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We are talking about rifle (most complex weapon at that time) that our ancestor never think to make it our selves although there are more than 200 years to prepare to start manufacturing it. The reason of not making it most probably similar like the reason brought by those who oppose KFX/IFX program in Today event. Or in other word, we are going to repeat the biggest mistake that our ancestor did during ancient time.

They are importing from other nation and when Dutch can perfectly impose sea blockade, our ancestor start loosing the war. And Dutch do the invasion step by step.

Cetbang is a canon.

0e70082858762ee43785f3024b8edaf8--medieval-weapons-th-century.jpg

Just lol, lah. Rifle even not invented until dawn of Napoleonic war era (rifle muskets), at the same time most of Nusantara region is at the mercy of European power.

And are you an oaf? Which one here doesnt want Indonesia to become self sufficient in military equipment? But it is self sufficient in military equipment is the same to follow KFX by hook and crook? And at the same time sacrifice our National interest and obvious reason to joint KFX/IFX program in the first place? Get real lah you
 
We are talking about rifle (most complex weapon at that time) that our ancestor never think to make it our selves although there are more than 200 years to prepare to start manufacturing it. The reason of not making it most probably similar like the reason brought by those who oppose KFX/IFX program in Today event. Or in other word, we are going to repeat the biggest mistake that our ancestor did during ancient time.

They are importing from other nation and when Dutch can perfectly impose sea blockade, our ancestor start loosing the war. And Dutch do the invasion step by step.

Cetbang is a canon.

0e70082858762ee43785f3024b8edaf8--medieval-weapons-th-century.jpg

Dude, rifle came from the word rifling, came into existence in late 19th century. During the pre islamic and high islamic kingdoms era, nobody had rifles, not even the dutch. Everyone used arquebus or musket. What are you talking about?

Lol it is really an academic mistake to quote "SERAT DARMOGANDUL" because it is fictitious, its validity is not recognized. majapahit era weapons were indeed imported from china (mongol), after all the gunpowder technology really belongs to china which was then adopted majapahit and the iron was imported from khurasan

Any historical data to support that majapahit cannot produce canon and arquebus?
 
Dude, rifle came from the word rifling, came into existence in late 19th century. During the pre islamic and high islamic kingdoms era, nobody had rifles, not even the dutch. Everyone used arquebus or musket. What are you talking about?

Yup what I mean is senapan (or it can be in different names in English base on its development). I should have said firearm.
 
This is an opinion piece so don't take this as fact.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Ind...IGm5F8gpKBH1CI2gMSGkLSMq7ChGBizuov8SYqQVAuqug


"The Natuna Sea, which surrounds a chain of Indonesian islands off the northwest coast of Borneo, has become the latest point of dispute in the fight between China and its Southeast Asian neighbors over the South China Sea.

Indonesia, which claims the Natuna Sea as part of its exclusive economic zone, or EEZ, has formally joined the fray against China, which says it has rights over it and nearby waters encompassed by its "nine-dash line" map-marking. On June 18, Indonesian Foreign Minister Retno Marsudi said there was no reason to negotiate with China on fishing activities around the Natuna archipelago.

But what if China were to ignore the Jakarta government's diplomatic muscle-flexing and continue to send warships, coastguard vessels and maritime militia boats to assert its "historical" fishing rights in the area?
Indonesia has no way to prevent Chinese incursions in the Natuna Sea, which borders the southwestern edge of the South China Sea, at least on its own. Given that Southeast Asian solidarity against Beijing is not in sight, Indonesia is left with only one viable option -- upgrading its military relationship with the U.S.

Indonesian naval forces have often had to push back against Chinese fishing trawlers escorted by military or armed Coast Guard ships. The latest incident occurred in December, when Chinese vessels entered the Natuna Sea, prompting Indonesia to deploy fighter jets and warships in the area.

Indonesian F-16 fighter jet flies above the nation's naval ship in the Natuna Sea on January 10: Indonesia has no way to prevent Chinese incursions at least on its own. © Antara Foto/Reuters
Indonesia has now grounded its protest in law. In two notes lodged to U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres on May 26 and June 12, the Indonesian government said China's nine-dash line had no legal basis and ran against the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, or UNCLOS.

Furthermore, the Indonesians voiced support for the 2016 ruling by the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague which dismissed Chinese territorial claims to the region. The case before the international tribunal was filed by the Philippines which, along with Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan and Brunei, opposes China's occupation and militarization of islets, coral reefs and shoals in the South China Sea.

