business oriented entreprise { if MRO business & spare parts manufacturing makes more profit we can start from there instead of whole aircraft; ensure continuity of orders both domestic and foreign needs; know your market ( we live in era where Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, Leonardo, Bombardier, etc already have their realm, understand which products we do the best and focus on that )}.
3rd Being transparent and stop lying to public { PKR is hardly to be called " local made " we are just subcontractor which participations below 5% even lower on DSME 1400 ( out of 1.2 Billions US$ the share of works were just 9 Millions US$ )}

And i repeat importantly, kill that child like " optimism ", the world doesn't need that. Start being " realist " and understand where to fix and create the path to truly self owned reliance.

I kinda belief , GMF doing much much better in management and work culture compared to PT DI as GMF always working with international partner and private companies and being exposed with their stringent demands and ethic works. It actually not much if the government inject capital for GMF so they can license producing spare part for maintenance use of commercial aircraft , kinda like how ST doing with their subsidiaries. And giving more government work for GMF for maintenance jobs of the Air Force assets.

 

[Cromwell]

Lol, are you an oaf? I had clearly giving you an example of how South Korean and Turkey aircraft industry can succeed and thrived where they starting at when even they don't have basic aircraft industry when they starting the business much later compared to when Nurtanio flying his aircraft. They got it with license producing the aircraft deemed suitable enough for their own use and with many benefit to do so, they got chance to do license producing the engines, Airframe, spareparts and so on with involved other subsystem maker and creating the ecosystem. And they not stingy with their order to begin with.

There is many thing in Indonesia where even the basic path is to be skipped because many deemed such path is lacking the "face and pride" though this the basic to do everything with the right way. Even the proper MRO industry like GMO doesnt hold the candle here and public doesnt know if every year before the post Covid world they got revenue above four hundreds million dollar US and net profit around forty to fifty million US Dollar each year, far above the Aircraft "maker" PT DI who only recently got 10 million US Dollar profit.



I kinda belief , GMF doing much much better in management and work culture compared to PT DI as GMF always working with international partner and private companies and being exposed with their stringent demands and ethic works. It actually not much if the government inject capital for GMF so they can license producing spare part for maintenance use of commercial aircraft , kinda like how ST doing with their subsidiaries. And giving more government work for GMF for maintenance jobs of the Air Force assets.

South Korea and Turkey started from F-16; we should've followed them long ago by doing more than airframe manufacturing & assembly, like avionic and electronic subsystems. F-16 is simple, light, singe engine, economic, it's decent platform no wonder the market loves it

 

[Nike]

South Korea and Turkey started from F-16; we should've followed them long ago by doing more than airframe manufacturing & assembly, like avionic and electronic subsystems. F-16 is simple, light, singe engine, economic, it's decent platform no wonder the market loves it

Turkey clause for the cooperation is they will taking over US partner sharing workshare after 25 years of cooperation, this actually what differ some of us with their. They are more looking into a long way compared here, where the government trying to push and threatened the South Korean to give us more working share and technology access after found the unfairness of the clauses some of us accused our sides as not commited.

I will said God dammit, we are working for our National interest not the South Korean interest. If the clause is unfair and the South Korean seemed adamant to not giving us more, better to say goodbye.

 

[Nike]

For the extreme, if the South Korean still stubborn, better to use every way to gather the knowledge, steal them, reverse engineering them, nebeng proyek sambil tunda pembayaran and so on when we get the chance. As long as you don't get caught to do so there is no moral limitation and Shame.

We should not give a damn about their feeling or whatsoever, the priority is our National interest first.

 

[UMNOPutra]

For the extreme, if the South Korean still stubborn, better to use every way to gather the knowledge, steal them, reverse engineering them, nebeng proyek sambil tunda pembayaran and so on when we get the chance. As long as you don't get caught to do so there is no moral limitation and Shame.

We should not give a damn about their feeling or whatsoever, the priority is our National interest first.

Do you know these key words in business ... Good Faith, Business Ethic and Commitment ...

 

[Nike]

Preparation of Naval exercise

 

[Rosseu91]

Lol

"... wadya Majapahit ambedili, dene wadya Giri pada pating jengkelang ora kelar nadhahi tibaning mimis ..."

"... Majapahit troops shooting their firearms (bedil=firearm), while Giri troops fell dead because they couldn't withstand being pierced by bullets (mimis=ball bullet)..."

- Serat Darmagandhul

Lol it is really an academic mistake to quote "SERAT DARMOGANDUL" because it is fictitious, its validity is not recognized. majapahit era weapons were indeed imported from china (mongol), after all the gunpowder technology really belongs to china which was then adopted majapahit and the iron was imported from khurasan

 

[Nike]

Lol it is really an academic mistake to quote "SERAT DARMOGANDUL" because it is fictitious, its validity is not recognized. majapahit era weapons were indeed imported from china (mongol), after all the gunpowder technology really belongs to china which was then adopted majapahit and the iron was imported from khurasan

Yeah whatsoever, Majapahit is noob , and only foreigner is able to do everything. Even metalurgi technology to create keris is not belong to Javanese but China or Muslim foreigner. And our Cannon is Made from iron not bronze or the same metal used to build gamelan sets. Very LoL.

 

[initial_d]

Lol it is really an academic mistake to quote "SERAT DARMOGANDUL" because it is fictitious, its validity is not recognized. majapahit era weapons were indeed imported from china (mongol), after all the gunpowder technology really belongs to china which was then adopted majapahit and the iron was imported from khurasan

A type of cannon produced by the Majapahit Empire.
Type: Firearms
Name: CETBANG Ship Cannon
Era: Majapahit Kingdom, 14th century
Collection :
THE METROPOLITAN MUSEUM OF ART
1000 5th Avenue, New York, NY - USA
Cannon
Period: Majapahit period (1296–1520)
Date: ca. 14th century
Culture: Indonesia (Java)
Medium: Bronze
Dimensions: L. 37 7/16 in.
Classification: Metalwork
Credit Line: Gift of Mr. and Mrs. Martin Lerner, in honor of Professor Samuel Eilenberg, 1986
Accession Number: 1986.503
Indonesia
The Javanese Majapahit Empire was arguably able to encompass much of the modern day ASEAN due to its unique mastery of bronze-smithing and use of a central arsenal fed by a large number of cottage industries within the immediate region. Documentary and archeological evidence indicate that Arab or Indian traders introduced gunpowder, gonnes, muskets, blunderbusses, and cannon to the Javanese, Acehnese, and Batak via long established commercial trade routes around the early to mid 14th century CE. Portuguese and Spanish invaders were unpleasantly surprised and occasionaly even outgunned on occasion. The resurgent Singhasari Empire overtook Sriwijaya and later emerged as the Majapahit whose warfare featured the use of fire-arms and cannonade. Circa 1540 CE the Javanese, always alert for new weapons found the newly arrived Portuguese weaponry superior to that of the locally made variants. Javanese bronze breech-loaded swivel-guns, known as meriam, or erroneously as lantaka, was used widely by the Majapahit navy as well as by pirates and rival lords. The demise of the Majapahit empire and the dispersal of disaffected skilled bronze cannon-smiths to Brunei, modern Sumatra, Malaysia and the Philippines lead to widespread use, especially in the Makassar Strait.
A Chinese pirate or commercial shipwreck site[where?] yeilded a paired swivel gun, for rapid firing: one barrel would fire whiles its opposite was being reloaded, though this remains a rare find. Other archeological finds have unearthed triple-barrel and double-barrel swivel-guns, though they were not widely duplicated.
Saltpetre harvesting was recorded by Dutch and German travelers as being common in even the smallest villages and was collected from the decomposition process of large dung hills specifically piled for the purpose. The Dutch punishment for possession of unpermitted gunpowder appears to have been amputation.[unreliable source?] Ownership and manufacture of gunpowder was later prohibited by the colonial Dutch occupiers. According to a colonel McKenzie quoted in Sir Thomas Stamford Raffles, The History of Java (1817), the purest sulphur was supplied from a crater from a mountain near the straits of Bali.
Note:
The Majapahit marine fleet armed with CETBANG is highly respected by the Asian region. Consists of several sizes (1 meter to 3 meters), using low explosive high-fuel gun powder. This is different from the gunpowder found by China which is high explosive with high thrust.
Cr. To ownes
AC_Admin

 

[Indos]