But as retired Indonesian Admiral Eden Gunawan has said, the UNCLOS legal framework is not strong enough to stop Chinese and other foreign fishing boats from encroaching on his country's EEZ.

With more than 17,500 islands and numerous chokepoints, Indonesia is vulnerable to external attacks. The Indonesian Navy has adopted a defense-in-depth strategy to counter foreign intrusions in its EEZ and protect its maritime borders. In essence, the Indonesians send their coastguard ships and warships to face foreign vessels of the same type, in accordance with UNCLOS rules.

At the moment, Indonesia has deployed some naval units in the Natuna waters. It is also committed to building up an air and naval base at Besar, the main island in the Natuna Regency, or sub-province, and increasing the presence of local fishing boats to exercise sovereignty over the area.

However, the coronavirus pandemic has hit the country's economy hard, pushing the Jakarta government to trim military spending by $588 million this year -- the initial military budget for 2020 stood at $9.3 billion.

Like other Southeast Asian nations, Indonesia would prefer not to pick a side in the U.S.-China rivalry. The status quo has always been the first option for Jakarta and its neighbors, with the U.S. balancing China.

Unity and coordination among the 10 members of ASEAN on the South China Sea issue would certainly help deter China's assertiveness, but it is a long shot at the moment. This is the same for signing a binding code of conduct for activities in the strategic waterway between the Southeast Asian bloc and Beijing.

Against this backdrop, with the tit-for-tat competition between the two powers escalating, neutrality risks becoming unsustainable for regional actors at odds with the Chinese.

The Indonesian government should recognize the harsh reality and act accordingly. The idea of expanding military ties with the U.S. finds support from some in the Indonesian military's senior ranks. They say their country has been cooperating militarily with Washington for more than 40 years, focusing on joint exercises and drills, but believe such a cooperation needs to be taken to a higher level, similar to an alliance, to make sure China will not dictate its policy in the region.

The upgraded relationship could be modeled after the U.S.-Singapore military pact, which grants U.S. forces access to the Singapore's naval and air bases, including the deployment on a rotational basis of spy planes and littoral combat ships.

The Indonesian Navy could coordinate its defense-in-depth approach with U.S. freedom of navigation operations in the South China Sea, and the U.S. Navy could contribute to patrolling the sprawling Indonesian archipelago.
In this way, Indonesia would flesh out its defenses against the Chinese, while the U.S. would gain an active partner in its efforts to contain China within the China seas and the Strait of Taiwan -- an American version of Beijing's anti-access, area denial strategy.

Falling short of a full alliance with Washington, Singapore has kept enough elasticity to maintain close links with China. Indonesia's enhanced defense relationship with the U.S. should be established on the same assumption."
 
Our senayan member will reject the idea with full alliance with washington..akan jadi bola liar kemana mana tu isu.. dr embargo sampai palestina.
I think its better that we do what like soeharto do in past..jaman itu kita jadi salahsatu sekutu penting dikawasan..we cooperate with US..from Vietnam war,timtim,and afghanistan.. and some say 1st gulf war (cuma rumor yg ga bisa dibuktiin)
 
This is an opinion piece so don't take this as fact.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Ind...IGm5F8gpKBH1CI2gMSGkLSMq7ChGBizuov8SYqQVAuqug


"The Natuna Sea, which surrounds a chain of Indonesian islands off the northwest coast of Borneo, has become the latest point of dispute in the fight between China and its Southeast Asian neighbors over the South China Sea.

Indonesia, which claims the Natuna Sea as part of its exclusive economic zone, or EEZ, has formally joined the fray against China, which says it has rights over it and nearby waters encompassed by its "nine-dash line" map-marking. On June 18, Indonesian Foreign Minister Retno Marsudi said there was no reason to negotiate with China on fishing activities around the Natuna archipelago.

But what if China were to ignore the Jakarta government's diplomatic muscle-flexing and continue to send warships, coastguard vessels and maritime militia boats to assert its "historical" fishing rights in the area?
Indonesia has no way to prevent Chinese incursions in the Natuna Sea, which borders the southwestern edge of the South China Sea, at least on its own. Given that Southeast Asian solidarity against Beijing is not in sight, Indonesia is left with only one viable option -- upgrading its military relationship with the U.S.

Indonesian naval forces have often had to push back against Chinese fishing trawlers escorted by military or armed Coast Guard ships. The latest incident occurred in December, when Chinese vessels entered the Natuna Sea, prompting Indonesia to deploy fighter jets and warships in the area.

Indonesian F-16 fighter jet flies above the nation's naval ship in the Natuna Sea on January 10: Indonesia has no way to prevent Chinese incursions at least on its own. © Antara Foto/Reuters
Indonesia has now grounded its protest in law. In two notes lodged to U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres on May 26 and June 12, the Indonesian government said China's nine-dash line had no legal basis and ran against the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, or UNCLOS.

Furthermore, the Indonesians voiced support for the 2016 ruling by the Permanent Court of Arbitration in The Hague which dismissed Chinese territorial claims to the region. The case before the international tribunal was filed by the Philippines which, along with Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan and Brunei, opposes China's occupation and militarization of islets, coral reefs and shoals in the South China Sea.

But as retired Indonesian Admiral Eden Gunawan has said, the UNCLOS legal framework is not strong enough to stop Chinese and other foreign fishing boats from encroaching on his country's EEZ.

With more than 17,500 islands and numerous chokepoints, Indonesia is vulnerable to external attacks. The Indonesian Navy has adopted a defense-in-depth strategy to counter foreign intrusions in its EEZ and protect its maritime borders. In essence, the Indonesians send their coastguard ships and warships to face foreign vessels of the same type, in accordance with UNCLOS rules.

At the moment, Indonesia has deployed some naval units in the Natuna waters. It is also committed to building up an air and naval base at Besar, the main island in the Natuna Regency, or sub-province, and increasing the presence of local fishing boats to exercise sovereignty over the area.

However, the coronavirus pandemic has hit the country's economy hard, pushing the Jakarta government to trim military spending by $588 million this year -- the initial military budget for 2020 stood at $9.3 billion.

Like other Southeast Asian nations, Indonesia would prefer not to pick a side in the U.S.-China rivalry. The status quo has always been the first option for Jakarta and its neighbors, with the U.S. balancing China.

Unity and coordination among the 10 members of ASEAN on the South China Sea issue would certainly help deter China's assertiveness, but it is a long shot at the moment. This is the same for signing a binding code of conduct for activities in the strategic waterway between the Southeast Asian bloc and Beijing.

Against this backdrop, with the tit-for-tat competition between the two powers escalating, neutrality risks becoming unsustainable for regional actors at odds with the Chinese.

The Indonesian government should recognize the harsh reality and act accordingly. The idea of expanding military ties with the U.S. finds support from some in the Indonesian military's senior ranks. They say their country has been cooperating militarily with Washington for more than 40 years, focusing on joint exercises and drills, but believe such a cooperation needs to be taken to a higher level, similar to an alliance, to make sure China will not dictate its policy in the region.

The upgraded relationship could be modeled after the U.S.-Singapore military pact, which grants U.S. forces access to the Singapore's naval and air bases, including the deployment on a rotational basis of spy planes and littoral combat ships.

The Indonesian Navy could coordinate its defense-in-depth approach with U.S. freedom of navigation operations in the South China Sea, and the U.S. Navy could contribute to patrolling the sprawling Indonesian archipelago.
In this way, Indonesia would flesh out its defenses against the Chinese, while the U.S. would gain an active partner in its efforts to contain China within the China seas and the Strait of Taiwan -- an American version of Beijing's anti-access, area denial strategy.

Falling short of a full alliance with Washington, Singapore has kept enough elasticity to maintain close links with China. Indonesia's enhanced defense relationship with the U.S. should be established on the same assumption."
I understand the logic behind this article however if we implement this for real; i can't imagine how public will support this

Just lol, lah. Rifle even not invented until dawn of Napoleonic war era (rifle muskets), at the same time most of Nusantara region is at the mercy of European power.

And are you an oaf? Which one here doesnt want Indonesia to become self sufficient in military equipment? But it is self sufficient in military equipment is the same to follow KFX by hook and crook? And at the same time sacrifice our National interest and obvious reason to joint KFX/IFX program in the first place? Get real lah you
I like your response, truly
 
I understand the logic behind this article however if we implement this for real; i can't imagine how public will support this
To be fair, we're pretty much already well within the US sphere, just not publicly. Anybody that genuinely thinks we're not is in denial at this point.

What do they think the HUGE new annex over at the US embassy is for? Processing visas?
 
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To be fair, we're pretty much already well within the US sphere, just not publicly. Anybody that genuinely thinks we're not is in denial at this point.