A type of cannon produced by the Majapahit Empire.
Type: Firearms
Name: CETBANG Ship Cannon
Era: Majapahit Kingdom, 14th century
Collection :
THE METROPOLITAN MUSEUM OF ART
1000 5th Avenue, New York, NY - USA
Cannon
Period: Majapahit period (1296–1520)
Date: ca. 14th century
Culture: Indonesia (Java)
Medium: Bronze
Dimensions: L. 37 7/16 in.
Classification: Metalwork
Credit Line: Gift of Mr. and Mrs. Martin Lerner, in honor of Professor Samuel Eilenberg, 1986
Accession Number: 1986.503
Indonesia
The Javanese Majapahit Empire was arguably able to encompass much of the modern day ASEAN due to its unique mastery of bronze-smithing and use of a central arsenal fed by a large number of cottage industries within the immediate region. Documentary and archeological evidence indicate that Arab or Indian traders introduced gunpowder, gonnes, muskets, blunderbusses, and cannon to the Javanese, Acehnese, and Batak via long established commercial trade routes around the early to mid 14th century CE. Portuguese and Spanish invaders were unpleasantly surprised and occasionaly even outgunned on occasion. The resurgent Singhasari Empire overtook Sriwijaya and later emerged as the Majapahit whose warfare featured the use of fire-arms and cannonade. Circa 1540 CE the Javanese, always alert for new weapons found the newly arrived Portuguese weaponry superior to that of the locally made variants. Javanese bronze breech-loaded swivel-guns, known as meriam, or erroneously as lantaka, was used widely by the Majapahit navy as well as by pirates and rival lords. The demise of the Majapahit empire and the dispersal of disaffected skilled bronze cannon-smiths to Brunei, modern Sumatra, Malaysia and the Philippines lead to widespread use, especially in the Makassar Strait.
A Chinese pirate or commercial shipwreck site[where?] yeilded a paired swivel gun, for rapid firing: one barrel would fire whiles its opposite was being reloaded, though this remains a rare find. Other archeological finds have unearthed triple-barrel and double-barrel swivel-guns, though they were not widely duplicated.
Saltpetre harvesting was recorded by Dutch and German travelers as being common in even the smallest villages and was collected from the decomposition process of large dung hills specifically piled for the purpose. The Dutch punishment for possession of unpermitted gunpowder appears to have been amputation.[unreliable source?] Ownership and manufacture of gunpowder was later prohibited by the colonial Dutch occupiers. According to a colonel McKenzie quoted in Sir Thomas Stamford Raffles, The History of Java (1817), the purest sulphur was supplied from a crater from a mountain near the straits of Bali.
Note:
The Majapahit marine fleet armed with CETBANG is highly respected by the Asian region. Consists of several sizes (1 meter to 3 meters), using low explosive high-fuel gun powder. This is different from the gunpowder found by China which is high explosive with high thrust.
Cr. To ownes
AC_Admin

We are talking about rifle (most complex weapon at that time) that our ancestor never think to make it our selves although there are more than 200 years to prepare to start manufacturing it. The reason of not making it most probably similar like the reason brought by those who oppose KFX/IFX program in Today event. Or in other word, we are going to repeat the biggest mistake that our ancestor did during ancient time.

They are importing from other nation and when Dutch can perfectly impose sea blockade, our ancestor start loosing the war. And Dutch do the invasion step by step.

Cetbang is a canon.

 

[initial_d]

We are talking about rifle (most complex weapon at that time) that our ancestor never think to make it our selves although there are more than 200 years to prepare to start manufacturing it. The reason of not making it most probably similar like the reason brought by those who oppose KFX/IFX program in Today event. Or in other word, we are going to repeat the biggest mistake that our ancestor did during ancient time.

They are importing from other nation and when Dutch can perfectly impose sea blockade, our ancestor start loosing the war. And Dutch do the invasion step by step.

Cetbang is a canon.

did you mean like this!?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_arquebus
or this one
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istinggar
The predecessor of firearms, the pole gun (bedil tombak), was recorded as being used by Java in 1413.[10][11]:245 However the knowledge of making "true" firearms in the archipelago came after the middle of 15th century. It was brought by the Islamic nations of West Asia, most probably the Arabs. The precise year of introduction is unknown, but it may be safely concluded to be no earlier than 1460.[12]:23 Before the arrival of the Portuguese in Southeast Asia, the Malays already possessed primitive firearms, the Java arquebus.[13] This firearm has a very long barrel (up to 2.2 m in length), and during the Portuguese conquest of malacca (1511), it is proven to able to penetrate a ship's hull to the other side.[14][12] However the lock mechanism of the gun is very crude.[13]
The Portuguese in Goa and Malacca independently produced their own matchlock firearms. Starting in the 1513, the tradition of German-Bohemian gun making were merged with Turkish gun making traditions.[15]:39–41 This resulted in Indo-Portuguese tradition of matchlocks. Indian craftsmen modified the design by introducing a very short, almost pistol-like buttstock held against the cheek, not the shoulder, when aiming. They also reduced the caliber and made the gun lighter and more balanced. This was a hit with the Portuguese who did a lot of fighting aboard ship and on river craft, and valued a more compact gun.[15]:41[16]

can someone post the picture of javanese arquebus or istinggar here, I don't know why i cannot upload it via my cell phone