What do they think the HUGE new annex over at the US embassy is for? Processing visas?

BBQ party lah, more people more merrier
 
o be fair, we're pretty much already well within the US sphere, just not publicly. Anybody that genuinely thinks we're not is in denial at this point.

What do they think the HUGE new annex over at the US embassy is for? Processing visas?
Dude whats up with you and your US thingy really? I can understand your fascination about US, but I think we get your point already. US relation with us is always going to be up and down. Sure US has special place in our diplomatic relation, simply because they are Superpower. Is that mean we have to "bow down" and publicly stated that we need US then go with full fledged alliance? Come onnn...

Our founding father put "bebas aktif" in our constitution for a reason. They know superpower Nations will try their best to influence Indonesia to their full alliance side thus locking our political/economic move, With this "bebas aktif" we can reject any full military aliance with respect to them as well. And this also giving us more rooms to pasang dua kaki thus benefit our nation more. If we all going to do it under the table for our own interest and lean more to one side so be it, Im sure any sane and educated person in Indonesia who have political knowledge wont mind.

Seems like with all those arsenal purchase "test the water" move by Prabowo and his team now bear fruit. The fish bite the bait? :lol::lol: Now they want to sell more arms to us, and hopefully we got what we wanted and have a great deal :victory: This is one of Prabowo strong side, play with media while doing kasak kusuk dibelakang. This is nice specially after coming from previous pompeo statement and I quote "Pompeo's announcement Monday rejects almost all of China's claims in the region, including those around the Scarborough Reef and Spratly Islands among others claimed by the Philippines, as well as the waters surrounding the Vanguard Bank near Malaysia, the Luconia Shoals near Malaysia and the Natuna Besar near Indonesia." :lock::lock: Our diplomat and government is doing it right :cheers:

https://www.usnews.com/news/nationa...take-a-stand-against-china-in-south-china-sea


Slash the Typhoons and it'll be a good setup
and here we go again :lol::lol::crazy::crazy:
 
France give Us $30b
48 rafale
Scorpene
Gowind (im prefer mistrale class)
SAM
US of A ??
Maybe we can ask US permission for Scalp
Since Scalp use some US material part, or maybe tomahawk.. we need cruise missile range about 500km till 750km..
F15ex or F16v,F18Suphorn??
Much more tech acces for ifx/lfx
 
Dude whats up with you and your US thingy really? I can understand your fascination about US, but I think we get your point already. US relation with us is always going to be up and down. Sure US has special place in our diplomatic relation, simply because they are Superpower. Is that mean we have to "bow down" and publicly stated that we need US then go with full fledged alliance? Come onnn...

Our founding father put "bebas aktif" in our constitution for a reason. They know superpower Nations will try their best to influence Indonesia to their full alliance side thus locking our political/economic move, With this "bebas aktif" we can reject any full military aliance with respect to them as well. And this also giving us more rooms to pasang dua kaki thus benefit our nation more. If we all going to do it under the table for our own interest and lean more to one side so be it, Im sure any sane and educated person in Indonesia who have political knowledge wont mind.


Seems like with all those arsenal purchase "test the water" move by Prabowo and his team now bear fruit. The fish bite the bait? :lol::lol: Now they want to sell more arms to us, and hopefully we got what we wanted and have a great deal :victory: This is one of Prabowo strong side, play with media while doing kasak kusuk dibelakang. This is nice specially after coming from previous pompeo statement and I quote "Pompeo's announcement Monday rejects almost all of China's claims in the region, including those around the Scarborough Reef and Spratly Islands among others claimed by the Philippines, as well as the waters surrounding the Vanguard Bank near Malaysia, the Luconia Shoals near Malaysia and the Natuna Besar near Indonesia." :lock::lock: Our diplomat and government is doing it right :cheers:

https://www.usnews.com/news/nationa...take-a-stand-against-china-in-south-china-sea



and here we go again :lol::lol::crazy::crazy:
You right and @Chestnut right too.
Like it or not, realty is we are in US of A.. yup we have Bebas aktif.. but how far we can carry on that Bebas aktif..
In 45 till late 59 we are with US, 60 till 65 we are with USSR, 70 till 2014 back to US, now we much more close to china..look what happen,They stabbing us in SCS.
There is no Bebas Aktif in this world.
The important one is how good we can play our role in global position. Theres many opportunity in SCS conflict that we can use for our interest..
 

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